(03-04-2014 01:46 AM)BigTigerMike Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:32 AM)Blackman Wrote:  

(03-03-2014 11:26 PM)jgardne Wrote:  y'all can all keep saying that King is a defensive liability and it doesn't make it true. I've seen plenty of bad defenders and Nick King does not move that needle at all when compared with the rest of this team. I'm not going to argue with people who are just so wrong about it but keep parroting it back and forth because it's the only way to try to justify Pastner's misuse of him.

keep beating the drum to see how many y'all can get to march to it

In the last month there have been interviews with Robert Kirby, and Jason Gardner, on the Wolo show, and Easterwood on the Parrish show all of which mention that Nick has a problem guarding quicker small forwards at this level. His lateral foot movement is just not there yet but he is working hard on it.

All three have said that he functions at the 4 better for now.

I fail to see the reasoning in all these coaches siding with Pastner if he is as wrong as you say.

Maybe Nick just has a thing or two to work on like most freshman do.


All three have coached him or against him and have the same point of view.

I heard the same thing. Its not putting Nick down but saying that he needs to get better in certain areas to be the player that everyone knows he can become. Its the same like saying that Austin needs to get stronger and add muscle to his frame to be the kind of player we hope he can truly be

Anyone who sits down and pays attention to the games sees the same thing. It's not tearing Nick down, it's just the facts at this point.

(03-04-2014 09:18 AM)jgardne Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:32 AM)Blackman Wrote:  

(03-03-2014 11:26 PM)jgardne Wrote:  y'all can all keep saying that King is a defensive liability and it doesn't make it true. I've seen plenty of bad defenders and Nick King does not move that needle at all when compared with the rest of this team. I'm not going to argue with people who are just so wrong about it but keep parroting it back and forth because it's the only way to try to justify Pastner's misuse of him.

keep beating the drum to see how many y'all can get to march to it

In the last month there have been interviews with Robert Kirby, and Jason Gardner, on the Wolo show, and Easterwood on the Parrish show all of which mention that Nick has a problem guarding quicker small forwards at this level. His lateral foot movement is just not there yet but he is working hard on it.

All three have said that he functions at the 4 better for now.

I fail to see the reasoning in all these coaches siding with Pastner if he is as wrong as you say.

Maybe Nick just has a thing or two to work on like most freshman do.


All three have coached him or against him and have the same point of view.

our whole team struggles to guard quicker guards, except Geron. That's the issue. But they can't say that about everyone. of course the assistant coaches are saying it, they're parroting what Pastner wants them to say.

Tell me the small forwards who have torched or abused Nick King while he was in. Not as in, they scored once. Tell me any player who has abused King's supposed poor defense.

And then I'll be happy to tell you all the players who have murdered our guards and their superior foot speed to the tune of career games this year.

In your expert opinion, what motivates a professional coach at the highest level of college basketball with strong incentives to play anyone that will produce victories to not play someone?

How much time have you spent in practice, film, and games using your comprehensive and authoritative knowledge evaluating King's strengths and weaknesses?

(03-04-2014 08:08 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 09:18 AM)jgardne Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:32 AM)Blackman Wrote:  

(03-03-2014 11:26 PM)jgardne Wrote:  y'all can all keep saying that King is a defensive liability and it doesn't make it true. I've seen plenty of bad defenders and Nick King does not move that needle at all when compared with the rest of this team. I'm not going to argue with people who are just so wrong about it but keep parroting it back and forth because it's the only way to try to justify Pastner's misuse of him.

keep beating the drum to see how many y'all can get to march to it

In the last month there have been interviews with Robert Kirby, and Jason Gardner, on the Wolo show, and Easterwood on the Parrish show all of which mention that Nick has a problem guarding quicker small forwards at this level. His lateral foot movement is just not there yet but he is working hard on it.

All three have said that he functions at the 4 better for now.

I fail to see the reasoning in all these coaches siding with Pastner if he is as wrong as you say.

Maybe Nick just has a thing or two to work on like most freshman do.


All three have coached him or against him and have the same point of view.

our whole team struggles to guard quicker guards, except Geron. That's the issue. But they can't say that about everyone. of course the assistant coaches are saying it, they're parroting what Pastner wants them to say.

Tell me the small forwards who have torched or abused Nick King while he was in. Not as in, they scored once. Tell me any player who has abused King's supposed poor defense.

And then I'll be happy to tell you all the players who have murdered our guards and their superior foot speed to the tune of career games this year.

