...that doesn't give a fugg about "cultural fit"? I was reading about how conferences have lost their identity due to expansion, specifically the ACC becoming a Frankenstein conference.

When Louisville plays UNC next year I see that as two all time great programs playing each other. I really don't think any fan is watching that game thinking "Well, this is fine and dandy but I'd rather be playing ECU (or Cincy in Louisville's case) because they're more mid-atlantic"

Do people really care about these things and why?

(03-15-2014 08:12 AM)krux Wrote:  ...that doesn't give a fugg about "cultural fit"? I was reading about how conferences have lost their identity due to expansion, specifically the ACC becoming a Frankenstein conference.

When Louisville plays UNC next year I see that as two all time great programs playing each other. I really don't think any fan is watching that game thinking "Well, this is fine and dandy but I'd rather be playing ECU (or Cincy in Louisville's case) because they're more mid-atlantic"

Do people really care about these things and why?

I sure don't, but my perspective is far different than most. I don't care about conferences or "cultural fits".

I favor intersectional rivalries, anyway.

As a fan of a football independent and former basketball independent, my favorite matchups historically were football games against Southern Cal and basketball games against UCLA and Kentucky.

If ND has to be affiliated with any conference, I prefer one that stretches from Boston to Miami and has a mix of Northern/Southern, private/public schools over a regional, homogeneous one.

The latter just seems geographically limited and a bit boring to me. Just my take.

(03-15-2014 08:32 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-15-2014 08:12 AM)krux Wrote:  ...that doesn't give a fugg about "cultural fit"? I was reading about how conferences have lost their identity due to expansion, specifically the ACC becoming a Frankenstein conference.

When Louisville plays UNC next year I see that as two all time great programs playing each other. I really don't think any fan is watching that game thinking "Well, this is fine and dandy but I'd rather be playing ECU (or Cincy in Louisville's case) because they're more mid-atlantic"

Do people really care about these things and why?

I sure don't, but my perspective is far different than most. I don't care about conferences or "cultural fits".

I favor intersectional rivalries, anyway.

As a fan of a football independent and former basketball independent, my favorite matchups historically were football games against Southern Cal and basketball games against UCLA.

For you Terry in the case of Basketball the ACC is a Home Run...you have locked in opponents from the NE all the way to Florida with Traditional Powers like Duke, UNC, NC State, Syracuse and Louisville...

(03-15-2014 08:12 AM)krux Wrote:  ...that doesn't give a fugg about "cultural fit"? I was reading about how conferences have lost their identity due to expansion, specifically the ACC becoming a Frankenstein conference.

When Louisville plays UNC next year I see that as two all time great programs playing each other. I really don't think any fan is watching that game thinking "Well, this is fine and dandy but I'd rather be playing ECU (or Cincy in Louisville's case) because they're more mid-atlantic"

Do people really care about these things and why?

I am so looking forward to seeing UofL in Cameron and the Dean Dome...

(03-15-2014 08:32 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-15-2014 08:12 AM)krux Wrote:  ...that doesn't give a fugg about "cultural fit"? I was reading about how conferences have lost their identity due to expansion, specifically the ACC becoming a Frankenstein conference.

When Louisville plays UNC next year I see that as two all time great programs playing each other. I really don't think any fan is watching that game thinking "Well, this is fine and dandy but I'd rather be playing ECU (or Cincy in Louisville's case) because they're more mid-atlantic"

Do people really care about these things and why?

I sure don't, but my perspective is far different than most. I don't care about conferences or "cultural fits".

I favor intersectional rivalries, anyway.

As a fan of a football independent and former basketball independent, my favorite matchups historically were football games against Southern Cal and basketball games against UCLA and Kentucky.

If ND has to be affiliated with any conference, I prefer one that stretches from Boston to Miami and has a mix of Northern/Southern, private/public schools over a regional, homogeneous one.

The latter just seems geographically limited and a bit boring to me. Just my take.

