(02-13-2014 02:38 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-13-2014 02:23 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  

(02-13-2014 12:15 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-13-2014 11:44 AM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  

(02-13-2014 11:28 AM)450bench Wrote:  You referenced Grice, Carney, Forman, Shawne and Banks, who for the most part, had a 4 and 5 in the lineup with them.
This team and this lineup are totally different. King is a good 3 point shooter, maybe our best in summer workouts. Has he had that chance with the 1 big lineup? No, because his minutes are as a 4. He's playing with 3 other guards on the floor with him along with 1 big.
Nick is a shooter, slasher with a knack for the ball and the ability to rebound from various spots. He's about 6-6 and weighs about 200 pounds. He's got serious potential here as a 3.

You beat me to it. Fans have gotten so accustomed to us playing small ball the past few years they have forgotten we HAD always played a true 3-4-5.

This isn't true. Cal's most successful early season was with Grice playing the 4. Cal's first truly successful season in the NCAA tournament was with Shawne Williams playing the 4. Both Cal and Pastner are doing everything they can to win with the players they have.

I also forgot Sean Banks in 2004

Memphis 2004
30 games
2,400 minutes at the 4/5 (30 X 80)

636 Erwin
459 Lopez
240 Barclay
161 Diarra
16 Thierro
1,512 minutes at the 4/5

2,400 - 1,512 = 888 minutes left over

Sean Banks
1,032 minutes

Therefore, Banks played 888 out of his 1,032 minutes, or 86% of his minutes at the 4.

2002 - Scooter, not a true 3
2003 - Grice, not a true 4
2004 - Banks, not a true 4
2005 - Check
2006 - Shawne, not a true 4

In a 4 out of 5 year stretch, we did not play a traditional lineup with Cal as our coach. I did not check before 2002 but I do know for a fact that we played 1 of the seasons with Chatman as our point guard, and he wasn't a true point guard.

So we didn’t play a traditional lineup? Here’s the lineup when Scooter was playing. At times scooter played the 2 guard and the 3, and at times this team went big with Barron, Massey, and Kelly wise. Cal didn’t play small ball ALL of the time like we are doing now…

2001-02 Memphis Tigers Roster

Arthur Barclay SO F 6-8
Earl Barron JR C 7-0
Antonio Burks SO G 6-1
Modibo Diarra SO C 6-10
Duane Erwin FR F 6-9
Chris Massie JR C 6-8
Scooter McFadgon SO G 6-5
Anthony Rice FR G 6-4
Nathaniel Root JR G 5-11
Dajuan Wagner FR G 6-2
Kelly Wise SR FR F 6-10

At 6-6 and physical John Grice was a 4. He was shorter than Carney but he could bang and rebound plus shoot the 3 ball. We also had Barron & Massey too. We didn’t play two 6-1 guards and a 6-4 at the same time all of the time…

2002-03 Memphis Tigers Roster

Earl Barron SR C 7-0
Antonio Burks JR G 6-1
Patrick Byrne FR
Rodney Carney FR F 6-7
Modibo Diarra JR C 6-10
Duane Erwin SO F 6-9
Garrick Green FR
John Grice SR F 6-6
Jeremy Hunt FR G 6-5
Chris Massie SR C 6-8 16.7
Brian Mitchell FR
Anthony Rice SO G 6-4
Billy Richmond SO G 6-5
Nathaniel Root SR G 5-11
Almamy Thiero FR F 6-10
Clyde Wade FR G 6-0

And I don’t even see how you can say Sean Banks at 6-8 and Shawne Williams at 6-9 were not true 4’s. They were.

Now you are going loony on us.

Who is us?

(02-13-2014 02:23 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  

(02-13-2014 12:15 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-13-2014 11:44 AM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  

(02-13-2014 11:28 AM)450bench Wrote:  You referenced Grice, Carney, Forman, Shawne and Banks, who for the most part, had a 4 and 5 in the lineup with them.
This team and this lineup are totally different. King is a good 3 point shooter, maybe our best in summer workouts. Has he had that chance with the 1 big lineup? No, because his minutes are as a 4. He's playing with 3 other guards on the floor with him along with 1 big.
Nick is a shooter, slasher with a knack for the ball and the ability to rebound from various spots. He's about 6-6 and weighs about 200 pounds. He's got serious potential here as a 3.

You beat me to it. Fans have gotten so accustomed to us playing small ball the past few years they have forgotten we HAD always played a true 3-4-5.

