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JRsec Offline
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If There Is A Breakaway
If there is a breakaway then everything we have thought about realignment to date essentially changes.

1. GOR's were drawn up for the television rights to NCAA football games. They would need to be reworded and signed for the television rights to the new entity that would be formed. Departures from the conferences under GOR's would be to a new entity and not in direct competition with the former conference as it would be within the closed set of NCAA schools. The whole legal dynamic would shift and need to be rethought.

2. Contracts would all have to be renewed and a new value would have to be calculated. Why? Content! Without all of the run of the mill FCS and lower end FBS schools to schedule (schools which would not be in the new entity) the content value for all contracts would go up.

3. Structure: In a new league with freedom to construct divisions, internal playoffs for the respective conferences, and the right to determine the length of the regular season the total value of the television rights might well exceed what they currently are. Especially valuable to the networks would be their ability to help to shape the new structure in ways that would increase cross regional interest and boost advertising.

4. Conferences would or could be rearranged from the beginning. In other words realignment could take place simply to augment the playoff structure. The number of teams participating would be governed by entrance criteria: Total athletic investment, size of attendance, facilities, number of sports offered, athletic endowment size, ability to participate in full cost of attendance scholarships for all athletes, etc.

Once the number of full participants are known the division of conferences could be handled quite easily. Four conferences of between 16 to 18 schools would be likely in such an event. Inequities for the PAC could be handled easily and after the Big 10, SEC, and PAC have established their 16 or 18 teams a new conference could be formed by holding out some top schools and building around them.

5. If all of the P5 schools were not unanimous in their desire to breakaway the pressure created by the main three conferences doing so would compel the remainder to make a move.

6. There is no reason the G5 could not join us in such a move. We could share basketball, baseball, and minor sports and still have separate playoffs for football championships. If basketball only schools made the break the could fall into the G5 structure and still compete with the upper tier without affecting television contracts for the upper tier.

In a breakaway world I would think the networks would want to try to balance the 4 conferences without disturbing the present members of the SEC, Big 10, and PAC. The Big 10's interest in the states of North Carolina and Virginia and the SEC's shared interest in both as well shouldn't pose a problem for balancing competition. The football in those two states is average at best. The SEC and Big 10 would be enhanced in markets and in hoops. In such a scenario I could see several combinations that could arise but the most profitable would be Virginia and Duke to the Big 10 and North Carolina and Virginia Tech to the SEC or Virginia Tech and Duke to the Big 10 and Virginia and North Carolina to the SEC.

I think a new conference could be formed for athletic balance using some kind of arrangement like this:

Boston College, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Syracuse,

Louisville, N.C. State, Wake Forest, West Virginia

Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Miami

Baylor, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech

The PAC might look like this:

Iowa State, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas

Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Utah

California, Cal Los Angeles, Southern California, Stanford

Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State

But no matter how you configure it the structure would be balanced with the desire being to create a natural flow from division champ to conference champ to national champion.

So how would you lay out, configure, or balance an upper tier where we were free of NCAA constraints and conference legal entanglements?
01-26-2014 01:26 AM
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CintiFan Offline
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RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-26-2014 01:26 AM)JRsec Wrote:  If there is a breakaway then everything we have thought about realignment to date essentially changes.

1. GOR's were drawn up for the television rights to NCAA football games. They would need to be reworded and signed for the television rights to the new entity that would be formed. Departures from the conferences under GOR's would be to a new entity and not in direct competition with the former conference as it would be within the closed set of NCAA schools. The whole legal dynamic would shift and need to be rethought.

2. Contracts would all have to be renewed and a new value would have to be calculated. Why? Content! Without all of the run of the mill FCS and lower end FBS schools to schedule (schools which would not be in the new entity) the content value for all contracts would go up.

3. Structure: In a new league with freedom to construct divisions, internal playoffs for the respective conferences, and the right to determine the length of the regular season the total value of the television rights might well exceed what they currently are. Especially valuable to the networks would be their ability to help to shape the new structure in ways that would increase cross regional interest and boost advertising.

4. Conferences would or could be rearranged from the beginning. In other words realignment could take place simply to augment the playoff structure. The number of teams participating would be governed by entrance criteria: Total athletic investment, size of attendance, facilities, number of sports offered, athletic endowment size, ability to participate in full cost of attendance scholarships for all athletes, etc.

Once the number of full participants are known the division of conferences could be handled quite easily. Four conferences of between 16 to 18 schools would be likely in such an event. Inequities for the PAC could be handled easily and after the Big 10, SEC, and PAC have established their 16 or 18 teams a new conference could be formed by holding out some top schools and building around them.

5. If all of the P5 schools were not unanimous in their desire to breakaway the pressure created by the main three conferences doing so would compel the remainder to make a move.

6. There is no reason the G5 could not join us in such a move. We could share basketball, baseball, and minor sports and still have separate playoffs for football championships. If basketball only schools made the break the could fall into the G5 structure and still compete with the upper tier without affecting television contracts for the upper tier.

In a breakaway world I would think the networks would want to try to balance the 4 conferences without disturbing the present members of the SEC, Big 10, and PAC. The Big 10's interest in the states of North Carolina and Virginia and the SEC's shared interest in both as well shouldn't pose a problem for balancing competition. The football in those two states is average at best. The SEC and Big 10 would be enhanced in markets and in hoops. In such a scenario I could see several combinations that could arise but the most profitable would be Virginia and Duke to the Big 10 and North Carolina and Virginia Tech to the SEC or Virginia Tech and Duke to the Big 10 and Virginia and North Carolina to the SEC.

I think a new conference could be formed for athletic balance using some kind of arrangement like this:

Boston College, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Syracuse,

Louisville, N.C. State, Wake Forest, West Virginia

Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Miami

Baylor, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech

The PAC might look like this:

Iowa State, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas

Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Utah

California, Cal Los Angeles, Southern California, Stanford

Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State

But no matter how you configure it the structure would be balanced with the desire being to create a natural flow from division champ to conference champ to national champion.

So how would you lay out, configure, or balance an upper tier where we were free of NCAA constraints and conference legal entanglements?

I don't think a breakaway, if it happens, has an immediate impact on realignment. The GORs are contracts between the conferences and their member institutions. Likewise, the media deals are contracts between the conferences and ESPN/Fox. I don't think the NCAA is a party to either the GORs or the media deals, so they would remain in place, as is, even if a breakaway occurred.

On the flip side, I think the NCAA does have the media deal for March Madness and, without the top conferences, the NCAA's media deal could crash unless the breakaway conferences agree to continue to play in the NCAA's tournament. Maybe the P5 create their own March Madness tournament instead and invite a few NCAA teams to it.

From my perspective, even if a breakaway occurs, almost all of the obstacles to realignment stay in place. The GORs are still there, the media deals the conferences signed are still in place, ND will still want to be independent, Texas will still want to be king of its own conference and UNC and its friends will still want to have an ACC conference in place.

That could change, depending on what new rules the breakaway group agrees on. If stipends for athletes, minimum athletic budgets, minimum number of sports or other such requirements make it too expensive for for smaller, less well financed schools to participate, then some individual schools will decide to downgrade their athletic programs and join lower tier conferences. I assume the P5 will waive the GORs for schools that want to join lesser conferences. That may spur some additional realignment at the edges (such as UConn or Cinncinnati replacing a departing Wake Forest, for example) but not the fundamental realignment you envision.
01-26-2014 02:55 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #3
RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-26-2014 02:55 AM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(01-26-2014 01:26 AM)JRsec Wrote:  If there is a breakaway then everything we have thought about realignment to date essentially changes.

1. GOR's were drawn up for the television rights to NCAA football games. They would need to be reworded and signed for the television rights to the new entity that would be formed. Departures from the conferences under GOR's would be to a new entity and not in direct competition with the former conference as it would be within the closed set of NCAA schools. The whole legal dynamic would shift and need to be rethought.

2. Contracts would all have to be renewed and a new value would have to be calculated. Why? Content! Without all of the run of the mill FCS and lower end FBS schools to schedule (schools which would not be in the new entity) the content value for all contracts would go up.

3. Structure: In a new league with freedom to construct divisions, internal playoffs for the respective conferences, and the right to determine the length of the regular season the total value of the television rights might well exceed what they currently are. Especially valuable to the networks would be their ability to help to shape the new structure in ways that would increase cross regional interest and boost advertising.

