(02-18-2014 09:09 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-18-2014 08:47 AM)bullet Wrote:  "This dip is not an aboration the students of today just don't care as much about sports and I don't think that trend is going to go away."

They don't. They socialize in different ways (see comment about soccer fans). And they all like and grow up with computers/Wiis, etc. Older generations didn't have that. And there are simply more entertainment options. Many of which are less expensive.

For Texas football, each game was $17 at the end of the SWC years and season tickets guaranteed the right to buy OU tickets. There was no donation requirement. Shortly after new season ticket holders had to donate and donations were required to qualify for OU tickets. Next year there is variable game and variable seat pricing, ranging from $350-$600 for season tickets. That's a dramatic increase in a short period of time.

You are spot on Bullet! At Auburn you donate $800 dollars to purchase the right to buy two season tickets in the bend to the center of the end zone in the lower level, or from the 20's to the goal line in the upper deck. The season tickets then cost you $500 a piece. You are now into football for $1800 and you haven't put gas in your car, covered food, or lodging if necessary for your 7 game experience at Jordan Hare of which 3 games are guaranteed duds. So even if you wanted to take your kids you could almost double the initial investment and be looking at an experience of nearly $3000 for the Fall. And those are the cheap seats. I can go to Hawaii and enjoy a week for that! Hmm? Let me think. Games with Chattanooga, La Monroe, and La Tech or Hawaii? Add to that the grossly under reported unemployment coupled with a much quieter problem of former middle class underemployment, coupled with those factors conveniently never included in inflation reports like a 30% rise in food costs in two years, and remaining high fuel costs, and an even higher rise in health care and you have to ask why college football attendance is actually as good as it is.

So absolutely it is much more than just the fact that the kids interests have changed. I have to wonder too following the noted bullying of regular students at Alabama a year or so ago by football players why any students want to turn out to watch them play. Most college kids are smart enough to know that the modern football players taken as a whole, are not their heroes.

BTW: My old roommate shows up for the big games only, buys scalped tickets on or near the 50's for his family (4), and comes out almost $1000 cheaper than when he gave to the GAF like the rest of us. I don't blame him a bit and would have long ago quit that rat race if my wife wasn't so accustomed to seeing the folks we've sat with for 40 years.

We decided it was hard to get to Austin 5/6 times a year with our schedule and dropped season tickets and discovered we could get better seats cheaper with the scalpers or better seats for the same price from the alumni center for all but the biggest games. When the ability to get OU tickets went away, so did a lot of the motivation for buying season tickets.

Although with the printing and scanning technology, scalpers are riskier than they used to be.

Every major sport is now doing very slowly what boxing did relatively quickly. They are pricing new fans out of the market. And at some point, all of your old fans are dead and nobody else cares.

For football this will be a longer term phenomenon. But I think the Jerry Dome in Dallas will be the high water mark for stadium size and inflation adjusted cost. All the politically correct nonsense about concussions and violence is also dragging the sport down. They haven't gone straight pay-per-view, but they are slowly making it harder to see the game you want to see by spreading coverage out over more and more networks.

It's not about current fans losing interest, even though that is happening too. It's more about new kids never developing interest in the first place. We are at the threshold of this happening.

I don't ever go to University of Minnesota revenue sport games unless I get free tickets, and even then it's still an expensive free ticket. But there is a lot of value in non-revenue athletic events and while I have not really become a Goofer "fan" in any meaningful way, I do enjoy what the power and prestige and skilled competition that a Big10 program can provide.

But even at gymnastics meets and swim meets there is paying for parking ($8) concessions ($8 for popcorn, $4 for soda) entrance fees ($10 per adult, $6 for kids) and maybe a program ($5). So to go to a meet at the University of Minnesota costs me as much as $55 for the family for a two hour event. $55 is still a bit rich, but is still less than Applebees.

Additionally, there are a huge number of DivIII schools in the Twin Cities, and going to some of those football games is a hoot. The skills are not as evident, but there is no loud music outside of the band, you can walk up and buy tickets and then sit almost anywhere, you can tailgate within throwing distance of the front entrance, and come and go as you please.