Yet Notre Dame has arguably gone with the cultural fit in its decision making. First with the Big East that offered a significant number of similar institutions then with the ACC that keeps Notre Dame prominent in its historic second home of the Northeast.

(03-15-2014 09:04 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(03-15-2014 08:32 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-15-2014 08:12 AM)krux Wrote:  ...that doesn't give a fugg about "cultural fit"? I was reading about how conferences have lost their identity due to expansion, specifically the ACC becoming a Frankenstein conference.

When Louisville plays UNC next year I see that as two all time great programs playing each other. I really don't think any fan is watching that game thinking "Well, this is fine and dandy but I'd rather be playing ECU (or Cincy in Louisville's case) because they're more mid-atlantic"

Do people really care about these things and why?

I sure don't, but my perspective is far different than most. I don't care about conferences or "cultural fits".

I favor intersectional rivalries, anyway.

As a fan of a football independent and former basketball independent, my favorite matchups historically were football games against Southern Cal and basketball games against UCLA and Kentucky.

If ND has to be affiliated with any conference, I prefer one that stretches from Boston to Miami and has a mix of Northern/Southern, private/public schools over a regional, homogeneous one.

The latter just seems geographically limited and a bit boring to me. Just my take.

Yet Notre Dame has arguably gone with the cultural fit in its decision making. First with the Big East that offered a significant number of similar institutions then with the ACC that keeps Notre Dame prominent in its historic second home of the Northeast.

Agreed to an extent. But, it is not a conference limited to one unique, certain geographic region (Midwest, Great Plains, Southeast) with all large, land grant, public institutions.

It is a 1,500 mile long conference with schools in the Northeast and Southeast with a presence in the Midwest (ND, Louisville) and has private schools like Duke, Georgia Tech and Wake Forest along with public ones like Florida State and North Carolina.

It has Northern schools like Pitt, Syracuse and Boston College along with Southern schools like Clemson and NC State. It stretches from Boston to Miami and now over to the Louisville and South Bend/Chicago areas.

It has basketball powers like Syracuse and North Carolina and football schools like Clemson and Florida State.

If it could add schools like Texas, BYU and Stanford, that would be all the better from my point of view.

But, don't get me wrong. I grew up in the Sixties and Seventies when ND was an independent in football and basketball, playing teams all over the country. It didn't matter what the "culture fit" was. I prefer it that way and wish it still existed.

Heck, if ND football had to join a conference my real preference would be a recreation of the old Fifties concept of an "Airplane Conference" that stretches from coast to coast.

But, I really don't like the idea of conferences at all and so the idea of a regional, "cultural fit" is a sort of alien concept to me. I prefer intersectional rivalries where Alabama would play Southern Cal one week and Ohio State the next. Texas would play Notre Dame one week and then Florida State the next, and so on.......

We all come at these issues with our own background, experiences and perspective. Mine never involved regional, like minded opponents only.

But, I certainly understand that others have a different perspective and viewpoint.

I think it's important to have common goals, history and missions especially for public schools.
The more that is true, the more stable a conference is.

(03-15-2014 09:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Agreed to an extent. But, it is not a conference limited to one unique, certain geographic region (Midwest, Great Plains, Southeast) with all large, land grant, public institutions.

Looking at it from a different angle, Notre Dame rejected the Big 12 alliance because, with all large public southwestern/midwestern landgrants it would have been a BAD cultural and geographic fit.

Some Big East fans look at VCU basketball fans filling their arena and basically taking over the A-10 tournament, and see a cultural fit. Some look at a solid-but-not-impressive large southern public university and see a school that doesn't belong in the new Big East.

I do not, however; most original Kentucky families came from Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina and Tennessee. So as you can see Kentucky has an ACC culture, which many do not think so.

(03-15-2014 08:12 AM)krux Wrote:  ...that doesn't give a fugg about "cultural fit"? I was reading about how conferences have lost their identity due to expansion, specifically the ACC becoming a Frankenstein conference.
...
Do people really care about these things and why?

The main issue is when a conference can't agree on a strategy because there are different blocks of schools with different agendas. Witness the refusal of the Big East to take a TV offer under which the C7 schools would have likely stayed, and the "Go West" strategy would have certainly gone through.

