(03-06-2014 12:37 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 06:56 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 01:58 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 01:25 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  Zerohedge Link

EU and Estonian Officials had a private conservation recorded and leaked indicating that the pro-western protest movement was behind snipers shooting and killing pro-west protesters. This event ultimately helped lead to the overthrow of the elected president. Recording suggests it was all a false flag.

The key quote:
" So there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition."

you have been trying to glorify the former soviets and justify their adventurism, while denigrating the ukrainians, since this thing began.

it's just unfathomable.

No, I'm not glorifying soviets or Putin. I've said from the beginning that I thought the protesters were justified in overthrowing their corrupt government. I've also said I've thought that the ethnic russian regions, e.g. Crimea, were justified in turning to Russia for help. The protesters did overthrow the democratically elected government.

I've pointed out our hypocrisy in criticizing Russia for intervening where they very clearly have a direct national interests, while we intervene all over the world and kill tens of thousands for far less direct national interests. It should be noted that there are no reports that Russia has killed or harmed anyone since they arrived in Crimea, an autonomous region where they were invited by Crimea's lawfully elected officials.

I support the right of regions to decide their own fate. The western part of Ukraine can go align with NATO/EU and the eastern part can align with Russia. It should be split along ethnic/language lines. There is no point to civil war.

Some on here wish to act like their is no justification for Russian actions and that the pro-west part of Ukraine which overthrew the elected government is somehow blameless. There are two sides to every story. I see justifications and blame for both. That's it.

Putin's Russia is simply not credible. They've repeatedly violated every single agreement they've ever signed. They are claiming that the occupying force in Crimea isn't regular Russian military. Please.
PUTIN'S A LIAR AGREED.

The Ukrainian protesters in Maidan were fired on by Yanukovich's thugs. Not by NATO or George Soros or President Obama.
THERE IS RECORDED EVIDENCE FROM TELEPHONE CALLS THAT IT WAS NOT YANUKOVICH BEHIND THE SHOOTINGS, BUT PRO-MAIDAN BACKERS WHO BRIBED THE POLICE TO SHOOT PROTESTERS.

The Russians are abusing the non-Russian minority in the Crimea. Russians were never threatened by the Ukrainian Provisional Government.
NO EVIDENCE OF THIS, TO THE CONTRARY, THEY'VE BEEN MAKING AN EFFORT TO REACH OUT TO TARTARS AND OTHER MINORITIES.

The Ukrainian Government is legitimate. Its authority comes from an elected Parliament. Yanukovich abandoned his post. He can fly back to Ukraine and face trial for his obvious and obscene corruption and orders to fire on largely peaceful protesters.
THE PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT LEGITIMATE, IT IS NOT THE ELECTED PARLIAMENT, IT IS A COBBLING TOGETHER OF VARIOUS FACTIONS WHICH OVERTHREW THE LAWFUL GOVERNMENT. SOME LAWMAKERS ARE STILL THERE SURE, BUT SOME AREN'T. THE PRO-MAIDAN GROUP BROKE THEIR AGREEMENT TO HOLD NEW ELECTIONS.

Russia had no justification to enter Crimea. None.
CRIMEA'S ELECTED OFFICIALS REQUESTED THAT RUSSIA COME IN AND AID THEM. THEY'VE ALLOWED RUSSIAN TROOPS IN TO PROTECT THEM. RUSSIA HAS A DIRECT NATIONAL INTEREST IN THE REGION AND IN PROTECTING ETHNIC RUSSIANS.

And I'm a liberal.
I'M NOT.

My comments are in CAPS.

Reuters Link

Crimea is moving forward with a referendum to join Russia. It's elected officials and people overwhelming want to end their relationship with Kiev and draw closer to Russia. See the link.

(03-06-2014 12:37 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 06:56 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 01:58 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 01:25 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  Zerohedge Link

EU and Estonian Officials had a private conservation recorded and leaked indicating that the pro-western protest movement was behind snipers shooting and killing pro-west protesters. This event ultimately helped lead to the overthrow of the elected president. Recording suggests it was all a false flag.

The key quote:
" So there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition."

you have been trying to glorify the former soviets and justify their adventurism, while denigrating the ukrainians, since this thing began.

it's just unfathomable.

No, I'm not glorifying soviets or Putin. I've said from the beginning that I thought the protesters were justified in overthrowing their corrupt government. I've also said I've thought that the ethnic russian regions, e.g. Crimea, were justified in turning to Russia for help. The protesters did overthrow the democratically elected government.

I've pointed out our hypocrisy in criticizing Russia for intervening where they very clearly have a direct national interests, while we intervene all over the world and kill tens of thousands for far less direct national interests. It should be noted that there are no reports that Russia has killed or harmed anyone since they arrived in Crimea, an autonomous region where they were invited by Crimea's lawfully elected officials.

I support the right of regions to decide their own fate. The western part of Ukraine can go align with NATO/EU and the eastern part can align with Russia. It should be split along ethnic/language lines. There is no point to civil war.

Some on here wish to act like their is no justification for Russian actions and that the pro-west part of Ukraine which overthrew the elected government is somehow blameless. There are two sides to every story. I see justifications and blame for both. That's it.

Putin's Russia is simply not credible. They've repeatedly violated every single agreement they've ever signed. They are claiming that the occupying force in Crimea isn't regular Russian military. Please.