This isn't true. Cal's most successful early season was with Grice playing the 4. Cal's first truly successful season in the NCAA tournament was with Shawne Williams playing the 4. Both Cal and Pastner are doing everything they can to win with the players they have.

I also forgot Sean Banks in 2004

Memphis 2004
30 games
2,400 minutes at the 4/5 (30 X 80)

636 Erwin
459 Lopez
240 Barclay
161 Diarra
16 Thierro
1,512 minutes at the 4/5

2,400 - 1,512 = 888 minutes left over

Sean Banks
1,032 minutes

Therefore, Banks played 888 out of his 1,032 minutes, or 86% of his minutes at the 4.

2002 - Scooter, not a true 3
2003 - Grice, not a true 4
2004 - Banks, not a true 4
2005 - Check
2006 - Shawne, not a true 4

In a 4 out of 5 year stretch, we did not play a traditional lineup with Cal as our coach. I did not check before 2002 but I do know for a fact that we played 1 of the seasons with Chatman as our point guard, and he wasn't a true point guard.

So we didn’t play a traditional lineup? Here’s the lineup when Scooter was playing. At times scooter played the 2 guard and the 3, and at times this team went big with Barron, Massey, and Kelly wise. Cal didn’t play small ball ALL of the time like we are doing now…

2001-02 Memphis Tigers Roster

Arthur Barclay SO F 6-8
Earl Barron JR C 7-0
Antonio Burks SO G 6-1
Modibo Diarra SO C 6-10
Duane Erwin FR F 6-9
Chris Massie JR C 6-8
Scooter McFadgon SO G 6-5
Anthony Rice FR G 6-4
Nathaniel Root JR G 5-11
Dajuan Wagner FR G 6-2
Kelly Wise SR FR F 6-10

At 6-6 and physical John Grice was a 4. He was shorter than Carney but he could bang and rebound plus shoot the 3 ball. We also had Barron & Massey too. We didn’t play two 6-1 guards and a 6-4 at the same time all of the time…

2002-03 Memphis Tigers Roster

Earl Barron SR C 7-0
Antonio Burks JR G 6-1
Patrick Byrne FR
Rodney Carney FR F 6-7
Modibo Diarra JR C 6-10
Duane Erwin SO F 6-9
Garrick Green FR
John Grice SR F 6-6
Jeremy Hunt FR G 6-5
Chris Massie SR C 6-8 16.7
Brian Mitchell FR
Anthony Rice SO G 6-4
Billy Richmond SO G 6-5
Nathaniel Root SR G 5-11
Almamy Thiero FR F 6-10
Clyde Wade FR G 6-0

And I don’t even see how you can say Sean Banks at 6-8 and Shawne Williams at 6-9 were not true 4’s. They were.

Kelly Wise played the 3 for us? He played a few minutes sparingly at the top of the zone, but Massie, Barron and Wise were never on the floor at the same time.

Who were the other 3's on the roster besides Scooter? What is a Massey? In every case I ran the minutes for you buddy; it's simple math.

You flail like kids on an X-Box. You don’t really know anything about real bball other than playing games and posting stats, which most Americans don’t have time for these days.

Knock yourself out kid. Drama queens these days are a dime-a-dozen.

(02-13-2014 11:46 AM)CUSA_NEWS Wrote:  Receivng and exchanging (they have little to exchange anyways) facts is not the wolf pack's objective.

Derailing discussions is their mastery...then its on to the next one.....

Know what you're right. He’s btiger on steroids.

Top Troll.

(02-13-2014 02:57 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  You flail like kids on an X-Box. You don’t really know anything about real bball other than playing games and posting stats, which most Americans don’t have time for these days.

Knock yourself out kid. Drama queens these days are a dime-a-dozen.

If Scooter was playing the 2 and the 3...who were the other 3's on this roster?

Memphis 2002
Arthur Barclay SO F 6-8
Earl Barron JR C 7-0
Antonio Burks SO G 6-1
Modibo Diarra SO C 6-10
Duane Erwin FR F 6-9
Chris Massie JR C 6-8
Scooter McFadgon SO G 6-5
Anthony Rice FR G 6-4
Nathaniel Root JR G 5-11
Dajuan Wagner FR G 6-2
Kelly Wise SR FR F 6-10

To summarize your position...

