I think WVU would be much better off in the ACC, big 10 or sec. Yet, they are much better off in the big 12 than the AAC. I doubt the big 10 is ever an option. The sec could be an option but i'm not sure who would join with WVU. The most likely move would be if missouri ever joined the big 10, than the sec backfills with WVU. I think the acc makes sense for all parties. Get ESPN to broker a deal with byu joining the big 12 and wvu joining the ACC as team 16. Or the ACC could jump to 18 with uconn and cincy, break off into two divisions of 9. For football have 3 pods of 6 with ND playing 5 pod games.

(03-20-2014 02:53 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:25 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  Honestly I think WV fits. Better SEC for academics, fan base, athletic mentality, etc. I know many ACC fans in nc look down their noses at wv.

wvu fits the acc model better imo because their alumni is based largely in PA, NY, MD & VA

none of which are an SEC state

Wasn't aware of that. I guess that would certainly make traveling to away games easier. Although the WVU fan base travels pretty well anyway. They bring a good crowd to Greenville. I'd imagine if the SEC took one of the NC teams WVU would be in close enough proximity to Ky, TN, NC, Scar, UGA to keep their alumni happy. But they would be a lot closer to ACC teams on all sides of the state.

West Virginia is a bit deceiving, especially since Morgantown is basically a part of Pennsylvania. It is an absolute haul to get to Morgantown from any SEC school except UK in Lexington, which is still 5 hours. Everybody else would be flying into Pittsburgh and driving down. Kentucky and Tennessee to a lesser extent get quite a few West Virginians coming here, but it is a one way ticket. Without a school from Virginia also joining the SEC, West Virginia would be on an island in pretty much every respect except for cultural ties to eastern Kentucky and the portions of northeast Tennessee beyond Knoxville that JR mentioned. If they can move east, they should.

It was worth it compared to the AAC.

I think that if we ever had a situation where we had a chance to add a major VA or NC school but couldnt convince any other major VA or NC schools to come with them, then adding WVU as the counterbalance would make a lot of sense. Say if we could get VT to jump but not UVA, UNC or NC State to come with them, WVU would be a good #16

(03-20-2014 03:08 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 02:53 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:25 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  Honestly I think WV fits. Better SEC for academics, fan base, athletic mentality, etc. I know many ACC fans in nc look down their noses at wv.

wvu fits the acc model better imo because their alumni is based largely in PA, NY, MD & VA

none of which are an SEC state

Wasn't aware of that. I guess that would certainly make traveling to away games easier. Although the WVU fan base travels pretty well anyway. They bring a good crowd to Greenville. I'd imagine if the SEC took one of the NC teams WVU would be in close enough proximity to Ky, TN, NC, Scar, UGA to keep their alumni happy. But they would be a lot closer to ACC teams on all sides of the state.

West Virginia is a bit deceiving, especially since Morgantown is basically a part of Pennsylvania. It is an absolute haul to get to Morgantown from any SEC school except UK in Lexington, which is still 5 hours. Everybody else would be flying into Pittsburgh and driving down. Kentucky and Tennessee to a lesser extent get quite a few West Virginians coming here, but it is a one way ticket. Without a school from Virginia also joining the SEC, West Virginia would be on an island in pretty much every respect except for cultural ties to eastern Kentucky and the portions of northeast Tennessee beyond Knoxville that JR mentioned. If they can move east, they should.

When you get right down to it, there isn't much difference in having to fly to Alabama or Texas or Kansas if you're WVU. At this point, the only way they could improve their conference situation would be to find a way into the ACC. And that would still be true if the Big 12 added Cincinnati in the future.

(03-20-2014 03:24 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  I think that if we ever had a situation where we had a chance to add a major VA or NC school but couldnt convince any other major VA or NC schools to come with them, then adding WVU as the counterbalance would make a lot of sense. Say if we could get VT to jump but not UVA, UNC or NC State to come with them, WVU would be a good #16

I think that works better with N.C. State than Va Tech because of the markets Virginia Tech delivers. With N.C. State the argument could be made that they compliment the markets that the Wolfpack would bring. But with the Hokies much of the market is needlessly duplicated.