Since the chief targets in the ACC for the SEC and Big Ten are in the original core, and their cultural fit within that core is better than in either of those suiter conference ... and since disagreement over priorities didn't prevent the ACC from doing what it had to do to hold together ... invite UL and agree to an extended GOR ... obviously any issues involving cultural fit aren't to the point of making the ACC at risk of falling apart.

And if all it means is a little backroom friction while the conference continues to function, its not really a major issue from a fan's point of view. WE don't have to sit through those strategy meetings, we get to just watch the sports.

(03-15-2014 08:12 AM)krux Wrote:  ...that doesn't give a fugg about "cultural fit"? I was reading about how conferences have lost their identity due to expansion, specifically the ACC becoming a Frankenstein conference.

When Louisville plays UNC next year I see that as two all time great programs playing each other. I really don't think any fan is watching that game thinking "Well, this is fine and dandy but I'd rather be playing ECU (or Cincy in Louisville's case) because they're more mid-atlantic"

Do people really care about these things and why?

I suspect a lot of people who talk about "cultural fit" wouldn't recognize one if they saw it. Or, more to the point, they would see one where it doesn't exist. It's a pretty nebulous concept.

Are we talking about a fit among the athletic cultures of different schools or some other aspect of those schools' cultures? My first "up close and personal" observation of the ACC is that it never fit culturally, by any standard I could think of. Other than being geographically close, what do Wake Forest and NC State have in common? What have they ever had in common? Other than size, what do Clemson and Virginia really have in common?

Yet fans in this region talk about the "culture of the ACC" as if it really exists, or has ever existed. I would argue that adding the schools that it has over the years hasn't changed the culture at all - everybody who joined is more like some member who was already here than are some other members who were already here. So we're still a polyglot - just a bigger polyglot.

Personally, when I go to a ballgame, I don't think much about what the schools admission standards are, or how much primary research they do, or what their student/faculty ratio is. I just think about which team is bigger, faster or more talented. That's enough for me, whether it's a conference game or an intersectional game.

I care. As long as cultural fit is not too narrowly defined. There is a reason Harvard is not in the same conference as Alabama. There is a reason Vandy seems so vastly different than the rest of the SEC. Same with Northwestern, Stanford, etc.

I think younger fans only care if the competition is good.
Pitt fans most likely look forward to Duke basketball and Clemson football matchups . I doubt BC being closer or a former conference mate matters.

(03-15-2014 09:04 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Yet Notre Dame has arguably gone with the cultural fit in its decision making. First with the Big East that offered a significant number of similar institutions then with the ACC that keeps Notre Dame prominent in its historic second home of the Northeast.

But the desire for Eastern exposure is easily explained in marketing terms. If two conferences offered ND a deal that allowed them to retain their prized independence, the one that offered more and better urban markets gets the nod without having to turn to cultural fit as an explanation.

if you are playing elite programs i dont think geography or cultural fit matter. However i do think it is somewhat important otherwise. I think it adds something to a rivalry or watching a game if you have some kind of tie to your opponent. That could be a state rivalry like michigan/ohio st or a more personal one where an individual has friends/relatives that atteneded another school which imo is common in many programs of the acc and BE. bragging rights, busting chops etc make it more fun. at least for me

(03-15-2014 11:45 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-15-2014 08:12 AM)krux Wrote:  ...that doesn't give a fugg about "cultural fit"? I was reading about how conferences have lost their identity due to expansion, specifically the ACC becoming a Frankenstein conference.

When Louisville plays UNC next year I see that as two all time great programs playing each other. I really don't think any fan is watching that game thinking "Well, this is fine and dandy but I'd rather be playing ECU (or Cincy in Louisville's case) because they're more mid-atlantic"

Do people really care about these things and why?

I suspect a lot of people who talk about "cultural fit" wouldn't recognize one if they saw it. Or, more to the point, they would see one where it doesn't exist. It's a pretty nebulous concept.

