Here's a scenario. We dropped Austin Peay (301) for RPI purposes in favor of an NAIA school. With the OVC's non-conference percentage being below .500 (35%) did we cost the league RPI points or help? Would the benefit of one extra win have benefitted us as a whole that much particularly given that Austin Peay's opponents records are so poor?

The RPI isn't calculated in aggregate number of points accumulated. It's done based on percentages, so all things else being equal it doesn't matter if our record is 20-10 or 18-9 our RPI is virtually going to be the same. What changes the paradigm is did you schedule a Division II school to unload a bad team in a bad conference or did you avoid a good team in a good conference. The net loss is in the latter not the former it seems. In fact, you benefitted in the former by dropping a bad team out of a bad conference that doesn't penalize the conference for perpetuity. Or does that one extra win make up for it?

(01-31-2014 03:44 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Taking a quick look at the A10 they don't have many games against teams from bottom third leagues. So, while they may be manipulating the RPI they aren't exactly scheduling a ton of SWAC and MEAC schools meaning they are winning games against decent competition. Seems like there is a happy balance somewhere between playing winnable games but doing so against teams from legitimatley competitive conferences.

The A-10 is where they are because they are a damn fine basketball conference and have been for some time.

Like you said, the common theme I see with their teams is a few marquee OOC games but mostly beatable opponents in the 75-150 range. Great scheduling.

Let's remember scheduling isn't necessarily optional. They aren't scheduling a ton of SWAC teams because they don't need to. They can get decent opponents to play them because they are respected programs that draw well. Teams will come to UMass or Dayton. They can get invited to upper level tournaments. Most C-USA programs do not have that option. We aren't playing NAIA teams because we want to. We are playing them because we can't get good to average OOC opponents and that is a better option than playing a 200+ team.

(01-31-2014 03:59 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:44 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Taking a quick look at the A10 they don't have many games against teams from bottom third leagues. So, while they may be manipulating the RPI they aren't exactly scheduling a ton of SWAC and MEAC schools meaning they are winning games against decent competition. Seems like there is a happy balance somewhere between playing winnable games but doing so against teams from legitimatley competitive conferences.

Do you think teams in the top half of CUSA could realistically schedule middle tier teams from the A10? I think we could. Hell, I'd love to see an A10/CUSA challenge. I think there are some interesting and even a few historical matchups we could make happen. Doubt the A10 would be interested though unless we become a top 10 conference.

I don't see any reason why teams in CUSA couldn't sign home and homes with teams from the A10, MVC, Horizon, MAC, Colonial and even some of the AAC schools.

Me either. Even the SEC is sometimes available. UAB has played home and homes with Georgia, Arkansas, and LSU in recent years. We've also had Kent State from the MAC, Creighton from what was the MVC, and VCU from what was the A-10. The games can happen, we all just need to work on getting multiple games like this each year. Hell, Belmont is a decent game that's pretty close to about half of our conference.

(01-31-2014 04:01 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:44 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Taking a quick look at the A10 they don't have many games against teams from bottom third leagues. So, while they may be manipulating the RPI they aren't exactly scheduling a ton of SWAC and MEAC schools meaning they are winning games against decent competition. Seems like there is a happy balance somewhere between playing winnable games but doing so against teams from legitimatley competitive conferences.

The A-10 is where they are because they are a damn fine basketball conference and have been for some time.

Like you said, the common theme I see with their teams is a few marquee OOC games but mostly beatable opponents in the 75-150 range. Great scheduling.

Let's remember scheduling isn't necessarily optional. They aren't scheduling a ton of SWAC teams because they don't need to. They can get decent opponents to play them because they are respected programs that draw well. Teams will come to UMass or Dayton. They can get invited to upper level tournaments. Most C-USA programs do not have that option. We aren't playing NAIA teams because we want to. We are playing them because we can't get good to average OOC opponents and that is a better option than playing a 200+ team.

Except it is really not.

Not playing a game or two would be better than playing a non-DI team.

Like I said, you aren't required to play 30 games a season in regular season play.

I think Charlotte only has 29 regular season games this year. We couldn't fill the final spot, so we just left it open.

(01-31-2014 03:56 PM)blazers9911 Wrote:  ODU played a horrendous schedule? Might want to check that out again.