Partly, but I would think the big prize with WVU would be to push SECN into the Pittsburgh and DC markets (VT would help with DC too)

(03-20-2014 03:30 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 03:08 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 02:53 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:25 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  Honestly I think WV fits. Better SEC for academics, fan base, athletic mentality, etc. I know many ACC fans in nc look down their noses at wv.

wvu fits the acc model better imo because their alumni is based largely in PA, NY, MD & VA

none of which are an SEC state

Wasn't aware of that. I guess that would certainly make traveling to away games easier. Although the WVU fan base travels pretty well anyway. They bring a good crowd to Greenville. I'd imagine if the SEC took one of the NC teams WVU would be in close enough proximity to Ky, TN, NC, Scar, UGA to keep their alumni happy. But they would be a lot closer to ACC teams on all sides of the state.

West Virginia is a bit deceiving, especially since Morgantown is basically a part of Pennsylvania. It is an absolute haul to get to Morgantown from any SEC school except UK in Lexington, which is still 5 hours. Everybody else would be flying into Pittsburgh and driving down. Kentucky and Tennessee to a lesser extent get quite a few West Virginians coming here, but it is a one way ticket. Without a school from Virginia also joining the SEC, West Virginia would be on an island in pretty much every respect except for cultural ties to eastern Kentucky and the portions of northeast Tennessee beyond Knoxville that JR mentioned. If they can move east, they should.

When you get right down to it, there isn't much difference in having to fly to Alabama or Texas or Kansas if you're WVU. At this point, the only way they could improve their conference situation would be to find a way into the ACC. And that would still be true if the Big 12 added Cincinnati in the future.

That was one point I was making earlier. To the SEC they have two schools that are somewhat closer in Kentucky as BBB points out is 5 hours away and Tennessee which is even farther away. So as you say even if Cincinnati was added there would not be an appreciable difference in travel costs for either the Big 12 or ACC. Really the only place they fit well is with the Northern end of the ACC which is mostly Old Big East.

(03-20-2014 03:39 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 03:30 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 03:08 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 02:53 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  wvu fits the acc model better imo because their alumni is based largely in PA, NY, MD & VA

none of which are an SEC state

Wasn't aware of that. I guess that would certainly make traveling to away games easier. Although the WVU fan base travels pretty well anyway. They bring a good crowd to Greenville. I'd imagine if the SEC took one of the NC teams WVU would be in close enough proximity to Ky, TN, NC, Scar, UGA to keep their alumni happy. But they would be a lot closer to ACC teams on all sides of the state.

West Virginia is a bit deceiving, especially since Morgantown is basically a part of Pennsylvania. It is an absolute haul to get to Morgantown from any SEC school except UK in Lexington, which is still 5 hours. Everybody else would be flying into Pittsburgh and driving down. Kentucky and Tennessee to a lesser extent get quite a few West Virginians coming here, but it is a one way ticket. Without a school from Virginia also joining the SEC, West Virginia would be on an island in pretty much every respect except for cultural ties to eastern Kentucky and the portions of northeast Tennessee beyond Knoxville that JR mentioned. If they can move east, they should.

When you get right down to it, there isn't much difference in having to fly to Alabama or Texas or Kansas if you're WVU. At this point, the only way they could improve their conference situation would be to find a way into the ACC. And that would still be true if the Big 12 added Cincinnati in the future.

That was one point I was making earlier. To the SEC they have two schools that are somewhat closer in Kentucky as BBB points out is 5 hours away and Tennessee which is even farther away. So as you say even if Cincinnati was added there would not be an appreciable difference in travel costs for either the Big 12 or ACC. Really the only place they fit well is with the Northern end of the ACC which is mostly Old Big East.

And football travel costs aren't the issue, even though football drives realignment. Most P5 schools fly charters to all but the closest away games, and even when they don't fly they still stay at a hotel the night before. Hell, many of them even stay at a hotel before home games. The problem is all the other sports - especially the non-revenue sports.

I've seen these numbers before. WVU had a one-time expense of $20m for leaving the BE. Subtract that from the $90m expenses and WVU posts a $7m profit - with a partial share from the B12.

I'm shocked WVU could not negotiate a better deal from the B12 - i.e. a full share from day 1. The B12 stood to loose a significant amount of money if they didn't get back to 10 in time. There were several other schools that would have jumped to the B12 but I don't believe the media partners would have accepted a CUSA team and kept the payout the same.

The SEC and ACC had multiple opportunities to invite WVU but did not. WVU holding out for an invite from one of these two would have been foolish.