4. Conferences would or could be rearranged from the beginning. In other words realignment could take place simply to augment the playoff structure. The number of teams participating would be governed by entrance criteria: Total athletic investment, size of attendance, facilities, number of sports offered, athletic endowment size, ability to participate in full cost of attendance scholarships for all athletes, etc.

Once the number of full participants are known the division of conferences could be handled quite easily. Four conferences of between 16 to 18 schools would be likely in such an event. Inequities for the PAC could be handled easily and after the Big 10, SEC, and PAC have established their 16 or 18 teams a new conference could be formed by holding out some top schools and building around them.

5. If all of the P5 schools were not unanimous in their desire to breakaway the pressure created by the main three conferences doing so would compel the remainder to make a move.

6. There is no reason the G5 could not join us in such a move. We could share basketball, baseball, and minor sports and still have separate playoffs for football championships. If basketball only schools made the break the could fall into the G5 structure and still compete with the upper tier without affecting television contracts for the upper tier.

In a breakaway world I would think the networks would want to try to balance the 4 conferences without disturbing the present members of the SEC, Big 10, and PAC. The Big 10's interest in the states of North Carolina and Virginia and the SEC's shared interest in both as well shouldn't pose a problem for balancing competition. The football in those two states is average at best. The SEC and Big 10 would be enhanced in markets and in hoops. In such a scenario I could see several combinations that could arise but the most profitable would be Virginia and Duke to the Big 10 and North Carolina and Virginia Tech to the SEC or Virginia Tech and Duke to the Big 10 and Virginia and North Carolina to the SEC.

I think a new conference could be formed for athletic balance using some kind of arrangement like this:

Boston College, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Syracuse,

Louisville, N.C. State, Wake Forest, West Virginia

Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Miami

Baylor, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech

The PAC might look like this:

Iowa State, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas

Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Utah

California, Cal Los Angeles, Southern California, Stanford

Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State

But no matter how you configure it the structure would be balanced with the desire being to create a natural flow from division champ to conference champ to national champion.

So how would you lay out, configure, or balance an upper tier where we were free of NCAA constraints and conference legal entanglements?

I don't think a breakaway, if it happens, has an immediate impact on realignment. The GORs are contracts between the conferences and their member institutions. Likewise, the media deals are contracts between the conferences and ESPN/Fox. I don't think the NCAA is a party to either the GORs or the media deals, so they would remain in place, as is, even if a breakaway occurred.

On the flip side, I think the NCAA does have the media deal for March Madness and, without the top conferences, the NCAA's media deal could crash unless the breakaway conferences agree to continue to play in the NCAA's tournament. Maybe the P5 create their own March Madness tournament instead and invite a few NCAA teams to it.

From my perspective, even if a breakaway occurs, almost all of the obstacles to realignment stay in place. The GORs are still there, the media deals the conferences signed are still in place, ND will still want to be independent, Texas will still want to be king of its own conference and UNC and its friends will still want to have an ACC conference in place.

That could change, depending on what new rules the breakaway group agrees on. If stipends for athletes, minimum athletic budgets, minimum number of sports or other such requirements make it too expensive for for smaller, less well financed schools to participate, then some individual schools will decide to downgrade their athletic programs and join lower tier conferences. I assume the P5 will waive the GORs for schools that want to join lesser conferences. That may spur some additional realignment at the edges (such as UConn or Cinncinnati replacing a departing Wake Forest, for example) but not the fundamental realignment you envision.

Rebranding and slight shifts in conference affiliations could still create a contractual and GOR issue. But let's assume those do remain in place. Structural changes are all that would be necessary to drive realignment. Also if contracts move, inequities in them move as well. In a closed system that provides less remedy for those inequities. Those same key schools you speak of already feel the shackles of that inequity and feel trapped in their conferences. Texas is well aware of its golden cage that the LHN has placed them in. Oklahoma knows that the lack of peer institutions is harming its program. North Carolina, Duke, Virginia and N.C. State may desire to rebuild their kingdom, but schools like Florida State, Clemson, and Georgia Tech may have other desires and without football chops the value of the present ACC melts away. Even their traditional basketball powers are weakening. I think you may see three or four conferences make the breakaway, establish their new parameters in a new structure and then absorb the rest of the qualifying schools within that new structure. If there is a breakaway I think you will be looking at only a P4.

In the event that something like this occurs it will still take only 8 departing Big 12 schools to dissolve the GOR (should it remain intact) and the conference and it will still take 12 schools to dissolve the GOR (should it remain intact) and the conference for the ACC. Either way it gets done.

I do think there are a handful of schools beyond the present P5 that could make the jump and that the final structural setup will depend on that number minus any departures due to the qualifications. But should there be 4 or 5 departures that could work against them as well. I don't think the new league would want to open Pandora's box up to independence. Notre Dame would have a choice to make. It wouldn't be the NCAA and their politics would not be as likely to save them this time around. It has only been the desperation of the weakest conferences that has permitted their unique situation (outside of the service academies) to exist. B.Y.U. took advantage of the precedent set by Notre Dame so I don't really count them.

And one more point, if there is a breakaway and 5 schools choose for instance to remain in the NCAA from the ACC, the networks will want out of their contracts with the ACC and will not be hankering to enforce them. I'd like to see what chances they would have of enforcing their GOR under those circumstances. At that point the GOR would become a restraint of trade issue. No if any significant portion of an existing conference makes a breakaway the pressure will be on those who remain behind, not on those moving. If the research triangle crowd desires to remain intact then they need to be among the first to agree to breakaway so that they do get to keep their conference, if indeed that is what they desire to do. Sometimes all that is really needed for change is a good excuse and I would say that a breakaway would provide one.
(This post was last modified: 01-26-2014 07:18 AM by JRsec.)
01-26-2014 07:08 AM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #4
RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-26-2014 07:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2014 02:55 AM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(01-26-2014 01:26 AM)JRsec Wrote:  If there is a breakaway then everything we have thought about realignment to date essentially changes.

1. GOR's were drawn up for the television rights to NCAA football games. They would need to be reworded and signed for the television rights to the new entity that would be formed. Departures from the conferences under GOR's would be to a new entity and not in direct competition with the former conference as it would be within the closed set of NCAA schools. The whole legal dynamic would shift and need to be rethought.

2. Contracts would all have to be renewed and a new value would have to be calculated. Why? Content! Without all of the run of the mill FCS and lower end FBS schools to schedule (schools which would not be in the new entity) the content value for all contracts would go up.

3. Structure: In a new league with freedom to construct divisions, internal playoffs for the respective conferences, and the right to determine the length of the regular season the total value of the television rights might well exceed what they currently are. Especially valuable to the networks would be their ability to help to shape the new structure in ways that would increase cross regional interest and boost advertising.

4. Conferences would or could be rearranged from the beginning. In other words realignment could take place simply to augment the playoff structure. The number of teams participating would be governed by entrance criteria: Total athletic investment, size of attendance, facilities, number of sports offered, athletic endowment size, ability to participate in full cost of attendance scholarships for all athletes, etc.

Once the number of full participants are known the division of conferences could be handled quite easily. Four conferences of between 16 to 18 schools would be likely in such an event. Inequities for the PAC could be handled easily and after the Big 10, SEC, and PAC have established their 16 or 18 teams a new conference could be formed by holding out some top schools and building around them.

5. If all of the P5 schools were not unanimous in their desire to breakaway the pressure created by the main three conferences doing so would compel the remainder to make a move.

6. There is no reason the G5 could not join us in such a move. We could share basketball, baseball, and minor sports and still have separate playoffs for football championships. If basketball only schools made the break the could fall into the G5 structure and still compete with the upper tier without affecting television contracts for the upper tier.

In a breakaway world I would think the networks would want to try to balance the 4 conferences without disturbing the present members of the SEC, Big 10, and PAC. The Big 10's interest in the states of North Carolina and Virginia and the SEC's shared interest in both as well shouldn't pose a problem for balancing competition. The football in those two states is average at best. The SEC and Big 10 would be enhanced in markets and in hoops. In such a scenario I could see several combinations that could arise but the most profitable would be Virginia and Duke to the Big 10 and North Carolina and Virginia Tech to the SEC or Virginia Tech and Duke to the Big 10 and Virginia and North Carolina to the SEC.