Correction: In ODU's case, they scheduled several horrendous teams to pick up a respectable win total.

So, for next year we drop #127 (9-11) Tulsa, #223 (7-10) ECU, #237 Tulane and add #115 (13-7) WKU. The conference is currently 14th and might finish as high as 13th. It sure would be nice to close in on Top 10 next season.

(01-31-2014 04:10 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:01 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:44 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Taking a quick look at the A10 they don't have many games against teams from bottom third leagues. So, while they may be manipulating the RPI they aren't exactly scheduling a ton of SWAC and MEAC schools meaning they are winning games against decent competition. Seems like there is a happy balance somewhere between playing winnable games but doing so against teams from legitimatley competitive conferences.

The A-10 is where they are because they are a damn fine basketball conference and have been for some time.

Like you said, the common theme I see with their teams is a few marquee OOC games but mostly beatable opponents in the 75-150 range. Great scheduling.

Let's remember scheduling isn't necessarily optional. They aren't scheduling a ton of SWAC teams because they don't need to. They can get decent opponents to play them because they are respected programs that draw well. Teams will come to UMass or Dayton. They can get invited to upper level tournaments. Most C-USA programs do not have that option. We aren't playing NAIA teams because we want to. We are playing them because we can't get good to average OOC opponents and that is a better option than playing a 200+ team.

Not playing a game or two would be better than playing a non-DI team.

In what regard? 0 can't be greater or less than 0.

(01-31-2014 03:59 PM)Niner National Wrote:  I don't see any reason why teams in CUSA couldn't sign home and homes with teams from the A10, MVC, Horizon, MAC, Colonial and even some of the AAC schools.

If St. Bona's can schedule solid home and home matchups, then everyone in CUSA should be able to.

(01-31-2014 04:20 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:10 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:01 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:44 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Taking a quick look at the A10 they don't have many games against teams from bottom third leagues. So, while they may be manipulating the RPI they aren't exactly scheduling a ton of SWAC and MEAC schools meaning they are winning games against decent competition. Seems like there is a happy balance somewhere between playing winnable games but doing so against teams from legitimatley competitive conferences.

The A-10 is where they are because they are a damn fine basketball conference and have been for some time.

Like you said, the common theme I see with their teams is a few marquee OOC games but mostly beatable opponents in the 75-150 range. Great scheduling.

Let's remember scheduling isn't necessarily optional. They aren't scheduling a ton of SWAC teams because they don't need to. They can get decent opponents to play them because they are respected programs that draw well. Teams will come to UMass or Dayton. They can get invited to upper level tournaments. Most C-USA programs do not have that option. We aren't playing NAIA teams because we want to. We are playing them because we can't get good to average OOC opponents and that is a better option than playing a 200+ team.

Not playing a game or two would be better than playing a non-DI team.

In what regard? 0 can't be greater or less than 0.

Just for perception. Schools serious about their basketball program's perception don't play DII or NAIA programs in the regular season.

(01-31-2014 04:22 PM)wh49er Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:59 PM)Niner National Wrote:  I don't see any reason why teams in CUSA couldn't sign home and homes with teams from the A10, MVC, Horizon, MAC, Colonial and even some of the AAC schools.

If St. Bona's can schedule solid home and home matchups, then everyone in CUSA should be able to.

One problem.. every school in the north east is pretty much in driving distance or a quick charter hop to one another.

Look around our southern schools... Do you really see any "great" schools that close to each of us that aren't arrogant SOB's that will agree to play us? (again, ask La Tech... if you can believe them when they say they were turned down by EVERY sec school)

(01-31-2014 04:12 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:56 PM)blazers9911 Wrote:  ODU played a horrendous schedule? Might want to check that out again.

Correction: In ODU's case, they scheduled several horrendous teams to pick up a respectable win total.

ODU won 5 games last season. ODU's non-conference SOS was 150 which is right where it should be in a rebuilding season. Honestly, you could argue that was a little too competitive if we were just trying to pile up victories.

The problem is CUSA should have more teams with NCSS under 100. This year it had 1 (Tulsa). Teams who have NCAA tournament expectations should try and schedule within the top 100 in NCSS.

The A10 and American, conferences that will likely get 4ish teams each in the Tournament, all had 4+ teams around the 100 or better mark in NCSS.