WVU demographics do not match the ACC.

(03-20-2014 12:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:53 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:33 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The worry about expenses appears to be exaggerated. WVU's athletics revenue is very high. They have large expenses owing to busting out of the Big East and having to wait a few years until they're phased in to a full revenue share in the Big 12, but those should be taken care of within a few years.

Wedge I think a lot of what you are saying is true, but it is not the whole picture. Travel will only go up in costs and for non revenue sports that's a killer. Since most games are at great distance that takes your traveling crowd down and the travelling crowd is much more likely to be comprised of donors and significant supporters who will grow weary. And it has gone grossly under evaluated the toll that having no traditional rivals will take upon the WVU fan base a whole. No Pitt, no Maryland, no Virginia Tech, no Louisville, no Syracuse, in other words no neighbors to chide after a victory, no close games to drive to, no passion. I think those factors haven't been weighed seriously enough.

Yes when they get a full share it will help, but it still won't be what most of their fans would like, even though their pride won't let them admit it publicly. The Old Big East was perfect for them. Now that a significant portion of those schools are in the ACC I do believe that is their best fit.

i remember during the b12/fsu debate i researched this

FSU would of seen AT LEAST a $3 million travel increase per year <== and that was a low balled and very conservative estimate.

remember that these programs spend millions each year on travel cost alone and we are talking about realignment moves that double sometimes even triple the travel distance. you have to factor in non revenue sports, band members, etc.

Colorado had to pay the full travel costs for students going to LA for the pac12 tourny because they knew that they wouldn't have a strong showing unless they did.

FSU's president said the Big 12 would have raised travel costs by $2 million.

(03-20-2014 03:53 PM)ken d Wrote:  Hell, many of them even stay at a hotel before home games. The problem is all the other sports - especially the non-revenue sports.

I know we stay at hotels in home games.

When it comes down to it Wva will be fine. Let's not forget that schools like ECU did/will fly out to:
WV/El Paso/Mississippi 7-27-12.5 hours drives
Texas X2 (was 4) 18 hours
FL X2 9-10 hours
Connecticut- 10 hours
Memphis - 12 hours
Tulsa - 18 hours
Philly - 7 hours
Cincy - 9.5 hours
Annapolis - 4.6 hours
New Orleans 13.5 hours.

Not sure what qualifies as a bus trip, but I think we'll fly to each one of these destinations. Like someone said earlier, there isn't much difference in flying to Alabama than there is to Texas.

That said I think WVU operates on like an 80M budget and we operate at 40M. If they can't do what we do with twice the money then there is a big problem. We do okay for what we've got, they should too.

(03-20-2014 04:19 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:53 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:33 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The worry about expenses appears to be exaggerated. WVU's athletics revenue is very high. They have large expenses owing to busting out of the Big East and having to wait a few years until they're phased in to a full revenue share in the Big 12, but those should be taken care of within a few years.

Wedge I think a lot of what you are saying is true, but it is not the whole picture. Travel will only go up in costs and for non revenue sports that's a killer. Since most games are at great distance that takes your traveling crowd down and the travelling crowd is much more likely to be comprised of donors and significant supporters who will grow weary. And it has gone grossly under evaluated the toll that having no traditional rivals will take upon the WVU fan base a whole. No Pitt, no Maryland, no Virginia Tech, no Louisville, no Syracuse, in other words no neighbors to chide after a victory, no close games to drive to, no passion. I think those factors haven't been weighed seriously enough.

Yes when they get a full share it will help, but it still won't be what most of their fans would like, even though their pride won't let them admit it publicly. The Old Big East was perfect for them. Now that a significant portion of those schools are in the ACC I do believe that is their best fit.

i remember during the b12/fsu debate i researched this

FSU would of seen AT LEAST a $3 million travel increase per year <== and that was a low balled and very conservative estimate.

remember that these programs spend millions each year on travel cost alone and we are talking about realignment moves that double sometimes even triple the travel distance. you have to factor in non revenue sports, band members, etc.

Colorado had to pay the full travel costs for students going to LA for the pac12 tourny because they knew that they wouldn't have a strong showing unless they did.

FSU's president said the Big 12 would have raised travel costs by $2 million.

and TBH i didn't think that was the correct number.

(03-20-2014 04:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  I've seen these numbers before. WVU had a one-time expense of $20m for leaving the BE. Subtract that from the $90m expenses and WVU posts a $7m profit - with a partial share from the B12.