In your expert opinion, what motivates a professional coach at the highest level of college basketball with strong incentives to play anyone that will produce victories to not play someone?

How much time have you spent in practice, film, and games using your comprehensive and authoritative knowledge evaluating King's strengths and weaknesses?

I'm not going to debate you or MemphisCanes about this. Pastner has his own set of biases as a coach. His preference is to play small, and it colors the way he has used King this year. Your problem, and the problem of many others on this board, during both the Cal era and the Pastner era, is to assume that because a coach makes a decision it must be a correct decision, or because a coach says something it must be true.

It isn't. Pastner makes mistakes, and he makes them in spades. He also makes some good decisions and comes up with excellent gameplans from time to time. The Arizona game in the NCAA tourney was a masterpiece


I've watched Nick King very closely on defense this year because MemphisCanes keep saying he can't play D, he can't play D. He can, he's fine, he's not as good as Geron but he's not a disaster. he's an average defender.

Anyway, let's just see what you and Canes have to say about his defense next year when he's playing 25-30 minutes/game. I guarantee you it's not going to be one of the top 20 issues any of us talk about.

How bad do you even think King is? Is he the worst defender on the team? Is he historically bad, like Kareem Cooper? Do we never stop an opponent when he's on the floor? Because he would have to be our worst defender by a long stretch to negate the impact he makes with his rebounding and scoring efficiency. He's just an average defender, no more, no less.

(03-04-2014 08:03 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 09:18 AM)jgardne Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:32 AM)Blackman Wrote:  

(03-03-2014 11:26 PM)jgardne Wrote:  y'all can all keep saying that King is a defensive liability and it doesn't make it true. I've seen plenty of bad defenders and Nick King does not move that needle at all when compared with the rest of this team. I'm not going to argue with people who are just so wrong about it but keep parroting it back and forth because it's the only way to try to justify Pastner's misuse of him.

keep beating the drum to see how many y'all can get to march to it

In the last month there have been interviews with Robert Kirby, and Jason Gardner, on the Wolo show, and Easterwood on the Parrish show all of which mention that Nick has a problem guarding quicker small forwards at this level. His lateral foot movement is just not there yet but he is working hard on it.

All three have said that he functions at the 4 better for now.

I fail to see the reasoning in all these coaches siding with Pastner if he is as wrong as you say.

Maybe Nick just has a thing or two to work on like most freshman do.


All three have coached him or against him and have the same point of view.

our whole team struggles to guard quicker guards, except Geron. That's the issue. But they can't say that about everyone. of course the assistant coaches are saying it, they're parroting what Pastner wants them to say.

Tell me the small forwards who have torched or abused Nick King while he was in. Not as in, they scored once. Tell me any player who has abused King's supposed poor defense.

And then I'll be happy to tell you all the players who have murdered our guards and their superior foot speed to the tune of career games this year.

Niels Giffey, Stiggers, off the top of my head, and that's in the past handful of games. But it's not just about opposing 3's, it's about being able to switch screens onto guards as well. We already don't switch 4 and 5 up top, I don't think we want to start not switching the 3 too.

In sum, it's completely evident if you sit down and actually watch the games. You literally have a laundry list of people who are telling you this, and you're arguing against overwhelming evidence at this point. This is a lost issue for you.

the laundry list is just you. You keep saying it over and over in the hope it becomes true. You're not going to open your eyes and actually see the truth about King until next year. So just table it til then.

(03-04-2014 09:17 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 08:08 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 09:18 AM)jgardne Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:32 AM)Blackman Wrote:  

(03-03-2014 11:26 PM)jgardne Wrote:  y'all can all keep saying that King is a defensive liability and it doesn't make it true. I've seen plenty of bad defenders and Nick King does not move that needle at all when compared with the rest of this team. I'm not going to argue with people who are just so wrong about it but keep parroting it back and forth because it's the only way to try to justify Pastner's misuse of him.

keep beating the drum to see how many y'all can get to march to it

In the last month there have been interviews with Robert Kirby, and Jason Gardner, on the Wolo show, and Easterwood on the Parrish show all of which mention that Nick has a problem guarding quicker small forwards at this level. His lateral foot movement is just not there yet but he is working hard on it.

All three have said that he functions at the 4 better for now.

I fail to see the reasoning in all these coaches siding with Pastner if he is as wrong as you say.

Maybe Nick just has a thing or two to work on like most freshman do.


