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Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
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TigerK Offline
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Post: #1
Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
Its gotta be one or the other. I mean even those of us who don't think he's the greatest coach at this point keep on hearing how great a recruiter Josh is. Is he or isn't he? Its gotta be one thing or the other. Either his players and classes are overrated or once they get here he's not doing a good job of coaching them. If you do want to say the classes aren't as good as they were previously stated to be then that means all these "experts" or recruiting services have been wrong about all of them except year one of course when he only had leftovers from Cal's stay. I mean other than that he's had some pretty high ones as of late. Which is it?
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2014 04:00 AM by TigerK.)
03-24-2014 03:59 AM
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memphisike Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
BOTH!
03-24-2014 07:25 AM
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Halfcourt Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
The product on the floor last night was the result and responsibility of their coach and leader. No getting around that.
03-24-2014 07:30 AM
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450bench Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 07:30 AM)Halfcourt Wrote:  The product on the floor last night was the result and responsibility of their coach and leader. No getting around that.

Yep
03-24-2014 08:08 AM
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paulnatlanta Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
The lack of player development is obvious, and that falls at the coaches feet. I thought Chris Crawford was better as a freshman than as a senior. Dude has NBA range but his coach can't figure out how to get him an open shot. Joe Jackson was overrated. He just never had a point guard mentality or IQ for the game. Andre Turner and Elliot Perry were far better point guards than Jackson. Hell, I would take Otis Jackson over Joe.
03-24-2014 08:16 AM
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presskh Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 08:16 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  The lack of player development is obvious, and that falls at the coaches feet. I thought Chris Crawford was better as a freshman than as a senior. Dude has NBA range but his coach can't figure out how to get him an open shot. Joe Jackson was overrated. He just never had a point guard mentality or IQ for the game. Andre Turner and Elliot Perry were far better point guards than Jackson. Hell, I would take Otis Jackson over Joe.

Not sure about Jackson. May have just been lack of development by the coaching staff. It's funny how Tarik Black seemed to improve much more in his single season at KU than 3 years at Memphis. I think Pastner knows the game but just can't communicate with his players - he needs to hire some "fire and brimstone" assistants who can.
03-24-2014 08:22 AM
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blutgr39 Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
I agree with the fire and brimstone stuff. Also I think the classes were overrated.
03-24-2014 08:27 AM
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midtowncowboy Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 08:08 AM)450bench Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 07:30 AM)Halfcourt Wrote:  The product on the floor last night was the result and responsibility of their coach and leader. No getting around that.

Yep

Sure it was. With all that offensive talent headed to the NBA we have no excuses for not beating everyone on our schedule.
03-24-2014 08:29 AM
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midtowncowboy Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 08:22 AM)presskh Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:16 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  The lack of player development is obvious, and that falls at the coaches feet. I thought Chris Crawford was better as a freshman than as a senior. Dude has NBA range but his coach can't figure out how to get him an open shot. Joe Jackson was overrated. He just never had a point guard mentality or IQ for the game. Andre Turner and Elliot Perry were far better point guards than Jackson. Hell, I would take Otis Jackson over Joe.

Not sure about Jackson. May have just been lack of development by the coaching staff. It's funny how Tarik Black seemed to improve much more in his single season at KU than 3 years at Memphis. I think Pastner knows the game but just can't communicate with his players - he needs to hire some "fire and brimstone" assistants who can.

Key word from you blathering is 'seemed'. Tarik was surrounded by 2 players, both who are better than any player Memphis has had in the last 12 years not named Rose, CDR or Tyreke. And he didn't do ****.
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2014 08:32 AM by midtowncowboy.)
03-24-2014 08:31 AM
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bobby jo Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
I agree that player development seems to be lacking.

I don't like the idea that we have to or should bring in a certain assistant to have to teach defense or bring some toughness or discipline to the team. That should always be on the head coach.

Good assistants are essential, and they each play certain roles, but the head coach should be able to address all issues that the team might be experiencing.
03-24-2014 08:32 AM
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paulnatlanta Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 08:22 AM)presskh Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:16 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  The lack of player development is obvious, and that falls at the coaches feet. I thought Chris Crawford was better as a freshman than as a senior. Dude has NBA range but his coach can't figure out how to get him an open shot. Joe Jackson was overrated. He just never had a point guard mentality or IQ for the game. Andre Turner and Elliot Perry were far better point guards than Jackson. Hell, I would take Otis Jackson over Joe.