I think a new conference could be formed for athletic balance using some kind of arrangement like this:

Boston College, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Syracuse,

Louisville, N.C. State, Wake Forest, West Virginia

Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Miami

Baylor, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech

The PAC might look like this:

Iowa State, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas

Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Utah

California, Cal Los Angeles, Southern California, Stanford

Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State

But no matter how you configure it the structure would be balanced with the desire being to create a natural flow from division champ to conference champ to national champion.

So how would you lay out, configure, or balance an upper tier where we were free of NCAA constraints and conference legal entanglements?

I don't think a breakaway, if it happens, has an immediate impact on realignment. The GORs are contracts between the conferences and their member institutions. Likewise, the media deals are contracts between the conferences and ESPN/Fox. I don't think the NCAA is a party to either the GORs or the media deals, so they would remain in place, as is, even if a breakaway occurred.

On the flip side, I think the NCAA does have the media deal for March Madness and, without the top conferences, the NCAA's media deal could crash unless the breakaway conferences agree to continue to play in the NCAA's tournament. Maybe the P5 create their own March Madness tournament instead and invite a few NCAA teams to it.

From my perspective, even if a breakaway occurs, almost all of the obstacles to realignment stay in place. The GORs are still there, the media deals the conferences signed are still in place, ND will still want to be independent, Texas will still want to be king of its own conference and UNC and its friends will still want to have an ACC conference in place.

That could change, depending on what new rules the breakaway group agrees on. If stipends for athletes, minimum athletic budgets, minimum number of sports or other such requirements make it too expensive for for smaller, less well financed schools to participate, then some individual schools will decide to downgrade their athletic programs and join lower tier conferences. I assume the P5 will waive the GORs for schools that want to join lesser conferences. That may spur some additional realignment at the edges (such as UConn or Cinncinnati replacing a departing Wake Forest, for example) but not the fundamental realignment you envision.

Rebranding and slight shifts in conference affiliations could still create a contractual and GOR issue. But let's assume those do remain in place. Structural changes are all that would be necessary to drive realignment. Also if contracts move, inequities in them move as well. In a closed system that provides less remedy for those inequities. Those same key schools you speak of already feel the shackles of that inequity and feel trapped in their conferences. Texas is well aware of its golden cage that the LHN has placed them in. Oklahoma knows that the lack of peer institutions is harming its program. North Carolina, Duke, Virginia and N.C. State may desire to rebuild their kingdom, but schools like Florida State, Clemson, and Georgia Tech may have other desires and without football chops the value of the present ACC melts away. Even their traditional basketball powers are weakening. I think you may see three or four conferences make the breakaway, establish their new parameters in a new structure and then absorb the rest of the qualifying schools within that new structure. If there is a breakaway I think you will be looking at only a P4.

In the event that something like this occurs it will still take only 8 departing Big 12 schools to dissolve the GOR (should it remain intact) and the conference and it will still take 12 schools to dissolve the GOR (should it remain intact) and the conference for the ACC. Either way it gets done.

I do think there are a handful of schools beyond the present P5 that could make the jump and that the final structural setup will depend on that number minus any departures due to the qualifications. But should there be 4 or 5 departures that could work against them as well. I don't think the new league would want to open Pandora's box up to independence. Notre Dame would have a choice to make. It wouldn't be the NCAA and their politics would not be as likely to save them this time around. It has only been the desperation of the weakest conferences that has permitted their unique situation (outside of the service academies) to exist. B.Y.U. took advantage of the precedent set by Notre Dame so I don't really count them.

And one more point, if there is a breakaway and 5 schools choose for instance to remain in the NCAA from the ACC, the networks will want out of their contracts with the ACC and will not be hankering to enforce them. I'd like to see what chances they would have of enforcing their GOR under those circumstances. At that point the GOR would become a restraint of trade issue. No if any significant portion of an existing conference makes a breakaway the pressure will be on those who remain behind, not on those moving. If the research triangle crowd desires to remain intact then they need to be among the first to agree to breakaway so that they do get to keep their conference, if indeed that is what they desire to do. Sometimes all that is really needed for change is a good excuse and I would say that a breakaway would provide one.

I agree that the Achilles heel of the GORs is that they essentially terminate if the media deals terminate. We don't know what rights ESPN/Fox, or for that matter the conferences themselves, have to terminate the media agreements. It's certainly possible that minor changes in conference makeup might give the networks the right to terminate, but it seems to me more likely that the networks would want to keep the agreements in place but reach some accommodation with the conferences. Instead of a right to terminate, the contracts may simply allow for a predetermined adjustment to the price if one or more minor schools leave and are not replaced with a comparable school. No one that signs a major contract wants to see it terminated, or be renegotiated, unless they really have to. A vote to dissolve a conference, though, would almost certainly give the networks a right to terminate and they would exercise it.

I also agree that that Texas, ND, UNC or some of the other top schools may decide within the next few years that they would be better off joining the PAC, SEC or B1G. I just don't see any conference challenging a GOR and expending the time and money needed to challenge it. If they win, they potentially invalidate their own GOR, so whay do it? Its ironic that the GORs that Texas and UNC orchestrated to get in place, which were designed to keep other schools from bolting their conference, would ultimately prevent them from doing what they wanted. Sweet justice, I think.
01-27-2014 01:10 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #5
RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-27-2014 01:10 AM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(01-26-2014 07:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-26-2014 02:55 AM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(01-26-2014 01:26 AM)JRsec Wrote:  If there is a breakaway then everything we have thought about realignment to date essentially changes.

1. GOR's were drawn up for the television rights to NCAA football games. They would need to be reworded and signed for the television rights to the new entity that would be formed. Departures from the conferences under GOR's would be to a new entity and not in direct competition with the former conference as it would be within the closed set of NCAA schools. The whole legal dynamic would shift and need to be rethought.

2. Contracts would all have to be renewed and a new value would have to be calculated. Why? Content! Without all of the run of the mill FCS and lower end FBS schools to schedule (schools which would not be in the new entity) the content value for all contracts would go up.

3. Structure: In a new league with freedom to construct divisions, internal playoffs for the respective conferences, and the right to determine the length of the regular season the total value of the television rights might well exceed what they currently are. Especially valuable to the networks would be their ability to help to shape the new structure in ways that would increase cross regional interest and boost advertising.

4. Conferences would or could be rearranged from the beginning. In other words realignment could take place simply to augment the playoff structure. The number of teams participating would be governed by entrance criteria: Total athletic investment, size of attendance, facilities, number of sports offered, athletic endowment size, ability to participate in full cost of attendance scholarships for all athletes, etc.

Once the number of full participants are known the division of conferences could be handled quite easily. Four conferences of between 16 to 18 schools would be likely in such an event. Inequities for the PAC could be handled easily and after the Big 10, SEC, and PAC have established their 16 or 18 teams a new conference could be formed by holding out some top schools and building around them.

5. If all of the P5 schools were not unanimous in their desire to breakaway the pressure created by the main three conferences doing so would compel the remainder to make a move.

6. There is no reason the G5 could not join us in such a move. We could share basketball, baseball, and minor sports and still have separate playoffs for football championships. If basketball only schools made the break the could fall into the G5 structure and still compete with the upper tier without affecting television contracts for the upper tier.

In a breakaway world I would think the networks would want to try to balance the 4 conferences without disturbing the present members of the SEC, Big 10, and PAC. The Big 10's interest in the states of North Carolina and Virginia and the SEC's shared interest in both as well shouldn't pose a problem for balancing competition. The football in those two states is average at best. The SEC and Big 10 would be enhanced in markets and in hoops. In such a scenario I could see several combinations that could arise but the most profitable would be Virginia and Duke to the Big 10 and North Carolina and Virginia Tech to the SEC or Virginia Tech and Duke to the Big 10 and Virginia and North Carolina to the SEC.

I think a new conference could be formed for athletic balance using some kind of arrangement like this:

Boston College, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Syracuse,

Louisville, N.C. State, Wake Forest, West Virginia

Clemson, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Miami

Baylor, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech

The PAC might look like this:

Iowa State, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas

Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, Utah

California, Cal Los Angeles, Southern California, Stanford

Oregon, Oregon State, Washington, Washington State

But no matter how you configure it the structure would be balanced with the desire being to create a natural flow from division champ to conference champ to national champion.