All three have coached him or against him and have the same point of view.

our whole team struggles to guard quicker guards, except Geron. That's the issue. But they can't say that about everyone. of course the assistant coaches are saying it, they're parroting what Pastner wants them to say.

Tell me the small forwards who have torched or abused Nick King while he was in. Not as in, they scored once. Tell me any player who has abused King's supposed poor defense.

And then I'll be happy to tell you all the players who have murdered our guards and their superior foot speed to the tune of career games this year.

In your expert opinion, what motivates a professional coach at the highest level of college basketball with strong incentives to play anyone that will produce victories to not play someone?

How much time have you spent in practice, film, and games using your comprehensive and authoritative knowledge evaluating King's strengths and weaknesses?

I'm not going to debate you or MemphisCanes about this. Pastner has his own set of biases as a coach. His preference is to play small, and it colors the way he has used King this year. I've watched Nick King very closely on defense this year because MemphisCanes keep saying he can't play D, he can't play D. He can, he's fine, he's not as good as Geron but he's not a disaster. he's an average defender.

Anyway, let's just see what you and Canes have to say about his defense next year when he's playing 25-30 minutes/game. I guarantee you it's not going to be one of the top 20 issues we face next year.

You are entitled to your opinion and I hope King's defensive skills are somehow underestimated by the professionals with vested interest to win games.

Personally, I cannot possibly imagine that a college coach could offer me any meaningful advise on discharging my job duties and I would be little help to a college coach with his job performance.

(03-04-2014 09:34 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 09:17 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 08:08 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 09:18 AM)jgardne Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:32 AM)Blackman Wrote:  In the last month there have been interviews with Robert Kirby, and Jason Gardner, on the Wolo show, and Easterwood on the Parrish show all of which mention that Nick has a problem guarding quicker small forwards at this level. His lateral foot movement is just not there yet but he is working hard on it.

All three have said that he functions at the 4 better for now.

I fail to see the reasoning in all these coaches siding with Pastner if he is as wrong as you say.

Maybe Nick just has a thing or two to work on like most freshman do.


All three have coached him or against him and have the same point of view.

our whole team struggles to guard quicker guards, except Geron. That's the issue. But they can't say that about everyone. of course the assistant coaches are saying it, they're parroting what Pastner wants them to say.

Tell me the small forwards who have torched or abused Nick King while he was in. Not as in, they scored once. Tell me any player who has abused King's supposed poor defense.

And then I'll be happy to tell you all the players who have murdered our guards and their superior foot speed to the tune of career games this year.

In your expert opinion, what motivates a professional coach at the highest level of college basketball with strong incentives to play anyone that will produce victories to not play someone?

How much time have you spent in practice, film, and games using your comprehensive and authoritative knowledge evaluating King's strengths and weaknesses?

I'm not going to debate you or MemphisCanes about this. Pastner has his own set of biases as a coach. His preference is to play small, and it colors the way he has used King this year. I've watched Nick King very closely on defense this year because MemphisCanes keep saying he can't play D, he can't play D. He can, he's fine, he's not as good as Geron but he's not a disaster. he's an average defender.

Anyway, let's just see what you and Canes have to say about his defense next year when he's playing 25-30 minutes/game. I guarantee you it's not going to be one of the top 20 issues we face next year.

You are entitled to your opinion and I hope King's defensive skills are somehow underestimated by the professionals with vested interest to win games.

Personally, I cannot possibly imagine that a college coach could offer me any meaningful advise on discharging my job duties and I would be little help to a college coach with his job performance.

A college coach probably hasn't recreationally performed your job for 20+ years and hasn't recreationally watched people do your job at the amateur and professional level for 20+ years. The knowledge gap between you and Pastner about basketball is much closer than the gap between you and Pastner about whatever your job is because you probably have, what, 5000-10000 hours of basketball experience?

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/scho...nced::none

There just aren't many good advanced stats available for college basketball. This is the only site I can find. It has Nick King's defensive efficiency, through all games as well as in conference play, and he ranks 3rd both times. This sort of number is tough to interpret because he's mainly playing the 4 and it's not adjusted for the other team's lineup et. Al., but it indicates that's he's ok on defense and there is no opponent scoring spike that comes from him being in the game

Nick Kings issue is he has played four in high school. His position will be a three in college as soon as he learns to use both hands dribbling and gets use to playing the position. He's not very good dribbling with one hand which is probably why Pastner didn't play him at the two guard spot in the first half. Wilson is a better ball handler at this point-in-time.

