(02-27-2014 08:08 AM)tigerjeb Wrote:  retiring a persons number is the highest honor reserved only for the most remarkable players. jackson is a good and important player, but doesnt rise to the level of those who are retired right now - especially with all his annual off court am i gonna transfer drama. i still maintain we DO need some sort of "ring of honor" type thing where guys like dexter reed, bill cook, tony madlock, david vaughn, lorenzen wright, rodney carney and yes - joe jackson, could be honored.

I respect you a lot Jeb, for you have seen lots of great players wear the Tiger uniform. However, I have to say I disagree with your thoughts about Joe. Yet I do agree with and like your idea about a ring of honor.

Interesting thread.....never thought much about JJ's jersey being retired. He has certainly come a long way in his time in Memphis, and should be saluted for his awesome years on the team. I don't think it's quite up to the standard of having the jersey retired, though. The only possible thing that could change my opinion about that is if the Tigers win it all. Even then, still a bit iffy.

CDR? Yes.
AA? Yes. Tough, gritty player, universally-respected, and good stats.
DJ? My favorite player to watch night in and night out, but not retirement-worthy, in my opinion.

(02-27-2014 08:22 AM)ZachMan Wrote:  

(02-26-2014 09:26 PM)Bluebeard Wrote:  If he leads us to a Final Four, maybe. Anything short of that, no.

CDR's should've already been retired. That's a no brainer.

100% agree with this

(02-27-2014 09:34 AM)Rob Wrote:  

(02-27-2014 08:22 AM)ZachMan Wrote:  

(02-26-2014 09:26 PM)Bluebeard Wrote:  If he leads us to a Final Four, maybe. Anything short of that, no.

CDR's should've already been retired. That's a no brainer.

100% agree with this

Yep, I agree with this too. I also agree with the DJ jersey retirement talk as being beyond ridiculous.

(02-27-2014 10:38 AM)450bench Wrote:  

(02-27-2014 09:34 AM)Rob Wrote:  

(02-27-2014 08:22 AM)ZachMan Wrote:  

(02-26-2014 09:26 PM)Bluebeard Wrote:  If he leads us to a Final Four, maybe. Anything short of that, no.

CDR's should've already been retired. That's a no brainer.

100% agree with this

Yep, I agree with this too. I also agree with the DJ jersey retirement talk as being beyond ridiculous.

the DJ talk is unbelievable

Something else to think about. More than one "jersey" has been "retired" yet the actual "number" wasn't. Case in point...Forest Arnold's "jersey" has been retired, yet more than once has another player worn his #13. Tim Duncan I believe wore number 13 and also another player has worn it, not sure who though. Also, Win Wilfong's "jersey" has been retired yet his #22 has been worn by at least two other really really good players. Bobby Parks wore #22 and I think Dexter Reed did also. So the idea of we will run out of numbers isn't so.

(02-26-2014 10:39 PM)Bluebeard Wrote:  On the other hand, Joe has been a good player who has accounted for 1 tourney win.

Take us to a Final Four, Joe, and then get back to me.

Elliot Perry only had one tourney win and also led the Tigers to NIT losses to Tennessee and Arkansas State.

The problem with retiring jerseys is that it is so subjective, and almost impossible to implement a uniform set of standards that makes sense.

Why should we need to "wait" a few years to think about it. What will Joe accomplish in the next five years that will affect whether his Memphis stats were impressive enough to warrant his jersey being retired. (I still think a wait and see how this year plays out is necessary).

Take Kenon. What, exactly, has he done in the last 40 years that FINALLY made his one season at Memphis worthy of retiring his jersey. It makes zero sense that for 39+ years his jersey was not worthy of retirement, but all of a sudden it is now. (Like the baseball HOF...what made Barry Larking HOF material his 3rd year, but not his 1st or 2nd?)

Taken in a vacuum, Joe has placed himself high enough in several categories (games, wins, points, assists, steals, free throws) not to mention individual accolades (Conf POY, 2 time tourney MOP) to put himself in position.

If the argument that getting a deep tourney run is essential to a jersey retirement, here is a question for the Pastner pumpers: is Josh a really good coach NOW, or does he HAVE to make a tourney run to be considered a great coach?

If one insists Joe needs to accomplish this to been viewed as great, is the same required of Josh?