Not sure about Jackson. May have just been lack of development by the coaching staff. It's funny how Tarik Black seemed to improve much more in his single season at KU than 3 years at Memphis. I think Pastner knows the game but just can't communicate with his players - he needs to hire some "fire and brimstone" assistants who can.
I agree Pastner is not up to par developing his players. But, Black averaged 3 points and 3 rebounds a game for KU. He was always in foul trouble. He had a few nice games but he wasn't any better.
03-24-2014 08:35 AM
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MemTGRS Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 08:35 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:22 AM)presskh Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:16 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  The lack of player development is obvious, and that falls at the coaches feet. I thought Chris Crawford was better as a freshman than as a senior. Dude has NBA range but his coach can't figure out how to get him an open shot. Joe Jackson was overrated. He just never had a point guard mentality or IQ for the game. Andre Turner and Elliot Perry were far better point guards than Jackson. Hell, I would take Otis Jackson over Joe.

Not sure about Jackson. May have just been lack of development by the coaching staff. It's funny how Tarik Black seemed to improve much more in his single season at KU than 3 years at Memphis. I think Pastner knows the game but just can't communicate with his players - he needs to hire some "fire and brimstone" assistants who can.
I agree Pastner is not up to par developing his players. But, Black averaged 3 points and 3 rebounds a game for KU. He was always in foul trouble. He had a few nice games but he wasn't any better.

Good post.

I try to be benign or positive when posting. As I drove the 3½ hours for me for the weekend, perhaps this allows me to note a few things underlying in my mind.

It appears to me that Josh is an average coach on the bench. What, until recently, separated him was his relentless recruiting efforts. And, until this class, I thought the results were outstanding.

In my mind, this next class is eye opening. With the exception of Magee, he was repeatedly shut out of all the high profile players he recruited. Two of the JC guys signed were ones we had barely heard of and not discussed. If a local rival had this type of rated (bolding because there is the chance, of course, that this class will be fine) effort when losing five seniors, let's face it, I think we'd be jumping on it as a doomsday sign. The runner up in the Lyle effort extends that.

And I know very well "these things work themselves out" but the 2015 class that is supposed to be so loaded appears at risk due to mathematics. I do feel the staff has erred tremendously in producing class balance.
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2014 08:46 AM by MemTGRS.)
03-24-2014 08:46 AM
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paulnatlanta Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 08:46 AM)MemTGRS Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:35 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:22 AM)presskh Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:16 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  The lack of player development is obvious, and that falls at the coaches feet. I thought Chris Crawford was better as a freshman than as a senior. Dude has NBA range but his coach can't figure out how to get him an open shot. Joe Jackson was overrated. He just never had a point guard mentality or IQ for the game. Andre Turner and Elliot Perry were far better point guards than Jackson. Hell, I would take Otis Jackson over Joe.

Not sure about Jackson. May have just been lack of development by the coaching staff. It's funny how Tarik Black seemed to improve much more in his single season at KU than 3 years at Memphis. I think Pastner knows the game but just can't communicate with his players - he needs to hire some "fire and brimstone" assistants who can.
I agree Pastner is not up to par developing his players. But, Black averaged 3 points and 3 rebounds a game for KU. He was always in foul trouble. He had a few nice games but he wasn't any better.

Good post.

I try to be benign or positive when posting. As I drove the 3½ hours for me for the weekend, perhaps this allows me to note a few things underlying in my mind.

It appears to me that Josh is an average coach on the bench. What, until recently, separated him was his relentless recruiting efforts. And, until this class, I thought the results were outstanding.

In my mind, this next class is eye opening. With the exception of Magee, he was repeatedly shut out of all the high profile players he recruited. Two of the JC guys signed were ones we had barely heard of and not discussed. If a local rival had this type of rated (bolding because there is the chance, of course, that this class will be fine) effort when losing five seniors, let's face it, I think we'd be jumping on it as a doomsday sign. The runner up in the Lyle effort extends that.

And I know very well "these things work themselves out" but the 2015 class that is supposed to be so loaded appears at risk due to mathematics. I do feel the staff has erred tremendously in producing class balance.

I agree completely. Josh road the coattails of Calipari and Lute olson on the recruiting trails and got the benefit of the doubt for years. No reputation is better than a bad one. But the player development disasters are starting to pile up on his own reputation now. Players now look at Adonis Thomas as a cautionary tale. Pastner has to prove he can develop guys and put them in the NBA or the recruiting trail is going to get a lot tougher.
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2014 08:56 AM by paulnatlanta.)
03-24-2014 08:55 AM
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midtowncowboy Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 08:16 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  The lack of player development is obvious, and that falls at the coaches feet. I thought Chris Crawford was better as a freshman than as a senior. Dude has NBA range but his coach can't figure out how to get him an open shot. Joe Jackson was overrated. He just never had a point guard mentality or IQ for the game. Andre Turner and Elliot Perry were far better point guards than Jackson. Hell, I would take Otis Jackson over Joe.