(03-04-2014 09:52 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 09:34 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 09:17 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 08:08 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 09:18 AM)jgardne Wrote:  our whole team struggles to guard quicker guards, except Geron. That's the issue. But they can't say that about everyone. of course the assistant coaches are saying it, they're parroting what Pastner wants them to say.

Tell me the small forwards who have torched or abused Nick King while he was in. Not as in, they scored once. Tell me any player who has abused King's supposed poor defense.

And then I'll be happy to tell you all the players who have murdered our guards and their superior foot speed to the tune of career games this year.

In your expert opinion, what motivates a professional coach at the highest level of college basketball with strong incentives to play anyone that will produce victories to not play someone?

How much time have you spent in practice, film, and games using your comprehensive and authoritative knowledge evaluating King's strengths and weaknesses?

I'm not going to debate you or MemphisCanes about this. Pastner has his own set of biases as a coach. His preference is to play small, and it colors the way he has used King this year. I've watched Nick King very closely on defense this year because MemphisCanes keep saying he can't play D, he can't play D. He can, he's fine, he's not as good as Geron but he's not a disaster. he's an average defender.

Anyway, let's just see what you and Canes have to say about his defense next year when he's playing 25-30 minutes/game. I guarantee you it's not going to be one of the top 20 issues we face next year.

You are entitled to your opinion and I hope King's defensive skills are somehow underestimated by the professionals with vested interest to win games.

Personally, I cannot possibly imagine that a college coach could offer me any meaningful advise on discharging my job duties and I would be little help to a college coach with his job performance.

A college coach probably hasn't recreationally performed your job for 20+ years and hasn't recreationally watched people do your job at the amateur and professional level for 20+ years. The knowledge gap between you and Pastner about basketball is much closer than the gap between you and Pastner about whatever your job is because you probably have, what, 5000-10000 hours of basketball experience?

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/scho...nced::none

There just aren't many good advanced stats available for college basketball. This is the only site I can find. It has Nick King's defensive efficiency, through all games as well as in conference play, and he ranks 3rd both times. This sort of number is tough to interpret because he's mainly playing the 4 and it's not adjusted for the other team's lineup et. Al., but it indicates that's he's ok on defense and there is no opponent scoring spike that comes from him being in the game

You might want to share the results of your research with Pastner. He reads and returns emails from fans. And, personally, I do not have more than rudimental knowledge of college basketball, especially in comparison to a high major D-1 coach.

(03-04-2014 09:17 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 08:08 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 09:18 AM)jgardne Wrote:  

(03-04-2014 01:32 AM)Blackman Wrote:  

(03-03-2014 11:26 PM)jgardne Wrote:  y'all can all keep saying that King is a defensive liability and it doesn't make it true. I've seen plenty of bad defenders and Nick King does not move that needle at all when compared with the rest of this team. I'm not going to argue with people who are just so wrong about it but keep parroting it back and forth because it's the only way to try to justify Pastner's misuse of him.

keep beating the drum to see how many y'all can get to march to it

In the last month there have been interviews with Robert Kirby, and Jason Gardner, on the Wolo show, and Easterwood on the Parrish show all of which mention that Nick has a problem guarding quicker small forwards at this level. His lateral foot movement is just not there yet but he is working hard on it.

All three have said that he functions at the 4 better for now.

I fail to see the reasoning in all these coaches siding with Pastner if he is as wrong as you say.

Maybe Nick just has a thing or two to work on like most freshman do.


All three have coached him or against him and have the same point of view.

our whole team struggles to guard quicker guards, except Geron. That's the issue. But they can't say that about everyone. of course the assistant coaches are saying it, they're parroting what Pastner wants them to say.

Tell me the small forwards who have torched or abused Nick King while he was in. Not as in, they scored once. Tell me any player who has abused King's supposed poor defense.

And then I'll be happy to tell you all the players who have murdered our guards and their superior foot speed to the tune of career games this year.

In your expert opinion, what motivates a professional coach at the highest level of college basketball with strong incentives to play anyone that will produce victories to not play someone?

How much time have you spent in practice, film, and games using your comprehensive and authoritative knowledge evaluating King's strengths and weaknesses?

I'm not going to debate you or MemphisCanes about this. Pastner has his own set of biases as a coach. His preference is to play small, and it colors the way he has used King this year. Your problem, and the problem of many others on this board, during both the Cal era and the Pastner era, is to assume that because a coach makes a decision it must be a correct decision, or because a coach says something it must be true.