If you have an opportunity to go to a lower level game, or invest your time in following a non-revenue sport, give it a try. It may help you remember that going to games can be fun.

To open a can of worms, is football being ruined by the price of tickets, cost of concessions, parking, and the very long TV commercials to help pay for all of these money losing sports that colleges have added to satisfy the government?

Great topic -- thanks to the OP for posting.

Allow me to share as well.

As a student at ECU, it was EASY for us to get to games, as the tickets were already paid for, and it was an easy walk to Ficklen (and now Dowdy-Ficklen) Stadium, and by-and-large, the opponents were good (Virginia Tech, West Virginia, Miami, FSU, Syracuse, Pitt, South Carolina, sprinkled with Southern Miss, Southwestern LA -- now UL-Lafayette, etc)

Even in Raleigh, at NC State, getting to a game (ECU at NC State) was relatively pain-free -- parking was easy, and crowds of 40K+ were easy to navigate. Well, until that riot ended the series for awhile.

When I graduated, it was not a hassle to make regular trips from Raleigh to Greenville to see the Pirates play. One key factor in this was that gas prices were low, and the economy was good -- it wasn't a drain on a budget back in the late 90s.

However, when the economy tanked in 2001/2002/2003, AND gas prices went up, suddenly folks had decisions to make. For me, it was "do I spend $40-$50 in gas on top of my $40+ ticket to drive 90 miles one way to see ECU vs. C-USA opponents..?" When the economy tanked, the idea of spending $100+ for a game experience involving C-USA schools became unappealing. And especially in the post-Steve Logan era.

Combine that with the fact that in 2003 one could get into an ACC game on the cheap by going over to Wallace Wade Stadium for $25 and see Duke play an ACC school -- that was cheap, but good, entertainment.

---
Today, in addition to the economy not totally getting back to pre-2000 levels and gas prices even higher now, it's also all about the very appealing HDTV experience and not wanting to go out in those crazy crowds each week.

Unless its a game involving marquee schools I've never seen, a matchup I've never seen, or a venue I've never been to, then the HDTV experience is preferred -- beer is available, chips are cheaper and I don't have to worry about that annoying dude behind me with his knee in my back, or the fella in front of me who wants to stand up the entire game.

I do make room for one live game experience each season, but the days of multiple games a season are virtually over.

I have to partially disagree with the post above me as someone that's a young alumni. There's nothing like spending a Saturday outdoors among friends with the smell of a pig cooking and beer flowing. Pirate games are always fun many despite the opponent (we can say this confidently because we've packed 50k for some pretty non-marquee games). Why? For many it's a social thing. Friends, family, acquaintances...they all get together. I think many in ENC really enjoy being outdoors and the big tailgate atmosphere. It's a culture thing..kind of like growing up camping and fishing on the weekends. You just can't get that at home. I do feel you on funding though. I'm praying I get a good enough job out of grad school to fund my Pirate football habits.

The bad thing for many is that ECU recruits the NE heavily (for students). Many move back after school and only get to make that occasional game. That's why I'm excited for ECU to play Navy, UConn, Temple.. the NE alumni will be able to make some away games. I think we have an 18% out of state student population and I'd say 90% are from the DMV area on up to NY.

I'm not from the Triangle, Triad or Metrolina, so these opinions are really reflected from my upbringing in ENC. I do have many friends from other areas though..some come back for the season....some only for homecoming. We'll see how being on ESPN next year affects that (I'm guessing more from the western half of the state will stay home).

(02-18-2014 06:58 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I don't ever go to University of Minnesota revenue sport games unless I get free tickets, and even then it's still an expensive free ticket. But there is a lot of value in non-revenue athletic events and while I have not really become a Goofer "fan" in any meaningful way, I do enjoy what the power and prestige and skilled competition that a Big10 program can provide.