(02-26-2014 06:20 PM)John44932 Wrote:  

(02-26-2014 06:18 PM)Tigers2B1 Wrote:  HERE >>>

https://twitter.com/TheCAJasonSmith


L. Jason Smith ‏@TheCAJasonSmith
Tigers Hoops Insider in which, again, I ask for your input. Has #goodjoe done enough to have his jersey retired? http://bit.ly/1k9yRqb ($)

Too early, let's see how the tourney goes...

Is Elliot Perry's retired?

(02-27-2014 11:22 AM)bluebacker Wrote:  

(02-26-2014 06:20 PM)John44932 Wrote:  

(02-26-2014 06:18 PM)Tigers2B1 Wrote:  HERE >>>

https://twitter.com/TheCAJasonSmith


L. Jason Smith ‏@TheCAJasonSmith
Tigers Hoops Insider in which, again, I ask for your input. Has #goodjoe done enough to have his jersey retired? http://bit.ly/1k9yRqb ($)

Too early, let's see how the tourney goes...

Is Elliot Perry's retired?

yes his number 34 is retired

(02-27-2014 11:14 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(02-26-2014 10:39 PM)Bluebeard Wrote:  On the other hand, Joe has been a good player who has accounted for 1 tourney win.

Take us to a Final Four, Joe, and then get back to me.

Elliot Perry only had one tourney win and also led the Tigers to NIT losses to Tennessee and Arkansas State.

The problem with retiring jerseys is that it is so subjective, and almost impossible to implement a uniform set of standards that makes sense.

Why should we need to "wait" a few years to think about it. What will Joe accomplish in the next five years that will affect whether his Memphis stats were impressive enough to warrant his jersey being retired. (I still think a wait and see how this year plays out is necessary).

Take Kenon. What, exactly, has he done in the last 40 years that FINALLY made his one season at Memphis worthy of retiring his jersey. It makes zero sense that for 39+ years his jersey was not worthy of retirement, but all of a sudden it is now. (Like the baseball HOF...what made Barry Larking HOF material his 3rd year, but not his 1st or 2nd?)

Taken in a vacuum, Joe has placed himself high enough in several categories (games, wins, points, assists, steals, free throws) not to mention individual accolades (Conf POY, 2 time tourney MOP) to put himself in position.

If the argument that getting a deep tourney run is essential to a jersey retirement, here is a question for the Pastner pumpers: is Josh a really good coach NOW, or does he HAVE to make a tourney run to be considered a great coach?

If one insists Joe needs to accomplish this to been viewed as great, is the same required of Josh?

You wait to see how the numbers sit/hold up related to players that come along, and to weigh impact on the program with a little more perspective.

You don't wait if its obvious to everyone and hits universally accepted standards of greatness. If there is an argument for it but doesn't meet the above, then give it a little time. Just common sense.

Of course someone who is convinced would not agree with waiting, but I'm looking at the big picture where the reality is that not everyone is convinced.

We are talking about the highest and permanent honor.

Winning it all makes that automatic for a coach or for a player with a huge impact on that team.

No one is talking about permanently honoring Pastner, and I don't think anyone has argued that he is an all time great.

The Pastner dialog (in its better moments) has been more along the lines of whether he has the potential to reach the highest level. Simply a different discussion than whether to permanently accord the highest honor.

(02-27-2014 10:53 AM)Joe1 Wrote:  Something else to think about. More than one "jersey" has been "retired" yet not the actual "number" wasn't. Case in point...Forest Arnold's "jersey" has been retired, yet more than once has another player worn his #13. Tim Duncan I believe wore number 13 and also another player has worn it, not sure who though. Also, Win Wilfong's "jersey" has been retired yet his #22 has been worn by at least two other really really good players. Bobby Parks wore #22 and I think Dexter Reed did also. So the idea of we will run out of numbers isn't so.

What does Tim Duncan have to do with this he played at wake forest.

Just messing with you

(02-27-2014 11:41 AM)tigers0830 Wrote:  

(02-27-2014 10:53 AM)Joe1 Wrote:  Something else to think about. More than one "jersey" has been "retired" yet not the actual "number" wasn't. Case in point...Forest Arnold's "jersey" has been retired, yet more than once has another player worn his #13. Tim Duncan I believe wore number 13 and also another player has worn it, not sure who though. Also, Win Wilfong's "jersey" has been retired yet his #22 has been worn by at least two other really really good players. Bobby Parks wore #22 and I think Dexter Reed did also. So the idea of we will run out of numbers isn't so.

What does Tim Duncan have to do with this he played at wake forest.

Just messing with you

funny. that's a good one. I wish that Tim Duncan had played here too though.