(01-31-2014 04:26 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:20 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:10 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:01 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:44 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  Taking a quick look at the A10 they don't have many games against teams from bottom third leagues. So, while they may be manipulating the RPI they aren't exactly scheduling a ton of SWAC and MEAC schools meaning they are winning games against decent competition. Seems like there is a happy balance somewhere between playing winnable games but doing so against teams from legitimatley competitive conferences.

The A-10 is where they are because they are a damn fine basketball conference and have been for some time.

Like you said, the common theme I see with their teams is a few marquee OOC games but mostly beatable opponents in the 75-150 range. Great scheduling.

Let's remember scheduling isn't necessarily optional. They aren't scheduling a ton of SWAC teams because they don't need to. They can get decent opponents to play them because they are respected programs that draw well. Teams will come to UMass or Dayton. They can get invited to upper level tournaments. Most C-USA programs do not have that option. We aren't playing NAIA teams because we want to. We are playing them because we can't get good to average OOC opponents and that is a better option than playing a 200+ team.

Not playing a game or two would be better than playing a non-DI team.

In what regard? 0 can't be greater or less than 0.

Just for perception. Schools serious about their basketball program's perception don't play DII or NAIA programs in the regular season.

-Meant strictly in regard to RPI.

-You can worry about your perception. I'll concern myself more with whether or not my team is putting itself in the best position possible to make the NCAA Tourney.

(01-31-2014 04:12 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:56 PM)blazers9911 Wrote:  ODU played a horrendous schedule? Might want to check that out again.

Correction: In ODU's case, they scheduled several horrendous teams to pick up a respectable win total.

That's not really accurate. Our SOS is 143 and includes seven Top 100 teams. We had a couple of patsies on the schedule...some due to preseason tourneys and some due to a dip in traditional rivals (i.e. George Mason) that we always play. But overall, we always try to play a tough schedule. Our philosophy is that it helps your RPI and prepares you for conference play. I'm especially impressed by the SOS given the miserable year we had last year, and the corresponding low expectations for this year.

Looking back at it, 9 of our 10 wins have come against +200 teams, so that hasn't been great. But overall, our schedule was pretty good this year. Heck, 4 of the 9 wins against +200 teams were in conference. Yikes!

(01-31-2014 04:39 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:26 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:20 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:10 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:01 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  The A-10 is where they are because they are a damn fine basketball conference and have been for some time.

Like you said, the common theme I see with their teams is a few marquee OOC games but mostly beatable opponents in the 75-150 range. Great scheduling.

Let's remember scheduling isn't necessarily optional. They aren't scheduling a ton of SWAC teams because they don't need to. They can get decent opponents to play them because they are respected programs that draw well. Teams will come to UMass or Dayton. They can get invited to upper level tournaments. Most C-USA programs do not have that option. We aren't playing NAIA teams because we want to. We are playing them because we can't get good to average OOC opponents and that is a better option than playing a 200+ team.

Not playing a game or two would be better than playing a non-DI team.

In what regard? 0 can't be greater or less than 0.

Just for perception. Schools serious about their basketball program's perception don't play DII or NAIA programs in the regular season.

-Meant strictly in regard to RPI.

-You can worry about your perception. I'll concern myself more with whether or not my team is putting itself in the best position possible to make the NCAA Tourney.

And playing Non-D1 schools doesn't help with that at all. Period. There is nothing to debate about that. It doesn't help, but it hurts your perception, which is you're on the bubble and it comes down to you and another school, could keep you out.

(01-31-2014 04:31 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:22 PM)wh49er Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:59 PM)Niner National Wrote:  I don't see any reason why teams in CUSA couldn't sign home and homes with teams from the A10, MVC, Horizon, MAC, Colonial and even some of the AAC schools.

If St. Bona's can schedule solid home and home matchups, then everyone in CUSA should be able to.

One problem.. every school in the north east is pretty much in driving distance or a quick charter hop to one another.

Look around our southern schools... Do you really see any "great" schools that close to each of us that aren't arrogant SOB's that will agree to play us? (again, ask La Tech... if you can believe them when they say they were turned down by EVERY sec school)

to your point....what does the eye test reveal relative to the media and poll perception?

and people wonder why we don't recruit missippy.......