- King doesn't do anything that well at the 3 but we should play him there
- Kelly Wise was a small forward on the 2002 team
- Sean Banks was a pure power forward
- Shawne Williams was a pure power forward
- Scooter was a small forward
- Tarik Black was a superstar and Pastner screwed him up. Bill Self will make him a superstar at Kansas

Shawn wasn't a "true" 4 in the vein of a Karl Malone, but was more like a Dirk, unless somehow he isn't "really" a 4? Heck, he is a PF with the Lakers right now.

Shawne was a legit 6'9 with a tremendous wingspan. Plus, the team was already "big" with a true center in Dorsey. (While NBA short, he was big and super strong for college). Then a 6'7 Carney on the wing and a 6'6 Anderson at 2. And 6'2 DW at the point. That is a college team that goes 6'2, 6'6, 6'7, 6'9 and 6'8 with 6'7, 6'9 and 6'11 off the bench.

Huge for a college team.

Banks was a great fit for a college PF. Again had the height (6'8) and tremendous wingspan and wasn't afraid to mix it up.


As for the Scooter stuff. Wagner and Burks ate up the majority of minutes at the 1 and 2, so by default, Scooter was at the three, along with Rice. The 4/5 were set with Erwin, Barron, Wise, Dbo, Barclay and Massey. Wise didn't play anything but the 4/5, but Scooter was a prototypical college swingman at 6'5.

I don't see why that is a bad thing. You go 6'1, 6'2' 6'5, 6'10 and 7'0. Pretty reasonable.

It's just a balance thing, if you have big guards, you can sacrifice some height elsewhere, if you have true 4/5's you can give a little up in the backcourt. It appeared this year would have been the year, but with the recurring injury issue with Pellom and the reluctance/inability to get Woodson consistent minutes things are still where they are.


Unfortunately, with the reuturn of Shaq, Austin and Woodson, Memphis still lacks that one extra 4/5 to be able to keep them in rotation. Next year will be interesting with "Swingman U." Iverson, Damien, King, Burrell, Avery Woodson among others.

(02-13-2014 04:26 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  Shawn wasn't a "true" 4 in the vein of a Karl Malone, but was more like a Dirk, unless somehow he isn't "really" a 4? Heck, he is a PF with the Lakers right now.

Shawne was a legit 6'9 with a tremendous wingspan. Plus, the team was already "big" with a true center in Dorsey. (While NBA short, he was big and super strong for college). Then a 6'7 Carney on the wing and a 6'6 Anderson at 2. And 6'2 DW at the point. That is a college team that goes 6'2, 6'6, 6'7, 6'9 and 6'8 with 6'7, 6'9 and 6'11 off the bench.

Huge for a college team.

Banks was a great fit for a college PF. Again had the height (6'8) and tremendous wingspan and wasn't afraid to mix it up.

As for the Scooter stuff. Wagner and Burks ate up the majority of minutes at the 1 and 2, so by default, Scooter was at the three, along with Rice. The 4/5 were set with Erwin, Barron, Wise, Dbo, Barclay and Massey. Wise didn't play anything but the 4/5, but Scooter was a prototypical college swingman at 6'5.

I don't see why that is a bad thing. You go 6'1, 6'2' 6'5, 6'10 and 7'0. Pretty reasonable.

It's just a balance thing, if you have big guards, you can sacrifice some height elsewhere, if you have true 4/5's you can give a little up in the backcourt. It appeared this year would have been the year, but with the recurring injury issue with Pellom and the reluctance/inability to get Woodson consistent minutes things are still where they are.

Hopefully, with the return of Shaq, AN and Woodson

Unfortunately, with the reuturn of Shaq, Austin and Woodson, Memphis still lacks that one extra 4/5 to be able to keep them in rotation. Next year will be interesting with "Swingman U." Iverson, Damien, King, Burrell, Avery Woodson among others.

My point was that during many of the Cal years, we played players out of position. Chatman, Scooter, Grice, Shawne and Banks are all examples of that.

On Rivals, Shawne is listed as a 6'9 shooting guard.

Shawne Williams Rivals

Shawne played the 4 because we had Carney and CDR at the 3, and only Dorsey and Dozier as viable options at the 4/5. Shawne played there out of necessity; not because he was a 4.

On Rivals, Sean Banks is listed as a 6'8 small forward.

Sean Banks Rivals

Our frontline in 2004 was Erwin, Lopez, Barclay and Diarra. The 4 of them averaged a combined 11.4 points per game. Banks played there out of necessity; not because he was a 4.

If Banks and Shawne were on this year's team; Banks would barely see a second at the 4. If Banks was on the 2008 or 2009 teams, he wouldn't have seen a second at the 4, and Shawne wouldn't have had much time there either.