So how would you lay out, configure, or balance an upper tier where we were free of NCAA constraints and conference legal entanglements?

I don't think a breakaway, if it happens, has an immediate impact on realignment. The GORs are contracts between the conferences and their member institutions. Likewise, the media deals are contracts between the conferences and ESPN/Fox. I don't think the NCAA is a party to either the GORs or the media deals, so they would remain in place, as is, even if a breakaway occurred.

On the flip side, I think the NCAA does have the media deal for March Madness and, without the top conferences, the NCAA's media deal could crash unless the breakaway conferences agree to continue to play in the NCAA's tournament. Maybe the P5 create their own March Madness tournament instead and invite a few NCAA teams to it.

From my perspective, even if a breakaway occurs, almost all of the obstacles to realignment stay in place. The GORs are still there, the media deals the conferences signed are still in place, ND will still want to be independent, Texas will still want to be king of its own conference and UNC and its friends will still want to have an ACC conference in place.

That could change, depending on what new rules the breakaway group agrees on. If stipends for athletes, minimum athletic budgets, minimum number of sports or other such requirements make it too expensive for for smaller, less well financed schools to participate, then some individual schools will decide to downgrade their athletic programs and join lower tier conferences. I assume the P5 will waive the GORs for schools that want to join lesser conferences. That may spur some additional realignment at the edges (such as UConn or Cinncinnati replacing a departing Wake Forest, for example) but not the fundamental realignment you envision.

Rebranding and slight shifts in conference affiliations could still create a contractual and GOR issue. But let's assume those do remain in place. Structural changes are all that would be necessary to drive realignment. Also if contracts move, inequities in them move as well. In a closed system that provides less remedy for those inequities. Those same key schools you speak of already feel the shackles of that inequity and feel trapped in their conferences. Texas is well aware of its golden cage that the LHN has placed them in. Oklahoma knows that the lack of peer institutions is harming its program. North Carolina, Duke, Virginia and N.C. State may desire to rebuild their kingdom, but schools like Florida State, Clemson, and Georgia Tech may have other desires and without football chops the value of the present ACC melts away. Even their traditional basketball powers are weakening. I think you may see three or four conferences make the breakaway, establish their new parameters in a new structure and then absorb the rest of the qualifying schools within that new structure. If there is a breakaway I think you will be looking at only a P4.

In the event that something like this occurs it will still take only 8 departing Big 12 schools to dissolve the GOR (should it remain intact) and the conference and it will still take 12 schools to dissolve the GOR (should it remain intact) and the conference for the ACC. Either way it gets done.

I do think there are a handful of schools beyond the present P5 that could make the jump and that the final structural setup will depend on that number minus any departures due to the qualifications. But should there be 4 or 5 departures that could work against them as well. I don't think the new league would want to open Pandora's box up to independence. Notre Dame would have a choice to make. It wouldn't be the NCAA and their politics would not be as likely to save them this time around. It has only been the desperation of the weakest conferences that has permitted their unique situation (outside of the service academies) to exist. B.Y.U. took advantage of the precedent set by Notre Dame so I don't really count them.

And one more point, if there is a breakaway and 5 schools choose for instance to remain in the NCAA from the ACC, the networks will want out of their contracts with the ACC and will not be hankering to enforce them. I'd like to see what chances they would have of enforcing their GOR under those circumstances. At that point the GOR would become a restraint of trade issue. No if any significant portion of an existing conference makes a breakaway the pressure will be on those who remain behind, not on those moving. If the research triangle crowd desires to remain intact then they need to be among the first to agree to breakaway so that they do get to keep their conference, if indeed that is what they desire to do. Sometimes all that is really needed for change is a good excuse and I would say that a breakaway would provide one.

I agree that the Achilles heel of the GORs is that they essentially terminate if the media deals terminate. We don't know what rights ESPN/Fox, or for that matter the conferences themselves, have to terminate the media agreements. It's certainly possible that minor changes in conference makeup might give the networks the right to terminate, but it seems to me more likely that the networks would want to keep the agreements in place but reach some accommodation with the conferences. Instead of a right to terminate, the contracts may simply allow for a predetermined adjustment to the price if one or more minor schools leave and are not replaced with a comparable school. No one that signs a major contract wants to see it terminated, or be renegotiated, unless they really have to. A vote to dissolve a conference, though, would almost certainly give the networks a right to terminate and they would exercise it.

I also agree that that Texas, ND, UNC or some of the other top schools may decide within the next few years that they would be better off joining the PAC, SEC or B1G. I just don't see any conference challenging a GOR and expending the time and money needed to challenge it. If they win, they potentially invalidate their own GOR, so whay do it? Its ironic that the GORs that Texas and UNC orchestrated to get in place, which were designed to keep other schools from bolting their conference, would ultimately prevent them from doing what they wanted. Sweet justice, I think.

From the perspective you lay out everything you say is true. Now try it from the network's perspective. I believe the GOR's went into place because first ESPN was afraid that Texas (after the LHN kept them from moving to the PAC) might be forced out of the contract if Oklahoma, Kansas, OSU, or WVU bolted. So ESPN desires the GOR to make sure that their adversaries in FOX couldn't figure out a way to get Texas into the Big 10 and out of the LHN by virtue of extraneous market circumstances outside of Texas's control. Maryland gets snatched as a product and throws the ACC into a tizzy and properties from Virginia to Florida State appear quite vulnerable. Essentially the same GOR goes into effect for the ACC.

Kudos to Fox. They successfully initiated two attacks on the corporate mouse within half a year, both resulting in a purely defensive posture for ESPN. What did it accomplish? Bargaining power and some concessions eventually to some property rights in the Southeast by ESPN. FOX wanted into the most lucrative region of the country for college football, a region that save for 1 slither owned by CBS was in ESPN control. Does anybody really think that Jim Delany was interested in seeing his conference map lose consolidation to have one thin leg extending down the Eastern Seaboard? I don't. I think Delany would have been very happy entering into North Carolina and Virginia and consolidating a Northeast block for the Big 10. Those rumors and that ruse were about convincing ESPN that they could be vulnerable. It was about leverage.

You suggested that it might be possible to lose minor components within a conference and for the network to make adjustments. I agree. By holding both the ACC and SEC properties ESPN was in a position to maximize both, but not by moving major pieces, but by moving minor ones. Connecticut, and properties of value from the Big 12 were in position to be moved accordingly by simply providing the space to do so.

I've had my doubts about the availability of Virginia Tech to the SEC because they are a mid range football value to the ACC. I have not had such doubts about N.C. State. The ACC footprint can optimize the SEC by losing 1 of its 4 North Carolina schools. That could be accomplished by swapping a private for a private (Vanderbilt for Wake Forest) but neither one really delivers a state. But if the ACC agreed to move N.C. State they could pick up West Virginia and Connecticut to move to 16 full members and essentially solidify and repair the broken footprint left by Maryland's departure. The SEC would then be free to add Oklahoma and Texas could take the indy deal with the ACC. FOX moves Kansas to the Big 10 and pays for them to take Iowa State (with ESPN's help). All of the three media controlled conferences have their 16. If the PAC desires to expand they have Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech and T.C.U./Baylor to do it with. All five are better prospects than anyone else in their geographical region. And the four they select places their product in a new time zone thereby permitting them to sell more content.

FOX and ESPN can work the Texas angle any way they choose. If the PAC agrees to sell a portion of their network to either FOX, ESPN, or both Texas could move west with three of the other schools and the deal gets done. Texas could even enter into the SEC solution under the right circumstances. Kansas and Vanderbilt to the Big 10, Texas, Oklahoma and N.C. State to the SEC. If N.C. State refuses, then Texas, Oklahoma and West Virginia to the SEC. My point all along is that once the GOR's were signed any ability of a conference to broker its own deal went right out the window. The GOR's have permitted the networks to have direct consultation on all moves without seemingly being guilty of tortuous interference. Their media rights are at stake now so of course they will be at the table. Anything decided will be handled through the conferences, but the money necessary to make the moves will come from the networks to the conferences.