But even at gymnastics meets and swim meets there is paying for parking ($8) concessions ($8 for popcorn, $4 for soda) entrance fees ($10 per adult, $6 for kids) and maybe a program ($5). So to go to a meet at the University of Minnesota costs me as much as $55 for the family for a two hour event. $55 is still a bit rich, but is still less than Applebees.

Additionally, there are a huge number of DivIII schools in the Twin Cities, and going to some of those football games is a hoot. The skills are not as evident, but there is no loud music outside of the band, you can walk up and buy tickets and then sit almost anywhere, you can tailgate within throwing distance of the front entrance, and come and go as you please.

If you have an opportunity to go to a lower level game, or invest your time in following a non-revenue sport, give it a try. It may help you remember that going to games can be fun.

Baseball, men's and women's volleyball, softball, water polo - I enjoyed watching those during my time at UCSB. Good views and great atmosphere.

(02-18-2014 06:58 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I don't ever go to University of Minnesota revenue sport games unless I get free tickets, and even then it's still an expensive free ticket. But there is a lot of value in non-revenue athletic events and while I have not really become a Goofer "fan" in any meaningful way, I do enjoy what the power and prestige and skilled competition that a Big10 program can provide.

But even at gymnastics meets and swim meets there is paying for parking ($8) concessions ($8 for popcorn, $4 for soda) entrance fees ($10 per adult, $6 for kids) and maybe a program ($5). So to go to a meet at the University of Minnesota costs me as much as $55 for the family for a two hour event. $55 is still a bit rich, but is still less than Applebees.

Additionally, there are a huge number of DivIII schools in the Twin Cities, and going to some of those football games is a hoot. The skills are not as evident, but there is no loud music outside of the band, you can walk up and buy tickets and then sit almost anywhere, you can tailgate within throwing distance of the front entrance, and come and go as you please.

If you have an opportunity to go to a lower level game, or invest your time in following a non-revenue sport, give it a try. It may help you remember that going to games can be fun.

I take it that you've never been to O'Shaughnessy Stadium on the St. Thomas campus, where there's always loud music coming out of the sound systen(NFL Films music for early warmups, Drop Kick Murphys(!) later, Black Keys and rap during the game). And strangely, there is no band to speak of.

For me, not having a car, but living near mass transit, makes it easier to go to these lower-level games since the most expensive thing I buy is the ticket itself(Particularly since I have a bus pass that I refill monthly). I'll normally spend $20-30 on concessions/food before the game, and maybe some piece of clothing(if it's inexpensive or on sale). And I don't bring any electronic device with me, other than my cell phone.

I do see why colleges, and pro teams for that matter, are trying to get their current students connected to the game. Unfortunately, they all may have lost the battle. Today's generation is much more interested in pop culture that isn't sports oriented. And it'll get worse in the next several years. People want to be the next Lindsay Lohan or Justin Bieber, not the next Lindsay Whalen or Justin Verlander. There's maybe no stopping it, or containing it either.

(02-18-2014 09:10 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  I take it that you've never been to O'Shaughnessy Stadium on the St. Thomas campus, where there's always loud music coming out of the sound systen(NFL Films music for early warmups, Drop Kick Murphys(!) later, Black Keys and rap during the game). And strangely, there is no band to speak of.

I haven't made it to a home St. Thomas game, but we hit Hamline (wife is an alumni) and Carleton (I randomly know a lot of athletics grads) home games with some regularity and have watched the Tommies. We sometimes make the Carleton games a weekend event and stay Saturday night in Northfield. For those not in the know, Northfield is a quintessential college town; two universities, great old buildings, located on a river etc. Right out of Central Casting.

It all boils down to the fact that todays sports teams and leagues are television products.

Before television, they were 100% dependent on selling tickets, hot dogs, etc to the paying customer. Now they are at minimum 80% dependent on selling a quality television product to the Big 5 (ESPN, NBC/Comcast, FOX, CBS, Turner).