I'm shocked WVU could not negotiate a better deal from the B12 - i.e. a full share from day 1. The B12 stood to loose a significant amount of money if they didn't get back to 10 in time. There were several other schools that would have jumped to the B12 but I don't believe the media partners would have accepted a CUSA team and kept the payout the same.

The SEC and ACC had multiple opportunities to invite WVU but did not. WVU holding out for an invite from one of these two would have been foolish.

WVU demographics do not match the ACC.

WV got the same TV deal as TCU, which paid them triple what they made before even with the reduced share. And the Big 12 effectively is paying all but the first $5 million of the exit fee.

(03-20-2014 04:23 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:19 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:53 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 12:33 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The worry about expenses appears to be exaggerated. WVU's athletics revenue is very high. They have large expenses owing to busting out of the Big East and having to wait a few years until they're phased in to a full revenue share in the Big 12, but those should be taken care of within a few years.

Wedge I think a lot of what you are saying is true, but it is not the whole picture. Travel will only go up in costs and for non revenue sports that's a killer. Since most games are at great distance that takes your traveling crowd down and the travelling crowd is much more likely to be comprised of donors and significant supporters who will grow weary. And it has gone grossly under evaluated the toll that having no traditional rivals will take upon the WVU fan base a whole. No Pitt, no Maryland, no Virginia Tech, no Louisville, no Syracuse, in other words no neighbors to chide after a victory, no close games to drive to, no passion. I think those factors haven't been weighed seriously enough.

Yes when they get a full share it will help, but it still won't be what most of their fans would like, even though their pride won't let them admit it publicly. The Old Big East was perfect for them. Now that a significant portion of those schools are in the ACC I do believe that is their best fit.

i remember during the b12/fsu debate i researched this

FSU would of seen AT LEAST a $3 million travel increase per year <== and that was a low balled and very conservative estimate.

remember that these programs spend millions each year on travel cost alone and we are talking about realignment moves that double sometimes even triple the travel distance. you have to factor in non revenue sports, band members, etc.

Colorado had to pay the full travel costs for students going to LA for the pac12 tourny because they knew that they wouldn't have a strong showing unless they did.

FSU's president said the Big 12 would have raised travel costs by $2 million.

and TBH i didn't think that was the correct number.

I thought it was high as it would push their travel costs up to those of Texas, who charters virtually all the sports, and has one of the highest budgets in the nation. Its a platinum budget. Now given that travel would be further, he may have felt it necessary to do a platinum budget. Hawaii, on the other hand, had a TOTAL travel budget of $3 million.

(03-20-2014 04:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  I've seen these numbers before. WVU had a one-time expense of $20m for leaving the BE. Subtract that from the $90m expenses and WVU posts a $7m profit - with a partial share from the B12.

I'm shocked WVU could not negotiate a better deal from the B12 - i.e. a full share from day 1. The B12 stood to loose a significant amount of money if they didn't get back to 10 in time. There were several other schools that would have jumped to the B12 but I don't believe the media partners would have accepted a CUSA team and kept the payout the same.

The SEC and ACC had multiple opportunities to invite WVU but did not. WVU holding out for an invite from one of these two would have been foolish.

WVU demographics do not match the ACC.

1. only 3 schools got full shares in year #1. colorado, pitt, & cuse. wvu was not getting a full share in year 1 because the precedent simply wasn't there.

2. wvu had to factor in that the b12 had plenty of other options. cincy, ville, byu, csu, new mexico, etc. they had to bend over for the b12 and say "thank you.....may I have so more?"

3. the demographics TOTALLY match the acc. I pulled these stats from the wvu site a year ago. for some reason the site is down and can't search the other sec states but it clearly shows what conference wvu SHOULD be in.

registered wvu alumni
texas 2757
oklahoma 260
kansas 246
iowa 226

pennsylvania 18,278
virginia 13,508
Florida 5,514
north carolina 5,214
New York 3,255
south carolina 2,719
georgia 2,310
mass 931

ACC border states
maryland 7,869
ohio 6,418

(03-20-2014 01:52 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I really don't think there would have been a chance that Louisville turns down the Big 12 in that situation. Just too much uncertainty at that point for Louisville to not take a lifeboat.

Of course not. It's like we forget there was a 12th hour battle between the two for admission.