In essence the GOR's while originating as defensive moves on the part of ESPN to stall property movement in hostile takeover moves, now provides the instrument necessary for the networks in some form of cooperation, to sculpt the final stages of realignment. Now does this mean the end is near? I don't think so. Nothing happens until the PAC agrees to accept 4 of the Big 12 schools and that will take some time both to figure out who will be acceptable and to get the schools that may be involved on board. But some kind of maximizing of markets will be part of this process.

The reason I picked on N.C. State is that the ACC could lose them as a sports property, gain a new state, and only be stronger for their loss. And being in another athletic conference won't really affect their research projects with North Carolina, Duke and Wake, but it will permit all involved to make more money. That may not be the sentimental and historical perspective that will please all fans, but it is the business reality.

Anyway, I offered this as merely an example of the kinds of moves that could be made through the networks because of the GOR's and not inspite of them.
(This post was last modified: 01-27-2014 10:05 AM by JRsec.)
01-27-2014 09:55 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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RE: If There Is A Breakaway
If there is a breakaway I'll guarantee you we'll all be paying our players. That will have a considerable impact. I could see a situation where some of the smaller P5 schools would choose to stay in the NCAA than face that right now.
01-28-2014 09:13 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #7
RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-28-2014 09:13 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  If there is a breakaway I'll guarantee you we'll all be paying our players. That will have a considerable impact. I could see a situation where some of the smaller P5 schools would choose to stay in the NCAA than face that right now.

Three maybe four tops and there are teams ready to take their place right now. There's one in the ACC that has expressed a reasonable amount of reservations and two more there that have chimed in (Wake Forest; to a lesser extent Boston College and perhaps Pitt). I doubt that T.C.U. would join in on the mild protest of the stipend issue, but they and a couple of others might have some trouble with the establishment of a minimum number of required sports, facilities requirements and some of those kinds of things. West Virginia for instance would have to add three sports and upgrade facilities if they ever received an SEC bid. But there is only one that I would truly put into the doubtful category and that is Wake.
(This post was last modified: 01-28-2014 09:23 PM by JRsec.)
01-28-2014 09:16 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-28-2014 09:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-28-2014 09:13 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  If there is a breakaway I'll guarantee you we'll all be paying our players. That will have a considerable impact. I could see a situation where some of the smaller P5 schools would choose to stay in the NCAA than face that right now.

Three maybe four tops and there are teams ready to take their place right now. There's one in the ACC that has expressed a reasonable amount of reservations and two more there that have chimed in (Wake Forest; to a lesser extent Boston College and perhaps Pitt). I doubt that T.C.U. would join in on the mild protest of the stipend issue, but they and a couple of others might have some trouble with the establishment of a minimum number of required sports, facilities requirements and some of those kinds of things. West Virginia for instance would have to add three sports and upgrade facilities if they ever received an SEC bid. But there is only one that I would truly put into the doubtful category and that is Wake.

I honestly think that a breakaway is going to effectively cut the bottom 20% of the P5.

The breakaway will be the watershed moment where all of these schools are going to have to finally ask the big questions. I don't think some are prepared to answer that question like the big boys. I'd hope that even the big boys would do a double take.

Regardless, a breakaway will change the face of college athletics forever. Change isn't always good.
01-28-2014 09:32 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #9
RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-28-2014 09:32 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(01-28-2014 09:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-28-2014 09:13 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  If there is a breakaway I'll guarantee you we'll all be paying our players. That will have a considerable impact. I could see a situation where some of the smaller P5 schools would choose to stay in the NCAA than face that right now.

Three maybe four tops and there are teams ready to take their place right now. There's one in the ACC that has expressed a reasonable amount of reservations and two more there that have chimed in (Wake Forest; to a lesser extent Boston College and perhaps Pitt). I doubt that T.C.U. would join in on the mild protest of the stipend issue, but they and a couple of others might have some trouble with the establishment of a minimum number of required sports, facilities requirements and some of those kinds of things. West Virginia for instance would have to add three sports and upgrade facilities if they ever received an SEC bid. But there is only one that I would truly put into the doubtful category and that is Wake.

I honestly think that a breakaway is going to effectively cut the bottom 20% of the P5.

The breakaway will be the watershed moment where all of these schools are going to have to finally ask the big questions. I don't think some are prepared to answer that question like the big boys. I'd hope that even the big boys would do a double take.

Regardless, a breakaway will change the face of college athletics forever. Change isn't always good.

Corporate direction of college football is an unfortunate fait accompli. What will happen is that minor sports will be cut in equal proportions (male and female) and gradually we will enter pursuing only those things with which revenue may be generated. Corporate sponsorship of minor sports will step in to save the day and will be a write off for support of the IOC within the U.S. There is not one school in the SEC which is not prepared to make the jump. The NCAA is broken beyond human and immediate repair. It has been a waste for some great time now, an endless stream of misapplication of justice and broken promises while it became for itself a cash cow rat holing 70 million a year which should have gone to the schools. Its endowment is now built to over 700 million from the extra profits of the NCAA tournament. In the old vernacular of my day it's time for the nut cutting.
(This post was last modified: 02-03-2014 11:54 AM by JRsec.)
01-28-2014 09:57 PM
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Post: #10
RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-28-2014 09:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Corporate direction of college football is an unfortunate fait accompli. What will happen is that minor sports will be cut in equal proportions (male and female) and gradually we will enter pursuing only those things with which revenue may be generated. Corporate sponsorship of minor sports will step in to save the day and will be a write off for support of the IOC within the U.S. There is not one school in the SEC which is not prepared to make the jump. The NCAA is broken beyond human and immediate repair. It has been a waste for some great time now, an endless stream of misapplication of justice and broken promises while it became for itself a cash cow rat holing 70 million a year which should have gone to the schools. It's endowment is now built to over 700 million from the extra profits of the NCAA tournament. In the old vernacular of my day it's time for the nut cutting.

Great post. Sums up perfectly how I feel about the NCAA.
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2014 12:35 PM by JRsec.)
01-29-2014 02:06 AM
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Post: #11
RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-26-2014 01:26 AM)JRsec Wrote:  If there is a breakaway then everything we have thought about realignment to date essentially changes.
...

But no matter how you configure it the structure would be balanced with the desire being to create a natural flow from division champ to conference champ to national champion.

So how would you lay out, configure, or balance an upper tier where we were free of NCAA constraints and conference legal entanglements?

Really the easiest way to do this is to leave UNC, Duke, VT, and Virginia in the ACC. If you take the State of Virginia and UNC/Duke you will have taken too much value from the ACC even adding ND and 4 little brother schools from the B12. I think you have to part out the B12 due to its geography and move or toss a couple schools from the ACC and replace them to even things up financially. Four conferences of 16 schools. I would allow pods and basically have a 16 team playoff (conference semis and CCG included). Allow one rivalry protected game out of division or pod. I think this would keep the ACC and PAC in the financial ball park of the B1G and SEC.

SEC (Rank by strength: BB - 3 FB - 1)

North
Kentucky Wildcats
Missouri Tigers
Tennessee Volunteers
Vanderbilt Commodores

East
Florida Gators
Georgia Bulldogs
North Carolina State Wolfpack (ACC)
South Carolina Gamecocks

South
Alabama Crimson Tide
Auburn Tigers
Mississippi Rebels
Mississippi State Bulldogs

West
Arkansas Razorbacks
LSU Tigers
Oklahoma State Cowboys (B12)
Texas A&M Aggies

B1G (Rank by strength: BB - 2 FB - 3)

North
Michigan Wolverines
Michigan State Spartans
Northwestern Wildcats
Wisconsin Badgers

East
Connecticut Huskies (AAC)
Maryland Terrapins
Penn State Nittany Lions
Rutgers Scarlet Knights

South
Indiana Hoosiers
Illinois Fighting Illini
Ohio State Buckeyes
Purdue Boilermakers

West
Iowa Hawkeyes
Kansas Jayhawks (B12)
Nebraska Cornhuskers
Minnesota Golden Gophers

PAC (Rank by strength: BB - 4 FB - 2)

North
Oregon Ducks
Oregon State Beavers
Washington Huskies
Washington State Cougars

East
Kansas State Wildcats (B12)
Oklahoma Sooners (B12)
Texas Longhorns (B12)
Texas Tech Red Raiders (B12)