Banks is nowhere near a 4; Shawne is a stretch 4 like Ebanks, Terence Jones, Beasley, etc.

I agree with you about next year. Hopefully, Woodson and Nichols will continue to progress, and we will only need a combined 5-10 minutes per game from your quintet. I would love to see Woodson play 28 minutes per game, and have Shaq spend most of his at the 4.

(02-13-2014 04:49 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(02-13-2014 04:26 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  Shawn wasn't a "true" 4 in the vein of a Karl Malone, but was more like a Dirk, unless somehow he isn't "really" a 4? Heck, he is a PF with the Lakers right now.

Shawne was a legit 6'9 with a tremendous wingspan. Plus, the team was already "big" with a true center in Dorsey. (While NBA short, he was big and super strong for college). Then a 6'7 Carney on the wing and a 6'6 Anderson at 2. And 6'2 DW at the point. That is a college team that goes 6'2, 6'6, 6'7, 6'9 and 6'8 with 6'7, 6'9 and 6'11 off the bench.

Huge for a college team.

Banks was a great fit for a college PF. Again had the height (6'8) and tremendous wingspan and wasn't afraid to mix it up.

As for the Scooter stuff. Wagner and Burks ate up the majority of minutes at the 1 and 2, so by default, Scooter was at the three, along with Rice. The 4/5 were set with Erwin, Barron, Wise, Dbo, Barclay and Massey. Wise didn't play anything but the 4/5, but Scooter was a prototypical college swingman at 6'5.

I don't see why that is a bad thing. You go 6'1, 6'2' 6'5, 6'10 and 7'0. Pretty reasonable.

It's just a balance thing, if you have big guards, you can sacrifice some height elsewhere, if you have true 4/5's you can give a little up in the backcourt. It appeared this year would have been the year, but with the recurring injury issue with Pellom and the reluctance/inability to get Woodson consistent minutes things are still where they are.

Hopefully, with the return of Shaq, AN and Woodson

Unfortunately, with the reuturn of Shaq, Austin and Woodson, Memphis still lacks that one extra 4/5 to be able to keep them in rotation. Next year will be interesting with "Swingman U." Iverson, Damien, King, Burrell, Avery Woodson among others.

My point was that during many of the Cal years, we played players out of position. Chatman, Scooter, Grice, Shawne and Banks are all examples of that.

On Rivals, Shawne is listed as a 6'9 shooting guard.

Shawne Williams Rivals

Shawne played the 4 because we had Carney and CDR at the 3, and only Dorsey and Dozier as viable options at the 4/5. Shawne played there out of necessity; not because he was a 4.

On Rivals, Sean Banks is listed as a 6'8 small forward.

Sean Banks Rivals

Our frontline in 2004 was Erwin, Lopez, Barclay and Diarra. The 4 of them averaged a combined 11.4 points per game. Banks played there out of necessity; not because he was a 4.

If Banks and Shawne were on this year's team; Banks would barely see a second at the 4. If Banks was on the 2008 or 2009 teams, he wouldn't have seen a second at the 4, and Shawne wouldn't have had much time there either.

Banks is nowhere near a 4; Shawne is a stretch 4 like Ebanks, Terence Jones, Beasley, etc.

I agree with you about next year. Hopefully, Woodson and Nichols will continue to progress, and we will only need a combined 5-10 minutes per game from your quintet. I would love to see Woodson play 28 minutes per game, and have Shaq spend most of his at the 4.

This is all spot on. Not sure how anyone could argue with this post.

This is just where we disagree as to form. Obviously, if Shawn is playing PF in the NBA, he was certainly qualified to play PF in college.

Banks was very much a PF (strech as you refer, but PF nonetheless). college wise. He still played PF for the limited time he was here in 4-5.

The difference is that guys (esp in college) like Shawne and Sean have natural abilities at the 4--height and length. Like guys like T. Jones, Kevin Jones, Da'Sean Butler, Ebanks and Laquinton Ross. Not your prototypical NBA Zbo/Millsap 4.

But whatever, the reason, too that those guys would play 3 here is that Memphis doesn't really have a true (experienced) three. I guess Geron (only 6'3) would fit that bill (size wise) but he really isn't a guy (as a 3) who can stretch a defense or is good at beating guys off the dribble.

Which goes back to my original point, if you are gonna fudge at the four, you need to make it up in the backcourt. Memphis, though, doesn't with tiny guys like Dixon and Joe.

No big, both you have good points, a lot just depends on how one wants to characterize someone.