(02-27-2014 10:53 AM)Joe1 Wrote:  Something else to think about. More than one "jersey" has been "retired" yet not the actual "number" wasn't. Case in point...Forest Arnold's "jersey" has been retired, yet more than once has another player worn his #13. Tim Duncan I believe wore number 13 and also another player has worn it, not sure who though. Also, Win Wilfong's "jersey" has been retired yet his #22 has been worn by at least two other really really good players. Bobby Parks wore #22 and I think Dexter Reed did also. So the idea of we will run out of numbers isn't so.

Some have been retired much later than they played (decades), so quite possibly after others wore the number. I don't have the respective dates handy to say for certain.

(02-27-2014 11:44 AM)Joe1 Wrote:  

(02-27-2014 11:41 AM)tigers0830 Wrote:  

(02-27-2014 10:53 AM)Joe1 Wrote:  Something else to think about. More than one "jersey" has been "retired" yet not the actual "number" wasn't. Case in point...Forest Arnold's "jersey" has been retired, yet more than once has another player worn his #13. Tim Duncan I believe wore number 13 and also another player has worn it, not sure who though. Also, Win Wilfong's "jersey" has been retired yet his #22 has been worn by at least two other really really good players. Bobby Parks wore #22 and I think Dexter Reed did also. So the idea of we will run out of numbers isn't so.

What does Tim Duncan have to do with this he played at wake forest.

Just messing with you

funny. that's a good one. I wish that Tim Duncan had played here too though.

Don't we all

I get you point, but there is enough "history" of Memphis basketball to recognize that being 7th all time or better in at least 5 categories is exceptional.

Again, for "standards" for retirement, what would they be. Can't be 1st team AA, since that is something that is a complete longshot for a Memphis player and something that hasn't been accomplished by all of the current retirees. How about finishing top 10 in at least five separate career categories or top five in three or something like that? I dunno, it's just hard to lay out a jersey retirement matrix.

Tourney runs? EP never got past the round of 32, yet his jersey was retired the following year.

Let's just say Memphis goes to the S16 this year. Why would waiting one year versus 10 matter? Joe won't be playing any more games in that time and his place in the records will only diminish as others may come along (like he has done) to better the records of players in the past.

(02-27-2014 11:50 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  I get you point, but there is enough "history" of Memphis basketball to recognize that being 7th all time or better in at least 5 categories is exceptional.

Again, for "standards" for retirement, what would they be. Can't be 1st team AA, since that is something that is a complete longshot for a Memphis player and something that hasn't been accomplished by all of the current retirees. How about finishing top 10 in at least five separate career categories or top five in three or something like that? I dunno, it's just hard to lay out a jersey retirement matrix.

Tourney runs? EP never got past the round of 32, yet his jersey was retired the following year.

Let's just say Memphis goes to the S16 this year. Why would waiting one year versus 10 matter? Joe won't be playing any more games in that time and his place in the records will only diminish as others may come along (like he has done) to better the records of players in the past.

great points, there are no reasons to wait in my opinion. The chances of another player doing what only Joe and EP did with points, assists, and steals are very slim. Thus, hanging his number up there makes sense.

(02-26-2014 08:13 PM)450bench Wrote:  CDR yes...Joe no

CDR is worthy, but his entire last season has been erased from the record books. If the runner-up banner from the Cal era cannot hang fromt the rafters, nothing should IMO.

If Tone and CDR aren't, then no.

after those two, we can talk about it.

I do agree with jeb that all of Joe's off the court drama should play into it.

(02-27-2014 11:59 AM)Tigeer Wrote:  

(02-26-2014 08:13 PM)450bench Wrote:  CDR yes...Joe no

CDR is worthy, but his entire last season has been erased from the record books. If the runner-up banner from the Cal era cannot hang fromt the rafters, nothing should IMO.

Again the ncaa can erase it from paper doesn't mean we erase it from our minds. CDR deserves his number to hang up there

(02-27-2014 12:07 PM)madtiger Wrote:  If Tone and CDR aren't, then no.

after those two, we can talk about it.

I do agree with jeb that all of Joe's off the court drama should play into it.

not to argue with you but I don't agree with that. mainly because Joe's problems were not all his own. josh being young didn't make all the right moves on Joe's behalf. Joe will also have two degrees when he gets finished. he is a good kid. josh should shoulder some of the blame with Joe in his first two years. if you disagree with me, that is fine, I don't want to argue. you can also read Tigerpwr's comments about Joe and Josh on this very matter, he makes some good points. also Tigerpawr likes josh a lot