South
Arizona Wildcats
Arizona State Sun Devils
Colorado Buffaloes
Utah Utes

West
California Golden Bears
Stanford Cardinal
UCLA Bruins
USC Trojans

ACC - (Rank by strength: BB - 1 FB - 4)

North
Boston College Eagles
Notre Dame Fighting Irish
Pittsburgh Panthers
Syracuse Orange

East
Duke Blue Devils
North Carolina Tar Heels
Virginia Cavaliers
Virginia Tech Hokies

South
Clemson Tigers
Florida State Seminoles
Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets
Miami Hurricanes

West
Baylor Bears (B12)
Iowa State Cyclones (B12)
Louisville Cardinals
West Virginia Mountaineers (B12)

That would be my 64 team breakaway if trying to maintain some parity on the field and financially. First up if someone drops out because they do not want to compete financially: BYU, TCU, Cincinnati, and UCF.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2014 03:47 AM by jhawkmvp.)
01-29-2014 03:24 AM
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bigblueblindness Offline
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RE: If There Is A Breakaway
Not bad at all, jhawkmvp! To get it done, I think the Big 10 and SEC would take that set up. Like I said in a post on a different thread, Texas to the PAC is probably not going to happen, so what about swapping Texas and Iowa State?
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2014 12:32 PM by bigblueblindness.)
01-29-2014 11:13 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #13
RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-29-2014 03:24 AM)jhawkmvp Wrote:  
(01-26-2014 01:26 AM)JRsec Wrote:  If there is a breakaway then everything we have thought about realignment to date essentially changes.
...

But no matter how you configure it the structure would be balanced with the desire being to create a natural flow from division champ to conference champ to national champion.

So how would you lay out, configure, or balance an upper tier where we were free of NCAA constraints and conference legal entanglements?

Really the easiest way to do this is to leave UNC, Duke, VT, and Virginia in the ACC. If you take the State of Virginia and UNC/Duke you will have taken too much value from the ACC even adding ND and 4 little brother schools from the B12. I think you have to part out the B12 due to its geography and move or toss a couple schools from the ACC and replace them to even things up financially. Four conferences of 16 schools. I would allow pods and basically have a 16 team playoff (conference semis and CCG included). Allow one rivalry protected game out of division or pod. I think this would keep the ACC and PAC in the financial ball park of the B1G and SEC.

SEC (Rank by strength: BB - 3 FB - 1)

North
Kentucky Wildcats
Missouri Tigers
Tennessee Volunteers
Vanderbilt Commodores

East
Florida Gators
Georgia Bulldogs
North Carolina State Wolfpack (ACC)
South Carolina Gamecocks

South
Alabama Crimson Tide
Auburn Tigers
Mississippi Rebels
Mississippi State Bulldogs

West
Arkansas Razorbacks
LSU Tigers
Oklahoma State Cowboys (B12)
Texas A&M Aggies

B1G (Rank by strength: BB - 2 FB - 3)

North
Michigan Wolverines
Michigan State Spartans
Northwestern Wildcats
Wisconsin Badgers

East
Connecticut Huskies (AAC)
Maryland Terrapins
Penn State Nittany Lions
Rutgers Scarlet Knights

South
Indiana Hoosiers
Illinois Fighting Illini
Ohio State Buckeyes
Purdue Boilermakers

West
Iowa Hawkeyes
Kansas Jayhawks (B12)
Nebraska Cornhuskers
Minnesota Golden Gophers

PAC (Rank by strength: BB - 4 FB - 2)

North
Oregon Ducks
Oregon State Beavers
Washington Huskies
Washington State Cougars

East
Kansas State Wildcats (B12)
Oklahoma Sooners (B12)
Texas Longhorns (B12)
Texas Tech Red Raiders (B12)

South
Arizona Wildcats
Arizona State Sun Devils
Colorado Buffaloes
Utah Utes

West
California Golden Bears
Stanford Cardinal
UCLA Bruins
USC Trojans

ACC - (Rank by strength: BB - 1 FB - 4)

North
Boston College Eagles
Notre Dame Fighting Irish
Pittsburgh Panthers
Syracuse Orange

East
Duke Blue Devils
North Carolina Tar Heels
Virginia Cavaliers
Virginia Tech Hokies

South
Clemson Tigers
Florida State Seminoles
Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets
Miami Hurricanes

West
Baylor Bears (B12)
Iowa State Cyclones (B12)
Louisville Cardinals
West Virginia Mountaineers (B12)

That would be my 64 team breakaway if trying to maintain some parity on the field and financially. First up if someone drops out because they do not want to compete financially: BYU, TCU, Cincinnati, and UCF.

That's a logical layout for the SEC and Big 10, but it's the ACC that I would have questions about. I think they get their network and survive, but I think their network (to save overhead, save face, and save ownership of Texas) will be a morphed LHN. Therefore I look for the Sooners to move with the Horns and I don't think the ACC would agree to expand Westward for less. Iowa State is too disjointed geographically for them. Remember too that you have to account for network ownership claims on particular schools, and the lack thereof.

One reason the PAC has been unable to land a deal is because they own 100% of their product and lease it. There is no way that ESPN lets Texas go to the PAC where a change of lease by the PAC would cost them the right to broadcast the most profitable national brand in college football. If the PAC sells ESPN a goodly portion of their network then it becomes wholly a different matter. But, a Texas in the ACC would be the top property 100% owned by ESPN and therefore a coup for the network. Texas will likely insist upon one Texas school to move with them. Since Texas Tech and a totally secularized T.C.U. would be marketable to the PAC I look for that traveling companion to be Baylor. Miami in a pod with Texas, Oklahoma, and Baylor gives the Horns and Sooners direst access to the Sunshine state for recruiting which was after all the main impetus behind the push to get F.S.U. in the Big 12. So as you can see such a move would permit to Horns to play Aggie again in an ACC/SEC end of season rivalry game, keep the RRR intact, gain access to Florida recruiting, and claim that academics was the motivating factor in the move. By placing Miami in the pod with Texas that frees another Big 12 team to move closer to home, WVU. This move renews the rivalry with Pitt and builds a bridge around the Maryland defection to reconnect the ACC footprint.

To do this the ACC would have to let two schools go. Logic says they would be schools which duplicated footprint with another (see N.C. State and Virginia Tech). If something happens I think logically this would be the most profitable for all parties concerned.

As BBB knows there are other workarounds then available to the PAC and Big 10 that could come of this.
01-29-2014 11:36 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-28-2014 09:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-28-2014 09:32 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(01-28-2014 09:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-28-2014 09:13 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  If there is a breakaway I'll guarantee you we'll all be paying our players. That will have a considerable impact. I could see a situation where some of the smaller P5 schools would choose to stay in the NCAA than face that right now.

Three maybe four tops and there are teams ready to take their place right now. There's one in the ACC that has expressed a reasonable amount of reservations and two more there that have chimed in (Wake Forest; to a lesser extent Boston College and perhaps Pitt). I doubt that T.C.U. would join in on the mild protest of the stipend issue, but they and a couple of others might have some trouble with the establishment of a minimum number of required sports, facilities requirements and some of those kinds of things. West Virginia for instance would have to add three sports and upgrade facilities if they ever received an SEC bid. But there is only one that I would truly put into the doubtful category and that is Wake.

I honestly think that a breakaway is going to effectively cut the bottom 20% of the P5.

The breakaway will be the watershed moment where all of these schools are going to have to finally ask the big questions. I don't think some are prepared to answer that question like the big boys. I'd hope that even the big boys would do a double take.

Regardless, a breakaway will change the face of college athletics forever. Change isn't always good.

Corporate direction of college football is an unfortunate fait accompli. What will happen is that minor sports will be cut in equal proportions (male and female) and gradually we will enter pursuing only those things with which revenue may be generated. Corporate sponsorship of minor sports will step in to save the day and will be a write off for support of the IOC within the U.S. There is not one school in the SEC which is not prepared to make the jump. The NCAA is broken beyond human and immediate repair. It has been a waste for some great time now, an endless stream of misapplication of justice and broken promises while it became for itself a cash cow rat holing 70 million a year which should have gone to the schools. It's endowment is now built to over 700 million from the extra profits of the NCAA tournament. In the old vernacular of my day it's time for the nut cutting.