03-lmfao

Maybe against the Bluff City defense.
03-24-2014 09:25 AM
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midtowncowboy Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 08:55 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:46 AM)MemTGRS Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:35 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:22 AM)presskh Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:16 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  The lack of player development is obvious, and that falls at the coaches feet. I thought Chris Crawford was better as a freshman than as a senior. Dude has NBA range but his coach can't figure out how to get him an open shot. Joe Jackson was overrated. He just never had a point guard mentality or IQ for the game. Andre Turner and Elliot Perry were far better point guards than Jackson. Hell, I would take Otis Jackson over Joe.

Not sure about Jackson. May have just been lack of development by the coaching staff. It's funny how Tarik Black seemed to improve much more in his single season at KU than 3 years at Memphis. I think Pastner knows the game but just can't communicate with his players - he needs to hire some "fire and brimstone" assistants who can.
I agree Pastner is not up to par developing his players. But, Black averaged 3 points and 3 rebounds a game for KU. He was always in foul trouble. He had a few nice games but he wasn't any better.

Good post.

I try to be benign or positive when posting. As I drove the 3½ hours for me for the weekend, perhaps this allows me to note a few things underlying in my mind.

It appears to me that Josh is an average coach on the bench. What, until recently, separated him was his relentless recruiting efforts. And, until this class, I thought the results were outstanding.

In my mind, this next class is eye opening. With the exception of Magee, he was repeatedly shut out of all the high profile players he recruited. Two of the JC guys signed were ones we had barely heard of and not discussed. If a local rival had this type of rated (bolding because there is the chance, of course, that this class will be fine) effort when losing five seniors, let's face it, I think we'd be jumping on it as a doomsday sign. The runner up in the Lyle effort extends that.

And I know very well "these things work themselves out" but the 2015 class that is supposed to be so loaded appears at risk due to mathematics. I do feel the staff has erred tremendously in producing class balance.

I agree completely. Josh road the coattails of Calipari and Lute olson on the recruiting trails and got the benefit of the doubt for years. No reputation is better than a bad one. But the player development disasters are starting to pile up on his own reputation now. Players now look at Adonis Thomas as a cautionary tale. Pastner has to prove he can develop guys and put them in the NBA or the recruiting trail is going to get a lot tougher.

I think your opinion could not be further from reality.

If you think a coach 'develops' a player from an above average college player to an NBA player, you are crazy. You use AT as an example and the guy still has a hard time putting the ball in the basket when he is defended. And doesn't have handles. Other than that, he looks good getting off the bus.
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2014 09:29 AM by midtowncowboy.)
03-24-2014 09:28 AM
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Halfcourt Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 08:29 AM)midtowncowboy Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:08 AM)450bench Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 07:30 AM)Halfcourt Wrote:  The product on the floor last night was the result and responsibility of their coach and leader. No getting around that.

Yep

Sure it was. With all that offensive talent headed to the NBA we have no excuses for not beating everyone on our schedule.

I personally think it is unreasonable to think that we would win every game. But our lack of defensive consistancy, inability to run offensive sets to consistantly get "good" open shots, lack of focus and motivation is not all on the players (overated or not).

We now have a very good sample size to analyze from CJP's first five years. More often than not, when the Tigers play a team with comparable talent, with a structured offense/defense, these Tiger teams seem to get overwhelmed, if they fall behind.
03-24-2014 09:46 AM
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midtowncowboy Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 09:46 AM)Halfcourt Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:29 AM)midtowncowboy Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:08 AM)450bench Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 07:30 AM)Halfcourt Wrote:  The product on the floor last night was the result and responsibility of their coach and leader. No getting around that.

Yep

Sure it was. With all that offensive talent headed to the NBA we have no excuses for not beating everyone on our schedule.

I personally think it is unreasonable to think that we would win every game. But our lack of defensive consistancy, inability to run offensive sets to consistantly get "good" open shots, lack of focus and motivation is not all on the players (overated or not).

We now have a very good sample size to analyze from CJP's first five years. More often than not, when the Tigers play a team with comparable talent, with a structured offense/defense, these Tiger teams seem to get overwhelmed, if they fall behind.