Are we talking about a fit among the athletic cultures of different schools or some other aspect of those schools' cultures? My first "up close and personal" observation of the ACC is that it never fit culturally, by any standard I could think of. Other than being geographically close, what do Wake Forest and NC State have in common? What have they ever had in common? Other than size, what do Clemson and Virginia really have in common?

Yet fans in this region talk about the "culture of the ACC" as if it really exists, or has ever existed. I would argue that adding the schools that it has over the years hasn't changed the culture at all - everybody who joined is more like some member who was already here than are some other members who were already here. So we're still a polyglot - just a bigger polyglot.

Personally, when I go to a ballgame, I don't think much about what the schools admission standards are, or how much primary research they do, or what their student/faculty ratio is. I just think about which team is bigger, faster or more talented. That's enough for me, whether it's a conference game or an intersectional game.

I like polyglot, whether we are talking about a conference or a country.

I grew up in Southwestern Pennsylvania, where small towns have several Catholic churches, one for the Irish, one for the Germans, one for the Italians, one for the Slovaks, etc...

There was an Italian Club, a Polish Club, etc...as social clubs for different nationalities/ethnic groups. I grew up with and am familiar with that.

Like I said, different perspectives.

(03-15-2014 01:29 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(03-15-2014 11:45 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-15-2014 08:12 AM)krux Wrote:  ...that doesn't give a fugg about "cultural fit"? I was reading about how conferences have lost their identity due to expansion, specifically the ACC becoming a Frankenstein conference.

When Louisville plays UNC next year I see that as two all time great programs playing each other. I really don't think any fan is watching that game thinking "Well, this is fine and dandy but I'd rather be playing ECU (or Cincy in Louisville's case) because they're more mid-atlantic"

Do people really care about these things and why?

I suspect a lot of people who talk about "cultural fit" wouldn't recognize one if they saw it. Or, more to the point, they would see one where it doesn't exist. It's a pretty nebulous concept.

Are we talking about a fit among the athletic cultures of different schools or some other aspect of those schools' cultures? My first "up close and personal" observation of the ACC is that it never fit culturally, by any standard I could think of. Other than being geographically close, what do Wake Forest and NC State have in common? What have they ever had in common? Other than size, what do Clemson and Virginia really have in common?

Yet fans in this region talk about the "culture of the ACC" as if it really exists, or has ever existed. I would argue that adding the schools that it has over the years hasn't changed the culture at all - everybody who joined is more like some member who was already here than are some other members who were already here. So we're still a polyglot - just a bigger polyglot.

Personally, when I go to a ballgame, I don't think much about what the schools admission standards are, or how much primary research they do, or what their student/faculty ratio is. I just think about which team is bigger, faster or more talented. That's enough for me, whether it's a conference game or an intersectional game.

I like polyglot, whether we are talking about a conference or a country.

I grew up in Southwestern Pennsylvania, where small towns have several Catholic churches, one for the Irish, one for the Germans, one for the Italians, one for the Slovaks, etc...

There was an Italian Club, a Polish Club, etc...as social clubs for different nationalities/ethnic groups. I grew up with and am familiar with that.

Like I said, different perspectives.

Are the social clubs still relevant today Terry? I'm sure the churches are still going but mass is no longer in Latin.

Then you can go to a school like Penn State where all of those ethnic groups are mixed in together. When I was at Ohio it was kind of like that where kids were Italian, Lebanese, Slovak and very proud of their identities. I never had anything like that to work with growing up.

I have an ancestor from Belgium who came to the State's in the 1850's but he came by himself and wife with family money for the opportunity to make money in NYC. His wife was from a Scottish family that immigrated to Belgium in the 1700's. I think it was always accepted to intermarry between those countries since the days of William the Conqueror. At least between Britian, Netherlands, Belgium, NW Germany, NE France. It wasn't uncommon for families to move back and forth for business opportunities or conquest.

Those clubs are still relevant because the bars are closed on Sunday, or they recently used to be.

The social clubs were always open on Sundays and always full.