I'm down with cutting the NCAA's nuts but if I have to cut my own to do it I may reconsider. 04-cheers
02-01-2014 01:54 PM
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Post: #15
RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(02-01-2014 01:54 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(01-28-2014 09:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-28-2014 09:32 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(01-28-2014 09:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-28-2014 09:13 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  If there is a breakaway I'll guarantee you we'll all be paying our players. That will have a considerable impact. I could see a situation where some of the smaller P5 schools would choose to stay in the NCAA than face that right now.

Three maybe four tops and there are teams ready to take their place right now. There's one in the ACC that has expressed a reasonable amount of reservations and two more there that have chimed in (Wake Forest; to a lesser extent Boston College and perhaps Pitt). I doubt that T.C.U. would join in on the mild protest of the stipend issue, but they and a couple of others might have some trouble with the establishment of a minimum number of required sports, facilities requirements and some of those kinds of things. West Virginia for instance would have to add three sports and upgrade facilities if they ever received an SEC bid. But there is only one that I would truly put into the doubtful category and that is Wake.

I honestly think that a breakaway is going to effectively cut the bottom 20% of the P5.

The breakaway will be the watershed moment where all of these schools are going to have to finally ask the big questions. I don't think some are prepared to answer that question like the big boys. I'd hope that even the big boys would do a double take.

Regardless, a breakaway will change the face of college athletics forever. Change isn't always good.

Corporate direction of college football is an unfortunate fait accompli. What will happen is that minor sports will be cut in equal proportions (male and female) and gradually we will enter pursuing only those things with which revenue may be generated. Corporate sponsorship of minor sports will step in to save the day and will be a write off for support of the IOC within the U.S. There is not one school in the SEC which is not prepared to make the jump. The NCAA is broken beyond human and immediate repair. It has been a waste for some great time now, an endless stream of misapplication of justice and broken promises while it became for itself a cash cow rat holing 70 million a year which should have gone to the schools. It's endowment is now built to over 700 million from the extra profits of the NCAA tournament. In the old vernacular of my day it's time for the nut cutting.

I'm down with cutting the NCAA's nuts but if I have to cut my own to do it I may reconsider. 04-cheers

Well Spring will soon be here and it will be time to rend lard, make soap, put up the bacon and castrate the shoats, so we'll see. But as far as the NCAA is concerned that is one fat hog that if slaughtered could feed a lot of other programs and I'm not too worried that they possess any of the attributes necessary to cut us.
02-01-2014 02:00 PM
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jhawkmvp Offline
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RE: If There Is A Breakaway
This is if I was doing it now and keeping B1G, SEC, and PAC schools in place and trying to bring the PAC and ACC closer to the SEC/B1G financially and competitively. It will never play out like this though. The B1G and SEC will get the schools they want once their new media deals are in place, if they have patience, because the money they will be making will put them far ahead of the rest (maybe the PAC can keep up if their network gains more traction due to 100% ownership). They won't have to settle for any little brothers or weaker additions if they just wait a few years. The PAC and ACC/B12 (whichever survives) will most likely will have to feed on the remains.

I think the PAC would not expand without Texas unless forced. I think Texas only goes to the ACC with a ND deal in place or 4-6 other B12 schools, if they joined in full. OU/KU would not want the ACC as a 16 school conference IMO. I think they would go to the SEC or B1G (if AAU was not a problem) in that scenario. Really the ACC is a problem because they have so much deadweight at the bottom, are weak financially compared to the PAC/SEC/B1G (and B12 even), and are so much farther east than the SEC and B1G. A B12/ACC merger with 7-8 teams from each would work, but 2-3 schools just doesn't make much sense to me; but, losers can't be choosers. Those schools who don't get their first choice of conference will just be looking for a power conference life raft at the end of realignment. You could see more schools on islands as conferences who lost out on the best schools grab whatever schools of some value remain.
02-03-2014 12:17 AM
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jhawkmvp Offline
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RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(01-29-2014 11:13 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  Not bad at all, jhawkmvp! To get it done, I think the Big 10 and SEC would take that set up. Like I said in a post on a different thread, Texas to the PAC is probably not going to happen, so what about swapping Texas and Iowa State?

I think the PAC only expands with Texas in this scenario. Not enough schools of value west of the Mississippi without them to get to 16. I think the ACC as the weakest, by far, of the remaining conferences if the B12 fails and would be more willing to make a reach for schools on islands at that point if they got ND as a full member. They probably take the best of what remains available.

In reality though, I agree Texas to the ACC with a ND deal or the B12/ACC merging is more likely than UT going to the PAC. Deloss Dodds was on video saying that Texas will go east not west if the B12 fails. That means the PAC is probably not going to end up with Texas. I think the time zone issues really made Texas shy away from the PAC IMO
02-03-2014 12:25 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #18
RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(02-03-2014 12:17 AM)jhawkmvp Wrote:  This is if I was doing it now and keeping B1G, SEC, and PAC schools in place and trying to bring the PAC and ACC closer to the SEC/B1G financially and competitively. It will never play out like this though. The B1G and SEC will get the schools they want once their new media deals are in place, if they have patience, because the money they will be making will put them far ahead of the rest (maybe the PAC can keep up if their network gains more traction due to 100% ownership). They won't have to settle for any little brothers or weaker additions if they just wait a few years. The PAC and ACC/B12 (whichever survives) will most likely will have to feed on the remains.

I think the PAC would not expand without Texas unless forced. I think Texas only goes to the ACC with a ND deal in place or 4-6 other B12 schools, if they joined in full. OU/KU would not want the ACC as a 16 school conference IMO. I think they would go to the SEC or B1G (if AAU was not a problem) in that scenario. Really the ACC is a problem because they have so much deadweight at the bottom, are weak financially compared to the PAC/SEC/B1G (and B12 even), and are so much farther east than the SEC and B1G. A B12/ACC merger with 7-8 teams from each would work, but 2-3 schools just doesn't make much sense to me; but, losers can't be choosers. Those schools who don't get their first choice of conference will just be looking for a power conference life raft at the end of realignment. You could see more schools on islands as conferences who lost out on the best schools grab whatever schools of some value remain.

Have you seen my workaround on this yet. It would have Texas, Oklahoma, Baylor, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West Virginia moving to the ACC. That would radically improve the ACC's football standing, the LHN could morph profitably into the ACCN, the Horns would be placed in a 6 team Western Division consisting of all of the above except WVU and including Miami which has to fly everywhere anyway and is equal distance from the mid Atlantic as they would be to Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas. That would give the Sooners and Horns access to Florida and a marquee game.

The SEC would pick up Kansas and Oklahoma State. They would also pick up N.C. State and Virginia Tech with ESPN brokering the deal. That one move would solidify the ACC add 38 million viewers to their footprint, and given them a network and revenue in line with that of the Big 10 and SEC. The loss of the two schools mentioned takes nothing away from their footprint. The SEC picks up basketball help with three of the four (Virginia Tech basketball would fit right in with half of the SEC unfortunately). Both conferences would become very stable. T.C.U. and Texas Tech both top any other prospect for the PAC other than B.Y.U. so I think ultimately they find a home there. The two deliver a considerable portion of the North ans West Texas market and puts PAC teams into the Texas recruiting grounds directly. It just an idea, but ESPN is not going to give up on Texas and Kansas as property, and they would spend what it takes to buy out Oklahoma. The rest are really cheap properties to acquire. That's 8 schools enough to end it.
(This post was last modified: 02-03-2014 12:34 AM by JRsec.)
02-03-2014 12:33 AM
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RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(02-03-2014 12:33 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-03-2014 12:17 AM)jhawkmvp Wrote:  This is if I was doing it now and keeping B1G, SEC, and PAC schools in place and trying to bring the PAC and ACC closer to the SEC/B1G financially and competitively. It will never play out like this though. The B1G and SEC will get the schools they want once their new media deals are in place, if they have patience, because the money they will be making will put them far ahead of the rest (maybe the PAC can keep up if their network gains more traction due to 100% ownership). They won't have to settle for any little brothers or weaker additions if they just wait a few years. The PAC and ACC/B12 (whichever survives) will most likely will have to feed on the remains.

