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UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
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Hitch Offline
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Post: #41
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 09:54 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  A difference of roughly 100 points, give or take, between the highest average SAT scores and lowest is a lot less than I would have though.

Yeah, but only one program managed to break 1000.
02-12-2014 11:10 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #42
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 11:10 AM)Hitch Wrote:  
(02-12-2014 09:54 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  A difference of roughly 100 points, give or take, between the highest average SAT scores and lowest is a lot less than I would have though.

Yeah, but only one program managed to break 1000.

Yea, that is surprising. That doesn't make you a competitive applicant at any decent school.
02-12-2014 11:11 AM
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Hitch Offline
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Post: #43
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 11:11 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(02-12-2014 11:10 AM)Hitch Wrote:  
(02-12-2014 09:54 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  A difference of roughly 100 points, give or take, between the highest average SAT scores and lowest is a lot less than I would have though.

Yeah, but only one program managed to break 1000.

Yea, that is surprising. That doesn't make you a competitive applicant at any decent school.

Every year I watch the recruiting bonanza and think, "wait, when did these kids actually apply?"
02-12-2014 11:13 AM
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Post: #44
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 09:26 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-12-2014 01:56 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(02-11-2014 10:23 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-11-2014 06:15 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(02-11-2014 05:49 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  They do not belong at a University.

Absolutely. Go back to night school or to the community college. Schools like UNC do that to non-athletes every day.

And considering what big schools like that do to regular students tranferring from two-year schools, like additional testing and background checks, what UNC is doing is disgustingly insulting.

Agreed.
And its every bit as bad that the NCAA ignores this.

Suppose your city has an ordinance (like mine does) that prohibits you from parking your RV on the street. Then suppose that you have an RV and you park it on a street near your house because you don't have enough room in your driveway for it. If your neighbor gets an RV and parks it on the street, are you going to call the police and ask them to ticket your neighbor or tow his RV? Of course not. You're just hoping the city has better things to do because you don't want your own RV ticketed or towed.

And that's why the NCAA doesn't bring the hammer down on these non-students at UNC. The NCAA ignores this because the influential members want the NCAA to ignore it. Because UNC isn't the only place where this happens.
I don't believe there are a lot of schools with fictional classes.

I think Willingham's report showed there were a lot of very marginal academic students at most schools. That's different from what UNC did. And a lot of them didn't ignore the issue when they were asked about it by CNN.

The APR IS a way to address it. But when schools do what UNC did, that undermines it.

Fictional classes is (hopefully) not a widespread thing.

But, just the fact that there are a lot of athletes who are very marginal students has to be a huge red flag. When that many kids who probably shouldn't even be in college somehow manage to pass enough college classes to stay eligible for four or five years, that's fishy.
02-12-2014 12:35 PM
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Post: #45
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 12:44 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They give kids a "social pass" on to the next grade, even if they can't read, in order to prevent the kid from being bullied. The public school sustem failed these kids; that's a given.

The fact that universities continue that failure is the broader issue here.

UNC is far from alone in failing these kids.
When I was growing up the kids who got held back were the bullies, not the ones who left them behind.

Today's society is totally screwed up, and they think everything is fine. 03-banghead
02-12-2014 02:24 PM
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Post: #46
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-11-2014 11:45 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-11-2014 11:41 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  Unc, the NCAA, the high schools, middle schools, teachers, parents..etc all need a good kick in the nads.

1. How does unc get away with constructing an underground college that funnels illiterate players into academic programs where they get degrees. This undermines the work of legitimate students who actually work for their.grades. its also unfair to their teammates who put in hard work on the field and in the classroom. The state really needs to get involved imo.
2. Ncaa-See above
3. Any HS who lets these kids graduate is just as bad. Unfair to the other kids. Instead of worrying about the bad press from a kid failing, why not make some positive press and actually teach a young man (or woman) how to read? It may be the last shot for some of them.
4. Middle schools- see above
5. What kind of teacher passes a kid who cant read? Maybe some higher power might step in but teachers should.really speak out against this. I know many try to help as much as they can. Some probably have more students in these situations than they can take on. Again, some sort of program needs to be developed. This may be more for the administrators.
6. What parent lets their kid grow up illiterate? Probably someone who cant read...which is sad. But put the shame aside and get your child some help..

The apologists are sickening. These are kids who should at the very minimum be able to read. Keep them in school and stop making it look so bad to be held back. Why is it that people who weren't ready for college can attend in their adult years but graduate HS two years late and It's the end of the world?