It isn't. Pastner makes mistakes, and he makes them in spades. He also makes some good decisions and comes up with excellent gameplans from time to time. The Arizona game in the NCAA tourney was a masterpiece


I've watched Nick King very closely on defense this year because MemphisCanes keep saying he can't play D, he can't play D. He can, he's fine, he's not as good as Geron but he's not a disaster. he's an average defender.

Anyway, let's just see what you and Canes have to say about his defense next year when he's playing 25-30 minutes/game. I guarantee you it's not going to be one of the top 20 issues any of us talk about.

How bad do you even think King is? Is he the worst defender on the team? Is he historically bad, like Kareem Cooper? Do we never stop an opponent when he's on the floor? Because he would have to be our worst defender by a long stretch to negate the impact he makes with his rebounding and scoring efficiency. He's just an average defender, no more, no less.

Jgardne, that is a really, really good post and spot on too

The whole thing in a nutshell is we don't have a great(good Defender) on the team period except GJ and he is good(if it weren't for the hand checking rules he could be better than good).. Dixon is pretty good to but the new rules have affected him also..To say that CC is a good defender-not even close, JJ is not a good defender.. So I don't think King is any worse than these 2 guys..King is a better defender than CC..He also does more in the game in his short spurts than anyone else does period, rebound, hustle, and rebounding and rebounding and he is real good,in fact, the best rebounder on the team..But I'm just a fan and it's just my opinion which doesn't mean squat..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Interesting OPINIONS folks.

Presented as facts- a good style for sure.

Mostly BS nonetheless.

Thank you Carnac.

(03-03-2014 12:05 PM)ballhog Wrote:  His biggest problem is his defense. He struggles guarding the 4 and 5 because of strength issues (which can be taken care of in the off-season). He is too slow footed to defend the guards of Louisville (which he can also work on in the off season).
He's one of the main reasons I'm excited about next year. With some hard work, he can develop into someone who can guard inside and outside and become a major asset defensively just as he obviously will be a major offensive asset.

King actually did an incredible job v Gonzaga playing defense in the post and switching to challenge the perimeter....His hustle;strength determination and quicker footwork vs their post players was insurmountable as the Gonzaga guards became tentative in passing the ball to the post because of Nick Kings constant movement around the post players taking away the passing lanes....He was the reason we won that game.....and it was because of defensive post positioning; offensive and defensive rebounding and all out hustle and energy for the ball.....he should play more in these type situations as he can also spread the floor from the 4 position hitting the three; slashing and cutting causing matchup nightmares for the other team

We can't play Shaq and Nichols 30-40 minutes in a game also with the suspension to Dom & injuries to Pellom...This should be his role this year...He has saved our arse playing post defense as it totally rattled Gonzaga as they could not deal with his post positioning footspeed and he also crashed the boards and drew fouls against they're bigs....WE NEED KING @ least 10 minutes per game. As Shaq gets exhausted reason why we lost to UCONN....We cant press with Nichols and Shaq to slow and we need them primarily in our half-court offensive sets....they cannot do both....we need a line-up that can spread the floor and press and King (with adequate practice at this) can anchor that for our team

(03-04-2014 10:39 PM)tigergg Wrote:  The whole thing in a nutshell is we don't have a great(good Defender) on the team period except GJ and he is good(if it weren't for the hand checking rules he could be better than good).. Dixon is pretty good to but the new rules have affected him also..To say that CC is a good defender-not even close, JJ is not a good defender.. So I don't think King is any worse than these 2 guys..King is a better defender than CC..He also does more in the game in his short spurts than anyone else does period, rebound, hustle, and rebounding and rebounding and he is real good,in fact, the best rebounder on the team..But I'm just a fan and it's just my opinion which doesn't mean squat..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

this is where I am too. King is a dropoff in perimeter defending from Joe, and from CC when he is trying, but it's a small dropoff, not a gulf. I like what King brings more than I dislike the loss of perimeter quickness

IF Nick King isn't a liability on defence, it is purely by luck or because he is guarding the 4, or the opponent isn't finding his man. He is also out of position a lot of the time. I'm confident he will turn out to be a great Tiger by the time he is done; but you can see that his foot speed is slow and that he is not playing intuitively yet on either end.

He is a very dominant and intuitive rebounder. That is why he needs to be on the court.