(01-31-2014 04:32 PM)monarchoptimist Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:12 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 03:56 PM)blazers9911 Wrote:  ODU played a horrendous schedule? Might want to check that out again.

Correction: In ODU's case, they scheduled several horrendous teams to pick up a respectable win total.

ODU won 5 games last season. ODU's non-conference SOS was 150 which is right where it should be in a rebuilding season. Honestly, you could argue that was a little too competitive if we were just trying to pile up victories.

The problem is CUSA should have more teams with NCSS under 100. This year it had 1 (Tulsa). Teams who have NCAA tournament expectations should try and schedule within the top 100 in NCSS.

The A10 and American, conferences that will likely get 4ish teams each in the Tournament, all had 4+ teams around the 100 or better mark in NCSS.

I'm not trashing ODU for that. I completely understand why you put those teams on the schedule. In fact, I was saying that it is helping us.

I don't think you (or the Charlotte fan) understand the enormous difference between scheduling on the East Coast and scheduling in the Deep South. SEC teams just won't play us home and home--and if they do, it is incredibly rare. Even Ole Miss wouldn't play us home and home....we had to do 2 neutral sites, 2 in Oxford, 1 in Hattiesburg. Outside of the SEC teams, there are no strong conferences near us. The Sun Belt may occasionally have a decent team or two but that is rare.

(01-31-2014 04:58 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:39 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:26 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:20 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 04:10 PM)Niner National Wrote:  Not playing a game or two would be better than playing a non-DI team.

In what regard? 0 can't be greater or less than 0.

Just for perception. Schools serious about their basketball program's perception don't play DII or NAIA programs in the regular season.

-Meant strictly in regard to RPI.

-You can worry about your perception. I'll concern myself more with whether or not my team is putting itself in the best position possible to make the NCAA Tourney.

And playing Non-D1 schools doesn't help with that at all. Period. There is nothing to debate about that. It doesn't help, but it hurts your perception, which is you're on the bubble and it comes down to you and another school, could keep you out.

and it doesn't hurt.....ooc fair scheduling isn't fair geographically.....

(01-31-2014 01:40 PM)wh49er Wrote:  This what happens when you aren't allowed to schedule non-D1 games:

http://www.rpiforecast.com/confs/A10.html


It takes time but the league gets better as a whole.

Just to counterpoint your argument, playing non-DI teams can also lead to this:

MWC 2012-2013

8 of 9 MWC teams played at least one non-DI game last season with most playing multiple games. New Mexico is the only team that played just D-I teams.

(01-31-2014 05:39 PM)istrahan Wrote:  

(01-31-2014 01:40 PM)wh49er Wrote:  This what happens when you aren't allowed to schedule non-D1 games:

http://www.rpiforecast.com/confs/A10.html


It takes time but the league gets better as a whole.

Just to counterpoint your argument, playing non-DI teams can also lead to this:

MWC 2012-2013

8 of 9 MWC teams played at least one non-DI game last season with most playing multiple games. New Mexico is the only team that played just D-I teams.

Precisely! Thank you. The issue is not whether you play a DII team or not. The RPI is affected MORE by the DI opponents that you are playing and what leagues they are in.

I get accused of not knowing how the RPI works, because I suggest DII games don't hurt whereas the opposite is true. I actually have just a different perspective on this with using different methodology. It's not just as simple as scheduling wins. If we all schedule 300 RPI teams and go 9-1 in non conference we're still not going to have a great RPI. And in some instances I have proven where playing a DII team instead of someone like Prebyterian actually helps).

In my opinion, there is no simple fix to this issue, but if I were king for a day I would start by trying this.

Rule #1: No more than one non-DI game per year (only to address concerns about perception and legitimacy of conference since it has little effect on RPI).
Rule #2: Using a rolling three year average, do not schedule any opponents that have RPI averages over 300 during that three year period.
Rule #3: Using a rolling three year average no more than one game can be schedule against a team that is in a conference that has been ranked between 20 and 32 (i.e. last) over the past three seasons. This reduces games against conferences that will itself have sub-500 records.

This gives each program at least two cupcake games per season for the coaches but limits the damage to individual and league RPI by decreasing the number of bad opponents from bad conferences. The bottom line though is you still have to win games and this offers a great deal of flexibility to schedule accordingly based on how strong you expect your team to be.