You left out 1 good point. Handing out bogus degrees cheapens the status of everyone who earned a degree at North Carolina, especially athletes who legitimately earned degrees.
And they take one of the limited slots at these restricted admission universities from someone who might actually benefit.
02-12-2014 02:55 PM
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Post: #47
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
You know what's funny? There's actually a kid in one of my graduate classes who transferred from UNC & played football there. Didn't see much playing time. His work is graduate level and it makes me wonder if the people who started over him are anywhere near his level academically. Very unfair to him. That said, he didn't see much playing time here either (but he came in at a bad time with Coop being a star for ECU and all.. and I've talked to Coop as well, he can hold a conversation).
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2014 03:22 PM by ncbeta.)
02-12-2014 03:21 PM
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Post: #48
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 12:44 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They give kids a "social pass" on to the next grade, even if they can't read, in order to prevent the kid from being bullied. The public school sustem failed these kids; that's a given.

The fact that universities continue that failure is the broader issue here.

UNC is far from alone in failing these kids.

Again... I will type slowly... UNC IS NOT FAILING THESE KIDS!!!!! THEY ARE GRADUATING THEM!!!

I'm sure primary and secondary schools are passing them, probably due to their athletic ability, but many teachers are pressured to pass them in order to keep their jobs or for the school to keep their funding. Colleges and universities do not have to take them like elementary and high schools do. UNC seems to be the only school that is NOT "failing" them! Other schools may take them and try to keep them in school, but it looks like UNC is passing out degrees like they were M&Ms!

And that is where is UNC is alone. They (NC tax payers) are paying their multimillion dollar PR team plenty of money to keep the narrative of "everyone's doing it." Their mascot isn't a sheep by accident.
02-12-2014 03:30 PM
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Post: #49
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 09:54 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  A difference of roughly 100 points, give or take, between the highest average SAT scores and lowest is a lot less than I would have though.

The problem isn't with the average test scores. If you have one kid with a score of 1200 and one with 800, the average of 1000 doesn't sound bad at all. But chances are, the one with the 800 isn't prepared for college.
02-12-2014 03:45 PM
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RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 03:21 PM)ncbeta Wrote:  You know what's funny? There's actually a kid in one of my graduate classes who transferred from UNC & played football there. Didn't see much playing time. His work is graduate level and it makes me wonder if the people who started over him are anywhere near his level academically. Very unfair to him. That said, he didn't see much playing time here either (but he came in at a bad time with Coop being a star for ECU and all.. and I've talked to Coop as well, he can hold a conversation).

That reminds me of a running back from a poor South Georgia High School that my school, a prominent ACC school, a prominent State school, and a prominent SWC school were recruiting back in the early 80's. All four were guilty of recruiting violations with this kid. My school had a ringer take his SAT, the ACC school had already set up a ringer to take his SAT and offered more direct inducements, The SWC school offered both he and his cousin before him major illegal inducements, but the prominent State school told him on signing day that if he left the state his parents wouldn't find any jobs in their future (a lovely tactic to pull on a poor uneducated 18 year old). By that time both my school and the ACC school had retreated from recruitment because the inducements and other infractions were reported to their presidents and they backed away. The SWC school did not back away and it hurt them. The State school landed him and he flunked out after 1 year (yes the state school's academics had standards when their athletic department didn't). I had taken the time to speak to his High School English teacher and had asked her if we was capable of college work. She told me he could make a legible X and that the crime was that the local high school's touchdown club in a football crazy town had brought local pressure to pass him along since grade school so he could play. And this was possible because of the local football crazy families on the school board. The crime goes all the way down through the education system and out into the public. That's why I have such a negative opinion of recruiting in general.

In today's battlefield of recruiting the most successful workarounds to illegal inducements have ties to state officials who will likely never be subpoenaed, an art perfected in two Southern States, both with prominent state law schools that produce alumni who occupy state offices in sufficient numbers to help out their alma maters, and one that due to past involvement by leadership in the NCAA will likely never be touched by our governing organization (yet another reason I despise the NCAA).

But in North Carolina's case the issue isn't the usual turning of a blind eye by the institution, it is a level of misdeed that incorporates full complicity by the institution at administrative levels. That's a whole new animal. Most every administration just plays don't ask, don't tell, to maintain plausible deniability and to protect the institution's academic credentials as being separate and "uninformed" about athletic misdeeds. That is why simply reporting infractions to the offending schools president almost always resulted in internal discipline without having to take it to the NCAA which has always been arbitrary and very political in their adjudication of infractions.