Last night we had as many wide open 3's as any team in the tourney. But we didn't make them. That, with the lack of willingness to defend from our perimeter, we have no chance against a #1 seed.
03-24-2014 09:52 AM
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midtowncowboy Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 09:46 AM)Halfcourt Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:29 AM)midtowncowboy Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:08 AM)450bench Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 07:30 AM)Halfcourt Wrote:  The product on the floor last night was the result and responsibility of their coach and leader. No getting around that.

Yep

Sure it was. With all that offensive talent headed to the NBA we have no excuses for not beating everyone on our schedule.

I personally think it is unreasonable to think that we would win every game. But our lack of defensive consistancy, inability to run offensive sets to consistantly get "good" open shots, lack of focus and motivation is not all on the players (overated or not).

We now have a very good sample size to analyze from CJP's first five years. More often than not, when the Tigers play a team with comparable talent, with a structured offense/defense, these Tiger teams seem to get overwhelmed, if they fall behind.

No leader on the floor. No scorer on the floor.
03-24-2014 09:53 AM
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Halfcourt Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 09:53 AM)midtowncowboy Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 09:46 AM)Halfcourt Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:29 AM)midtowncowboy Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:08 AM)450bench Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 07:30 AM)Halfcourt Wrote:  The product on the floor last night was the result and responsibility of their coach and leader. No getting around that.

Yep

Sure it was. With all that offensive talent headed to the NBA we have no excuses for not beating everyone on our schedule.

I personally think it is unreasonable to think that we would win every game. But our lack of defensive consistancy, inability to run offensive sets to consistantly get "good" open shots, lack of focus and motivation is not all on the players (overated or not).

We now have a very good sample size to analyze from CJP's first five years. More often than not, when the Tigers play a team with comparable talent, with a structured offense/defense, these Tiger teams seem to get overwhelmed, if they fall behind.

No leader on the floor. No scorer on the floor.

Isn't it the responsibility of personell and player management on the coach.

I disagree with the part about having scorers on the floor. This is the one thing we had plenty of. Now getting them in a position to hit a high percentage shot, that is another argument.
03-24-2014 10:00 AM
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paulnatlanta Offline
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RE: Recruiting or Coaching so which is it?
(03-24-2014 09:28 AM)midtowncowboy Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:55 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:46 AM)MemTGRS Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:35 AM)paulnatlanta Wrote:  
(03-24-2014 08:22 AM)presskh Wrote:  Not sure about Jackson. May have just been lack of development by the coaching staff. It's funny how Tarik Black seemed to improve much more in his single season at KU than 3 years at Memphis. I think Pastner knows the game but just can't communicate with his players - he needs to hire some "fire and brimstone" assistants who can.
I agree Pastner is not up to par developing his players. But, Black averaged 3 points and 3 rebounds a game for KU. He was always in foul trouble. He had a few nice games but he wasn't any better.

Good post.

I try to be benign or positive when posting. As I drove the 3½ hours for me for the weekend, perhaps this allows me to note a few things underlying in my mind.

It appears to me that Josh is an average coach on the bench. What, until recently, separated him was his relentless recruiting efforts. And, until this class, I thought the results were outstanding.

In my mind, this next class is eye opening. With the exception of Magee, he was repeatedly shut out of all the high profile players he recruited. Two of the JC guys signed were ones we had barely heard of and not discussed. If a local rival had this type of rated (bolding because there is the chance, of course, that this class will be fine) effort when losing five seniors, let's face it, I think we'd be jumping on it as a doomsday sign. The runner up in the Lyle effort extends that.

And I know very well "these things work themselves out" but the 2015 class that is supposed to be so loaded appears at risk due to mathematics. I do feel the staff has erred tremendously in producing class balance.

I agree completely. Josh road the coattails of Calipari and Lute olson on the recruiting trails and got the benefit of the doubt for years. No reputation is better than a bad one. But the player development disasters are starting to pile up on his own reputation now. Players now look at Adonis Thomas as a cautionary tale. Pastner has to prove he can develop guys and put them in the NBA or the recruiting trail is going to get a lot tougher.

I think your opinion could not be further from reality.

If you think a coach 'develops' a player from an above average college player to an NBA player, you are crazy. You use AT as an example and the guy still has a hard time putting the ball in the basket when he is defended. And doesn't have handles. Other than that, he looks good getting off the bus.

Well, the "reality" is that the top recruits pick the schools where they believe they are most likely to become better basketball players. JP has a lot of top recruiting classes but can you name a player who got better under his teaching? Good luck with that "reality" check.
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2014 10:24 AM by paulnatlanta.)
03-24-2014 10:23 AM
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