The paying customer has changed which is why games are longer, flow is inconsistent, and prices for the in house game experience have risen. If teams still collected a maximum amount of their income from their in house customers, you would not see the prices you see because it would not be financially sustainable. However things which used to be crucial, like high attendence, are now just the icing on the cake.

The in house customer is not the primary consumer, the Television Networks are as they are the ones that foot the bill. Until the TV money dries up, stick with minor leagues and lower divisions if you want an affordable gameday experience. Any league/team that is becoming rich off of television dollars will not make you, the gameday consumer, a priority.

(02-17-2014 09:45 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  As as ECU goes and I am in town, I'd rather be at any home game versus watching on tv as its the atmosphere and the "being there" factor that can't be overlooked. I attend football, basketball, and baseball games.

The Hurricanes are 70m away from me and I could never afford season tickets for them or the travel expenses to attend more than a few games--at my current rate I try to make 1 regular season game a year--and if we get back to the playoffs, as many as my work schedule allows.

The Panthers are a 4hr drive and there is no way I could pay for season tickets and make the travel considering I work Monday Morning. I've got that down to 1 regular season game a year and usually one early in the season as the ticket prices seem to go up as the season moves on. That said, I like going to a game in person for the Panthers as its the atmosphere that is the critical element you can't duplicate on tv.

I've seen both pro teams and ECU offer Season Ticket mini-packs for fans that can't make all the games...I think it is a good idea.

************

In general, to the argument of tv decreasing attendance

I agree to a point BUT...

Look at the entertainment avenues and costs out there now. There are a lot of options for your dollar. If you are tight on the wallet in this economy you tend to be more frugal--tv vs going.... a simple revenue/cost decision.

Most people can travel on weekends, so how do you expect to draw crowds for midweek games outside your local area? How many times can you ask off from work to travel to a home game? Can you get back at a good hour to go in the next day?

As a fan watching on tv, how do you like watching any kind of game in a empty arena/field/stadium?

The equation changes dramatically when you don't live in Greenville. Changes even more when you're married w/ children, especially if the wife couldn't care less.

Much as I know it will never happen. Football needs to go back to conferences that make geographical and drive time sense.

(02-19-2014 11:37 AM)solohawks Wrote:  It all boils down to the fact that todays sports teams and leagues are television products.

Before television, they were 100% dependent on selling tickets, hot dogs, etc to the paying customer. Now they are at minimum 80% dependent on selling a quality television product to the Big 5 (ESPN, NBC/Comcast, FOX, CBS, Turner).

The paying customer has changed which is why games are longer, flow is inconsistent, and prices for the in house game experience have risen. If teams still collected a maximum amount of their income from their in house customers, you would not see the prices you see because it would not be financially sustainable. However things which used to be crucial, like high attendence, are now just the icing on the cake.

The in house customer is not the primary consumer, the Television Networks are as they are the ones that foot the bill. Until the TV money dries up, stick with minor leagues and lower divisions if you want an affordable gameday experience. Any league/team that is becoming rich off of television dollars will not make you, the gameday consumer, a priority.

I wonder if we will see the day when football and basketball games have in-game ads the way soccer does. A constant rotation of ad graphics with fewer stoppages and instead of 2 and 3 minute commercial breaks, maybe 30 second or one minute commercial breaks.

(02-19-2014 01:37 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(02-19-2014 11:37 AM)solohawks Wrote:  It all boils down to the fact that todays sports teams and leagues are television products.

Before television, they were 100% dependent on selling tickets, hot dogs, etc to the paying customer. Now they are at minimum 80% dependent on selling a quality television product to the Big 5 (ESPN, NBC/Comcast, FOX, CBS, Turner).

The paying customer has changed which is why games are longer, flow is inconsistent, and prices for the in house game experience have risen. If teams still collected a maximum amount of their income from their in house customers, you would not see the prices you see because it would not be financially sustainable. However things which used to be crucial, like high attendence, are now just the icing on the cake.