To confront this we must first acknowledge the total depravity of our society's values and its complete disregard for individuals who can make state entities and corporate interests wealthier and which prey upon the ignorance and profit from the risk to those individuals and when questioned hold up the low percentage of those persons who make it to the real payoff of professional sports as the shining example of the opportunities they have given in exchange for such success. But, it is what it is, the opportunity is real even though the percentage of success is very low and nothing much has changed about this since football started to get popular in the 1920's.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2014 04:07 PM by JRsec.)
02-12-2014 04:05 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #51
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
I generally try to avoid threads like this, because they often end up being vehicles for rival bashing. There's even some of that here. But I'd like to make some observations about the broad issues that are raised here.

I believe the NCAA, through its member schools, deserves a lot of the blame here. I'm not sure if the schools that push back against tougher initial eligibility requirements are the big schools, like the P5, or the lesser schools. I would hope it isn't the P5, because those are usually the schools that are the most challenging, academically. Maybe we'll find out if the P5 get the autonomy they seek.

There are two main ways I think the NCAA contributes to the problem. First, they make a big deal about not allowing athletes to receive benefits not available to the typical student. But they allow schools to provide extensive tutoring programs for athletes. In effect, they are acknowledging that many of these athletes can't handle college level work on their own. Heck, schools even brag about the academic "support" they provide to athletes, as if it's something they should be proud of. Newsflash - it isn't the kid with the 1100-1200 SAT score who is getting this "support". It's the kid who doesn't belong in college in the first place.

Secondly, the NCAA undermines its own efforts at establishing realistic minimum academic standards when it uses a sliding scale of test scores vs GPAs for initial eligibility. You shouldn't need a respectable GPA or a good SAT score to qualify. You should need both. The new, tougher, standards scheduled to go into effect in a couple of years say that if you only have a 2.3 GPA, you need to score 1080 on your SATs. But if you have a 3.0 GPA, you only need to score 620. To show how ridiculous this scale is, if you have a 4.0 GPA you only need a 400 - the score you get for turning in a blank test.

I'm sure there may be an exception or two every few years, but I believe that if a kid only scored a 620 on his SAT but had a 3.0 GPA, somebody - a lot of somebodies - was giving him grades he didn't earn or deserve. These aren't examples of "social promotions". You don't give B's to a social promotion. These are examples of a high school being complicit in allowing kids who are sometimes functionally illiterate to bypass their own academic eligibility rules because they are helping dear old Central High win on the field or on the court.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2014 04:14 PM by ken d.)
02-12-2014 04:13 PM
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Post: #52
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 01:34 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  UNC is far from alone here

the real issue is that it is the idiots that run university education departments and "psychologist" and "sociology" departments and others that push this "you can't hold Felony McMushmouth back in 3rd grade because it hurts their touchy feelies"

then of course they complain when that same moron ends up in one of their college classes and THEY get pressure to pass them because they can put a ball through a hoop then suddenly it is a scandal and a crime and objectionable

I have said it before and people doubt it, but I think the NCAA soon will pay attention to academics much more with players that do not meet NCAA set min standards being held from competition until they pass a certain core of courses in college with a set GPA......schools can admit them, place them on scholarship for as long as they want, but until they meet the grades and core courses (more hours required each year say 24 credit hours per year) they can't step on the field

a university could have a player for 5 years with 90 credit hours with a 2.01 GPA and they would be at the end of their eligibility and never would have set foot on the field or court

high schools and the like need to start cracking down on athletics participation as well and this idea that "they won't come to school if they can't ball" needs to be tossed in the trash in favor of "they will never ball if they can't read, write and do basic math" and if they act like a fool because they can't ball and just don't care well they will be in for a school career of getting up VERY early to catch the short bus to their moron school where they can be spoon fed and controlled before they get out VERY LATE in the day for their LONG short bus ride back home......their life will consist of school, bus rides, eating, sleep and repeat and if they are not at grade level at the end of the year their summer life will consist of school, eating, sleep and repeat

out the door at 6am to catch the short bus, back home at 6:30/7 pm off the short bus......special schools where they are away from everyone else and acting a fool just gets you further isolated instead of disrupting others at the regular schools and that is your life for the next 12 years of your life until you end up at the drive thru window or in jail or both

who cares if it is the only way some of these fools will ever make money all that brings is them blowing that money on crap, acting like a fool, making fun babies they can't support and ending up millions in debt at 30 and with ZERO job skills and a life of entitled feelings to go with it and a probable future in jail

might as well cut the fun at grade 1 and set them on their path early on and stop giving them the few years of fun and fame in HS and college and perhaps the pros before they step into the real world as a broke 30yo loser that use to have money and be a "hero"