(03-20-2014 04:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  I've seen these numbers before. WVU had a one-time expense of $20m for leaving the BE. Subtract that from the $90m expenses and WVU posts a $7m profit - with a partial share from the B12.

I am almost positive it was not a one time expense of $20 million, and that the cost was spread over a number of years. So it's not $20 million you take out of those numbers, but more like $5 million. I know the Big East, err AAC, has not received the entire $20 million yet. So it is not as simple as adding that number back in for one year and calling it a day.

Here's my homer pitch.

WVU & ECU to the SEC!

Though a spot in the SEC is a bit of a long shot for us, ECU's stock is certainly up at the moment as a regional up-and-comer and could gain more of a national reputation by maintaining a competitive television market presence and home attendance numbers. Those two factors bring in money, and after all, isn't that the only real factor that ultimately makes the decisions in college football?

We certainly match the the SEC culture (other than being a state flagship): small southern town, big state university (just under 30k), football is religion, big fan base (could pack 70,000 immediately if in the SEC), we may already be the best football program in the state despite our non-AQ status. We may never have a chance because of the directional school stigma but we are pretty much ranked right there with "West" Virginia by the US News & World Report.

I know, I know, take it to the ECU & the SEC thread.

(03-20-2014 04:34 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  I've seen these numbers before. WVU had a one-time expense of $20m for leaving the BE. Subtract that from the $90m expenses and WVU posts a $7m profit - with a partial share from the B12.

I'm shocked WVU could not negotiate a better deal from the B12 - i.e. a full share from day 1. The B12 stood to loose a significant amount of money if they didn't get back to 10 in time. There were several other schools that would have jumped to the B12 but I don't believe the media partners would have accepted a CUSA team and kept the payout the same.

The SEC and ACC had multiple opportunities to invite WVU but did not. WVU holding out for an invite from one of these two would have been foolish.

WVU demographics do not match the ACC.

1. only 3 schools got full shares in year #1. colorado, pitt, & cuse. wvu was not getting a full share in year 1 because the precedent simply wasn't there.

2. wvu had to factor in that the b12 had plenty of other options. cincy, ville, byu, csu, new mexico, etc. they had to bend over for the b12 and say "thank you.....may I have so more?"

3. the demographics TOTALLY match the acc. I pulled these stats from the wvu site a year ago. for some reason the site is down and can't search the other sec states but it clearly shows what conference wvu SHOULD be in.

registered wvu alumni
texas 2757
oklahoma 260
kansas 246
iowa 226

pennsylvania 18,278
virginia 13,508
Florida 5,514
north carolina 5,214
New York 3,255
south carolina 2,719
georgia 2,310
mass 931

ACC border states
maryland 7,869
ohio 6,418

Out of curiosity, do you have the # that live in WV?

(03-20-2014 04:44 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:34 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  I've seen these numbers before. WVU had a one-time expense of $20m for leaving the BE. Subtract that from the $90m expenses and WVU posts a $7m profit - with a partial share from the B12.

I'm shocked WVU could not negotiate a better deal from the B12 - i.e. a full share from day 1. The B12 stood to loose a significant amount of money if they didn't get back to 10 in time. There were several other schools that would have jumped to the B12 but I don't believe the media partners would have accepted a CUSA team and kept the payout the same.

The SEC and ACC had multiple opportunities to invite WVU but did not. WVU holding out for an invite from one of these two would have been foolish.

WVU demographics do not match the ACC.

1. only 3 schools got full shares in year #1. colorado, pitt, & cuse. wvu was not getting a full share in year 1 because the precedent simply wasn't there.

2. wvu had to factor in that the b12 had plenty of other options. cincy, ville, byu, csu, new mexico, etc. they had to bend over for the b12 and say "thank you.....may I have so more?"

3. the demographics TOTALLY match the acc. I pulled these stats from the wvu site a year ago. for some reason the site is down and can't search the other sec states but it clearly shows what conference wvu SHOULD be in.

registered wvu alumni
texas 2757
oklahoma 260
kansas 246
iowa 226

pennsylvania 18,278
virginia 13,508
Florida 5,514
north carolina 5,214
New York 3,255
south carolina 2,719
georgia 2,310
mass 931

ACC border states
maryland 7,869
ohio 6,418

Out of curiosity, do you have the # that live in WV?

it was in the 60k range.