The in house customer is not the primary consumer, the Television Networks are as they are the ones that foot the bill. Until the TV money dries up, stick with minor leagues and lower divisions if you want an affordable gameday experience. Any league/team that is becoming rich off of television dollars will not make you, the gameday consumer, a priority.

I wonder if we will see the day when football and basketball games have in-game ads the way soccer does. A constant rotation of ad graphics with fewer stoppages and instead of 2 and 3 minute commercial breaks, maybe 30 second or one minute commercial breaks.

I wait anxiously for that day

A lot of talk on here about how you became fans of your team. I'm 31, and I became a fan of UC by watching them play basketball on TV. But I didn't attend a single game until college.

The first game I attended was as an undergrad (at a different school) I visited my little brother at UC and watched them play South Carolina in the NIT. Then I went to UC for grad school and even though tickets were free, I didn't go to most of the games until my 2nd year (when they got really, really good). After graduating, I still lived in the neighborhood and continued to attend nearly every game until I moved 3 hours away. Now I go to 1 game a year, usually during Thanksgiving.

The problem isn't video games. It's improved TV access. The simple fact is that it's not worth sacrificing 6-7 weekends in the fall to attend every football game when I can watch most of them on TV. If I lived right near the stadium like I used to, I'd probably still go to most games.

Oh yeah, one reason why UC student attendance is bucking the trend: we sell alcohol at all fb and bb games. Have other schools always prohibited alcohol at games? When did this prohibition start at your school?

(02-18-2014 09:10 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  

(02-18-2014 06:58 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I don't ever go to University of Minnesota revenue sport games unless I get free tickets, and even then it's still an expensive free ticket. But there is a lot of value in non-revenue athletic events and while I have not really become a Goofer "fan" in any meaningful way, I do enjoy what the power and prestige and skilled competition that a Big10 program can provide.

But even at gymnastics meets and swim meets there is paying for parking ($8) concessions ($8 for popcorn, $4 for soda) entrance fees ($10 per adult, $6 for kids) and maybe a program ($5). So to go to a meet at the University of Minnesota costs me as much as $55 for the family for a two hour event. $55 is still a bit rich, but is still less than Applebees.

Additionally, there are a huge number of DivIII schools in the Twin Cities, and going to some of those football games is a hoot. The skills are not as evident, but there is no loud music outside of the band, you can walk up and buy tickets and then sit almost anywhere, you can tailgate within throwing distance of the front entrance, and come and go as you please.

If you have an opportunity to go to a lower level game, or invest your time in following a non-revenue sport, give it a try. It may help you remember that going to games can be fun.

I take it that you've never been to O'Shaughnessy Stadium on the St. Thomas campus, where there's always loud music coming out of the sound systen(NFL Films music for early warmups, Drop Kick Murphys(!) later, Black Keys and rap during the game). And strangely, there is no band to speak of.

For me, not having a car, but living near mass transit, makes it easier to go to these lower-level games since the most expensive thing I buy is the ticket itself(Particularly since I have a bus pass that I refill monthly). I'll normally spend $20-30 on concessions/food before the game, and maybe some piece of clothing(if it's inexpensive or on sale). And I don't bring any electronic device with me, other than my cell phone.

I do see why colleges, and pro teams for that matter, are trying to get their current students connected to the game. Unfortunately, they all may have lost the battle. Today's generation is much more interested in pop culture that isn't sports oriented. And it'll get worse in the next several years. People want to be the next Lindsay Lohan or Justin Bieber, not the next Lindsay Whalen or Justin Verlander. There's maybe no stopping it, or containing it either.

St. Thomas is my new favorite non-FBS school!!!

(02-19-2014 04:27 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Oh yeah, one reason why UC student attendance is bucking the trend: we sell alcohol at all fb and bb games. Have other schools always prohibited alcohol at games? When did this prohibition start at your school?

No, we used to sell it. At football games it was just a little beer stand behind the non-student side, so there wasn't very convenient access for them. Now they just go to Beat the Clock at Brick Street on Saturdays, $1 pitchers of Natty Light are a lot more fun than Miami football these days.