I would like to offer a "grand bargain", to borrow a political phrase, to the P5. Get the autonomy you seek, and then change the rules as follows. Eliminate freshman eligibility (in football and basketball at least). You had it right years ago. To become eligible to play, a student must complete a minimum of 30 credit hours in core courses, required of all students as a prerequisite to getting a degree, with a minimum GPA of 2.5. You must do this within two semesters, plus summer school, of your high school graduation. If you fail to achieve this, you can't play in that top division - ever.

In exchange for this tougher requirement, change the rules on scholarship limits. Allow each school to have 70 undergraduate scholarship players, not counting the freshmen who are earning their way on to the field. Then allow them to have as many graduate students as they want, provided they got their degree from your own institution. And allow graduate student-athletes to play until six years after their high school class graduated.

Let's provide rewards for schools who graduate their players, instead of punishing the ones who don't. And if a school wants to recruit a lot of kids who will leave for the NFL after playing for only two years, they better also recruit a lot of kids who will play for four or five years.
02-12-2014 04:35 PM
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Post: #53
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 04:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-12-2014 01:34 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  UNC is far from alone here

the real issue is that it is the idiots that run university education departments and "psychologist" and "sociology" departments and others that push this "you can't hold Felony McMushmouth back in 3rd grade because it hurts their touchy feelies"

then of course they complain when that same moron ends up in one of their college classes and THEY get pressure to pass them because they can put a ball through a hoop then suddenly it is a scandal and a crime and objectionable

I have said it before and people doubt it, but I think the NCAA soon will pay attention to academics much more with players that do not meet NCAA set min standards being held from competition until they pass a certain core of courses in college with a set GPA......schools can admit them, place them on scholarship for as long as they want, but until they meet the grades and core courses (more hours required each year say 24 credit hours per year) they can't step on the field

a university could have a player for 5 years with 90 credit hours with a 2.01 GPA and they would be at the end of their eligibility and never would have set foot on the field or court

high schools and the like need to start cracking down on athletics participation as well and this idea that "they won't come to school if they can't ball" needs to be tossed in the trash in favor of "they will never ball if they can't read, write and do basic math" and if they act like a fool because they can't ball and just don't care well they will be in for a school career of getting up VERY early to catch the short bus to their moron school where they can be spoon fed and controlled before they get out VERY LATE in the day for their LONG short bus ride back home......their life will consist of school, bus rides, eating, sleep and repeat and if they are not at grade level at the end of the year their summer life will consist of school, eating, sleep and repeat

out the door at 6am to catch the short bus, back home at 6:30/7 pm off the short bus......special schools where they are away from everyone else and acting a fool just gets you further isolated instead of disrupting others at the regular schools and that is your life for the next 12 years of your life until you end up at the drive thru window or in jail or both

who cares if it is the only way some of these fools will ever make money all that brings is them blowing that money on crap, acting like a fool, making fun babies they can't support and ending up millions in debt at 30 and with ZERO job skills and a life of entitled feelings to go with it and a probable future in jail

might as well cut the fun at grade 1 and set them on their path early on and stop giving them the few years of fun and fame in HS and college and perhaps the pros before they step into the real world as a broke 30yo loser that use to have money and be a "hero"

I would like to offer a "grand bargain", to borrow a political phrase, to the P5. Get the autonomy you seek, and then change the rules as follows. Eliminate freshman eligibility (in football and basketball at least). You had it right years ago. To become eligible to play, a student must complete a minimum of 30 credit hours in core courses, required of all students as a prerequisite to getting a degree, with a minimum GPA of 2.5. You must do this within two semesters, plus summer school, of your high school graduation. If you fail to achieve this, you can't play in that top division - ever.

In exchange for this tougher requirement, change the rules on scholarship limits. Allow each school to have 70 undergraduate scholarship players, not counting the freshmen who are earning their way on to the field. Then allow them to have as many graduate students as they want, provided they got their degree from your own institution. And allow graduate student-athletes to play until six years after their high school class graduated.

Let's provide rewards for schools who graduate their players, instead of punishing the ones who don't. And if a school wants to recruit a lot of kids who will leave for the NFL after playing for only two years, they better also recruit a lot of kids who will play for four or five years.