The Ukrainian protesters in Maidan were fired on by Yanukovich's thugs. Not by NATO or George Soros or President Obama.

The Russians are abusing the non-Russian minority in the Crimea. Russians were never threatened by the Ukrainian Provisional Government.

The Ukrainian Government is legitimate. Its authority comes from an elected Parliament. Yanukovich abandoned his post. He can fly back to Ukraine and face trial for his obvious and obscene corruption and orders to fire on largely peaceful protesters.

Russia had no justification to enter Crimea. None.

And I'm a liberal.

What was the EU's justification for training the Ukrainian rebels and plotting to overthrow a democratically elected government?

(03-06-2014 07:40 AM)Jugnaut Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 12:37 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 06:56 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 01:58 PM)EagleX Wrote:  

(03-05-2014 01:25 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  Zerohedge Link

EU and Estonian Officials had a private conservation recorded and leaked indicating that the pro-western protest movement was behind snipers shooting and killing pro-west protesters. This event ultimately helped lead to the overthrow of the elected president. Recording suggests it was all a false flag.

The key quote:
" So there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition."

you have been trying to glorify the former soviets and justify their adventurism, while denigrating the ukrainians, since this thing began.

it's just unfathomable.

No, I'm not glorifying soviets or Putin. I've said from the beginning that I thought the protesters were justified in overthrowing their corrupt government. I've also said I've thought that the ethnic russian regions, e.g. Crimea, were justified in turning to Russia for help. The protesters did overthrow the democratically elected government.

I've pointed out our hypocrisy in criticizing Russia for intervening where they very clearly have a direct national interests, while we intervene all over the world and kill tens of thousands for far less direct national interests. It should be noted that there are no reports that Russia has killed or harmed anyone since they arrived in Crimea, an autonomous region where they were invited by Crimea's lawfully elected officials.

I support the right of regions to decide their own fate. The western part of Ukraine can go align with NATO/EU and the eastern part can align with Russia. It should be split along ethnic/language lines. There is no point to civil war.

Some on here wish to act like their is no justification for Russian actions and that the pro-west part of Ukraine which overthrew the elected government is somehow blameless. There are two sides to every story. I see justifications and blame for both. That's it.

Putin's Russia is simply not credible. They've repeatedly violated every single agreement they've ever signed. They are claiming that the occupying force in Crimea isn't regular Russian military. Please.
PUTIN'S A LIAR AGREED.

The Ukrainian protesters in Maidan were fired on by Yanukovich's thugs. Not by NATO or George Soros or President Obama.
THERE IS RECORDED EVIDENCE FROM TELEPHONE CALLS THAT IT WAS NOT YANUKOVICH BEHIND THE SHOOTINGS, BUT PRO-MAIDAN BACKERS WHO BRIBED THE POLICE TO SHOOT PROTESTERS.

The Russians are abusing the non-Russian minority in the Crimea. Russians were never threatened by the Ukrainian Provisional Government.
NO EVIDENCE OF THIS, TO THE CONTRARY, THEY'VE BEEN MAKING AN EFFORT TO REACH OUT TO TARTARS AND OTHER MINORITIES.

The Ukrainian Government is legitimate. Its authority comes from an elected Parliament. Yanukovich abandoned his post. He can fly back to Ukraine and face trial for his obvious and obscene corruption and orders to fire on largely peaceful protesters.
THE PROVISIONAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT LEGITIMATE, IT IS NOT THE ELECTED PARLIAMENT, IT IS A COBBLING TOGETHER OF VARIOUS FACTIONS WHICH OVERTHREW THE LAWFUL GOVERNMENT. SOME LAWMAKERS ARE STILL THERE SURE, BUT SOME AREN'T. THE PRO-MAIDAN GROUP BROKE THEIR AGREEMENT TO HOLD NEW ELECTIONS.

Russia had no justification to enter Crimea. None.
CRIMEA'S ELECTED OFFICIALS REQUESTED THAT RUSSIA COME IN AND AID THEM. THEY'VE ALLOWED RUSSIAN TROOPS IN TO PROTECT THEM. RUSSIA HAS A DIRECT NATIONAL INTEREST IN THE REGION AND IN PROTECTING ETHNIC RUSSIANS.

And I'm a liberal.
I'M NOT.

My comments are in CAPS.

Reuters Link

Crimea is moving forward with a referendum to join Russia. It's elected officials and people overwhelming want to end their relationship with Kiev and draw closer to Russia. See the link.

Pretty easy to do when you are facing down the barrel of a gun. There are also reports of Russians busing in people from Russia to portray that Crimea wants to break away.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Those would be some pretty interesting buses. Either they went through a bunch of Ukraine territory or they are amphibious.

Forbes article detailing "how the Western press is getting it terribly wrong in Ukraine::

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2...n-ukraine/

(03-06-2014 09:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Those would be some pretty interesting buses. Either they went through a bunch of Ukraine territory or they are amphibious.

Ferry to Kerch.

(03-06-2014 10:53 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(03-06-2014 09:58 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Those would be some pretty interesting buses. Either they went through a bunch of Ukraine territory or they are amphibious.

Ferry to Kerch.

Obviously. Just the way the original comment was written sounded like, "oh they just hopped a bus and rode over." Little more complicated than that.