Another well reasoned post. For years college athletic's were far from perfect, but athletic dorms, freshmen requirements for eligibility, and I might add total flexibility in scheduling were all good things with many more upsides than negatives. They allowed for disciplinary oversight for kids in the breach between being an adolescent and becoming an adult. That discipline allowed for maturation in focus and study as well. Their physical and mental needs were met through medical attention, training staff, tutors, planned meals, and the dorm rules made sure that they didn't hang with people that would either get them arrested or killed. I'm sorry that Barry Switzer put the kabosh to it.

It is funny how old ways of doing things keep coming back up. I love it when folks talk about the ACC scheduling plan as a new idea. It was the same system used by the SEC when we were still a 10 team conference way back when. The only thing changed is the frequency of rotation. But the need to return to freshmen having to successfully complete a year of education before becoming eligible should never have been abandoned. Doing so opened Pandora's box with regard to any kind of institutional accountability.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2014 04:53 PM by JRsec.)
02-12-2014 04:50 PM
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Post: #54
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 04:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-12-2014 01:34 AM)TodgeRodge Wrote:  UNC is far from alone here

the real issue is that it is the idiots that run university education departments and "psychologist" and "sociology" departments and others that push this "you can't hold Felony McMushmouth back in 3rd grade because it hurts their touchy feelies"

then of course they complain when that same moron ends up in one of their college classes and THEY get pressure to pass them because they can put a ball through a hoop then suddenly it is a scandal and a crime and objectionable

I have said it before and people doubt it, but I think the NCAA soon will pay attention to academics much more with players that do not meet NCAA set min standards being held from competition until they pass a certain core of courses in college with a set GPA......schools can admit them, place them on scholarship for as long as they want, but until they meet the grades and core courses (more hours required each year say 24 credit hours per year) they can't step on the field

a university could have a player for 5 years with 90 credit hours with a 2.01 GPA and they would be at the end of their eligibility and never would have set foot on the field or court

high schools and the like need to start cracking down on athletics participation as well and this idea that "they won't come to school if they can't ball" needs to be tossed in the trash in favor of "they will never ball if they can't read, write and do basic math" and if they act like a fool because they can't ball and just don't care well they will be in for a school career of getting up VERY early to catch the short bus to their moron school where they can be spoon fed and controlled before they get out VERY LATE in the day for their LONG short bus ride back home......their life will consist of school, bus rides, eating, sleep and repeat and if they are not at grade level at the end of the year their summer life will consist of school, eating, sleep and repeat

out the door at 6am to catch the short bus, back home at 6:30/7 pm off the short bus......special schools where they are away from everyone else and acting a fool just gets you further isolated instead of disrupting others at the regular schools and that is your life for the next 12 years of your life until you end up at the drive thru window or in jail or both

who cares if it is the only way some of these fools will ever make money all that brings is them blowing that money on crap, acting like a fool, making fun babies they can't support and ending up millions in debt at 30 and with ZERO job skills and a life of entitled feelings to go with it and a probable future in jail

might as well cut the fun at grade 1 and set them on their path early on and stop giving them the few years of fun and fame in HS and college and perhaps the pros before they step into the real world as a broke 30yo loser that use to have money and be a "hero"

I would like to offer a "grand bargain", to borrow a political phrase, to the P5. Get the autonomy you seek, and then change the rules as follows. Eliminate freshman eligibility (in football and basketball at least). You had it right years ago. To become eligible to play, a student must complete a minimum of 30 credit hours in core courses, required of all students as a prerequisite to getting a degree, with a minimum GPA of 2.5. You must do this within two semesters, plus summer school, of your high school graduation. If you fail to achieve this, you can't play in that top division - ever.

In exchange for this tougher requirement, change the rules on scholarship limits. Allow each school to have 70 undergraduate scholarship players, not counting the freshmen who are earning their way on to the field. Then allow them to have as many graduate students as they want, provided they got their degree from your own institution. And allow graduate student-athletes to play until six years after their high school class graduated.

Let's provide rewards for schools who graduate their players, instead of punishing the ones who don't. And if a school wants to recruit a lot of kids who will leave for the NFL after playing for only two years, they better also recruit a lot of kids who will play for four or five years.

North Carolina graduated their players.

The scholarship limits actually discourage teams from taking these marginal players. Raising them would allow them to take more academic risks. Lowering them might help discourage taking some of these kids who have no business in a 4 year school. ANY 4 year school, let alone a North Carolina.
02-12-2014 05:12 PM
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RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
(02-12-2014 03:30 PM)Leargh! Wrote:  
(02-12-2014 12:44 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  They give kids a "social pass" on to the next grade, even if they can't read, in order to prevent the kid from being bullied. The public school sustem failed these kids; that's a given.

The fact that universities continue that failure is the broader issue here.

UNC is far from alone in failing these kids.

Again... I will type slowly... UNC IS NOT FAILING THESE KIDS!!!!! THEY ARE GRADUATING THEM!!!

I'm sure primary and secondary schools are passing them, probably due to their athletic ability, but many teachers are pressured to pass them in order to keep their jobs or for the school to keep their funding. Colleges and universities do not have to take them like elementary and high schools do. UNC seems to be the only school that is NOT "failing" them! Other schools may take them and try to keep them in school, but it looks like UNC is passing out degrees like they were M&Ms!

And that is where is UNC is alone. They (NC tax payers) are paying their multimillion dollar PR team plenty of money to keep the narrative of "everyone's doing it." Their mascot isn't a sheep by accident.

Right over your head.

They are failing them in the sense they are allowing them to move along without being prepared.

03-phew
02-13-2014 12:53 AM
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Leargh! Offline
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Post: #56
UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
Not over my head. I got that. I was only pointing out that while ALL schools are "failing" these illiterates by passing them, UNC is not. These illiterates don't want an education. If they did they would have received help along the way somewhere.

Again, the issue is that it is not UNC's job to teach them to read. No university in the country should teach anyone to read. They should be advancing the students education. Any adult (and the "student"-athletes are adults), that doesn't know how to read IS NOT A STUDENT. They are ringers. Using a Ringer is cheating. UNC's cheating is the issue, not the conflict between academics and athletics. Until this scandal finally made the national news, the "academics" in Chapel Hill had no problem with athletics as long as they got their discount tickets to the Dean dome for the big games! I'm sure the discount was based on how many A's they gave away to "students" they've never laid eyes on. Taking in a "special case" periodically is one thing. Maybe a reading level above 8th/9th grade can be caught up enough to actually succeed in college, not really probable. But I doubt those students would graduate in less than three years, as is usually the case at UNC. But for a university to take in students that are functionally illiterate and not ready for grade school, much less a junior college, is only cheating real students out of an education just so they can win in sports.

Not trying to argue with you or anyone else, but after listening to the phrase "The Carolina Way" for my entire life, I am getting really sick of now the new mantra from Heater Hill of "Everybody does it." They can't have it both ways.


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(This post was last modified: 02-13-2014 04:21 AM by Leargh!.)
02-13-2014 01:42 AM
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #57
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
Anyone that grew up in NC knows all too well about Chapel Hill's " holier than thou Carolina Way" complex. The comeuppance is well deserved. Is Chapel Hill the only school to cheat this way? Absolutely not. Does that absolve Chapel Hill of its cheating ways? Absolutely not. Should Chapel Hill get punished accordingly? Absolutely. Will it? Nope. Why? $$$$
Chapel Hill may not get what it deserves but it's "holier than thou Carolina Way Public Ivy persona is forever dead never to return.
02-13-2014 06:13 PM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #58
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
A Kent St. wrestler got indefinitely suspended for tweeting gay slurs in the aftermath of the Missouri player's public declaration.

I have to wonder if a basketball or football player would have gotten the same punishment. Or since they were revenue sports, only gotten a stern talking to and warning. Some schools let them get away with crimes. And if they are good enough, they get put back on the team, even if they get suspended. Lawrence Phillips beat up his girlfriend, a fellow Nebraska athlete and came back to play. The LSU and Auburn QBs got recruited after getting kicked off UGA's team. The LSU QB was feeling up a waitress. The Auburn QB participated in a theft from a teammate's dorm room.

And certainly with some schools, they get let in whether they can read or not, if they are good enough. They really should have the same standards for all sports.
02-14-2014 08:51 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #59
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nca...s/5708431/

Quote:North Carolina has hired an outside attorney to conduct yet another independent review of irregularities in an academic department featuring classes with significant athlete enrollments.

The school said Friday that Kenneth L. Wainstein — a 19-year veteran of the U.S. Justice Department — would look into any additional information that might become available from a criminal probe into fraud in the formerly named Department of African and Afro-American Studies dating back to the late 1990s.
02-22-2014 07:07 AM
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ncbeta Offline
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Post: #60
RE: UNC whistleblower Willingham: Academic sins not isolated
Looks like they'll whitewash the whole thing.
02-22-2014 05:02 PM
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