I think the PAC would not expand without Texas unless forced. I think Texas only goes to the ACC with a ND deal in place or 4-6 other B12 schools, if they joined in full. OU/KU would not want the ACC as a 16 school conference IMO. I think they would go to the SEC or B1G (if AAU was not a problem) in that scenario. Really the ACC is a problem because they have so much deadweight at the bottom, are weak financially compared to the PAC/SEC/B1G (and B12 even), and are so much farther east than the SEC and B1G. A B12/ACC merger with 7-8 teams from each would work, but 2-3 schools just doesn't make much sense to me; but, losers can't be choosers. Those schools who don't get their first choice of conference will just be looking for a power conference life raft at the end of realignment. You could see more schools on islands as conferences who lost out on the best schools grab whatever schools of some value remain.

Have you seen my workaround on this yet. It would have Texas, Oklahoma, Baylor, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West Virginia moving to the ACC. That would radically improve the ACC's football standing, the LHN could morph profitably into the ACCN, the Horns would be placed in a 6 team Western Division consisting of all of the above except WVU and including Miami which has to fly everywhere anyway and is equal distance from the mid Atlantic as they would be to Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas. That would give the Sooners and Horns access to Florida and a marquee game.

The SEC would pick up Kansas and Oklahoma State. They would also pick up N.C. State and Virginia Tech with ESPN brokering the deal. That one move would solidify the ACC add 38 million viewers to their footprint, and given them a network and revenue in line with that of the Big 10 and SEC. The loss of the two schools mentioned takes nothing away from their footprint. The SEC picks up basketball help with three of the four (Virginia Tech basketball would fit right in with half of the SEC unfortunately). Both conferences would become very stable. T.C.U. and Texas Tech both top any other prospect for the PAC other than B.Y.U. so I think ultimately they find a home there. The two deliver a considerable portion of the North ans West Texas market and puts PAC teams into the Texas recruiting grounds directly. It just an idea, but ESPN is not going to give up on Texas and Kansas as property, and they would spend what it takes to buy out Oklahoma. The rest are really cheap properties to acquire. That's 8 schools enough to end it.

It is plausible. I assume Texas/ESPN would be driving this. I agree the only way the ACC gets Texas as a full member is adding more B12 schools to help with travel and taking Baylor would go a long way as well. Baylor has huge influence politically in Texas. Much greater than their fan base size would suggest. If the PAC took TCU and TTU then Texas would have no political entanglements, from leaving schools behind, to such a move. I am assuming that the PAC would be less than thrilled with that scenario though TCU and TTU would give them a sizable presence in Texas. They would be the big loser and the B1G as well in this scenario since neither landed UT, OU, KU, UNC or UVA.

I think KU would be the wildcard. Their ESPN deal is short and not as lucrative as Texas (who is really tied down in T3 to ESPN for another 18 years or so). KU could buy it out if they wanted. They have flirted with the B1G for decades (like Missouri did though less openly). Would they give up the B1G for SEC. Tough question. I think they might if ESPN takes care of them financially, plus it would renew the MU rivalry as a conference rivalry which is really the only way I can see it working successfully (OOC is just too hard now days for FB and if KU and KSU separate that OOC rivalry will be KSU's due to politics). Kentucky would finally give them the blue blood basketball rival that they covet like UNC/Duke. The SEC would gain big-time in basketball, gain valuable content for their netowrk, and solidify the KC market so makes sense for the SEC that way. From a pure sports perspective the move to SEC is a no brainer (except football would be more competitive in the weaker B1G). Much would depend on what the SEC offered versus the B1G. KU has not really seen the SEC as a realistic option in the past. Would SEC money (with KU and the NC/VA markets added), rivalries and sports superiority trump the B1G academic prestige? That is the question.

OU would also be a wildcard. They really would prefer the SEC over the ACC, but if they could stay with Texas they might go to the ACC. The problem is that many OU fans and admins worry that OSU in the SEC might surpass OU someday down the road. OSU in the SEC is OU's worst nightmare. They worry a UT/A&M dynamic might happen. They post on their boards about it often. Another thing they seem to want is either staying in conference with UT or OSU because with the current conference slate it would be impossible to play both OOC. They need to stay in the same conference as at least one if they want to keep both on the schedule. Your proposal would allow them to continue playing both, since UT would be in the same conference, which is positive. FOX also will want to keep OU like ESPN wants to keep Texas and Kansas so that is another complication to be solved. I think FOX wants them in the B1G or PAC.

The rest of the B12 schools would love it as it would mean stability and a permanent home in a power conference.
(This post was last modified: 02-03-2014 01:31 AM by jhawkmvp.)
02-03-2014 01:23 AM
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RE: If There Is A Breakaway
(02-03-2014 01:23 AM)jhawkmvp Wrote:  
(02-03-2014 12:33 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-03-2014 12:17 AM)jhawkmvp Wrote:  This is if I was doing it now and keeping B1G, SEC, and PAC schools in place and trying to bring the PAC and ACC closer to the SEC/B1G financially and competitively. It will never play out like this though. The B1G and SEC will get the schools they want once their new media deals are in place, if they have patience, because the money they will be making will put them far ahead of the rest (maybe the PAC can keep up if their network gains more traction due to 100% ownership). They won't have to settle for any little brothers or weaker additions if they just wait a few years. The PAC and ACC/B12 (whichever survives) will most likely will have to feed on the remains.

I think the PAC would not expand without Texas unless forced. I think Texas only goes to the ACC with a ND deal in place or 4-6 other B12 schools, if they joined in full. OU/KU would not want the ACC as a 16 school conference IMO. I think they would go to the SEC or B1G (if AAU was not a problem) in that scenario. Really the ACC is a problem because they have so much deadweight at the bottom, are weak financially compared to the PAC/SEC/B1G (and B12 even), and are so much farther east than the SEC and B1G. A B12/ACC merger with 7-8 teams from each would work, but 2-3 schools just doesn't make much sense to me; but, losers can't be choosers. Those schools who don't get their first choice of conference will just be looking for a power conference life raft at the end of realignment. You could see more schools on islands as conferences who lost out on the best schools grab whatever schools of some value remain.

Have you seen my workaround on this yet. It would have Texas, Oklahoma, Baylor, Kansas State, Iowa State, and West Virginia moving to the ACC. That would radically improve the ACC's football standing, the LHN could morph profitably into the ACCN, the Horns would be placed in a 6 team Western Division consisting of all of the above except WVU and including Miami which has to fly everywhere anyway and is equal distance from the mid Atlantic as they would be to Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas. That would give the Sooners and Horns access to Florida and a marquee game.

The SEC would pick up Kansas and Oklahoma State. They would also pick up N.C. State and Virginia Tech with ESPN brokering the deal. That one move would solidify the ACC add 38 million viewers to their footprint, and given them a network and revenue in line with that of the Big 10 and SEC. The loss of the two schools mentioned takes nothing away from their footprint. The SEC picks up basketball help with three of the four (Virginia Tech basketball would fit right in with half of the SEC unfortunately). Both conferences would become very stable. T.C.U. and Texas Tech both top any other prospect for the PAC other than B.Y.U. so I think ultimately they find a home there. The two deliver a considerable portion of the North ans West Texas market and puts PAC teams into the Texas recruiting grounds directly. It just an idea, but ESPN is not going to give up on Texas and Kansas as property, and they would spend what it takes to buy out Oklahoma. The rest are really cheap properties to acquire. That's 8 schools enough to end it.

It is plausible. I assume Texas/ESPN would be driving this. I agree the only way the ACC gets Texas as a full member is adding more B12 schools to help with travel and taking Baylor would go a long way as well. Baylor has huge influence politically in Texas. Much greater than their fan base size would suggest. If the PAC took TCU and TTU then Texas would have no political entanglements, from leaving schools behind, to such a move. I am assuming that the PAC would be less than thrilled with that scenario though TCU and TTU would give them a sizable presence in Texas. They would be the big loser and the B1G as well in this scenario since neither landed UT, OU, KU, UNC or UVA.

I think KU would be the wildcard. Their ESPN deal is short and not as lucrative as Texas (who is really tied down in T3 to ESPN for another 18 years or so). KU could buy it out if they wanted. They have flirted with the B1G for decades (like Missouri did though less openly). Would they give up the B1G for SEC. Tough question. I think they might if ESPN takes care of them financially, plus it would renew the MU rivalry as a conference rivalry which is really the only way I can see it working successfully (OOC is just too hard now days for FB and if KU and KSU separate that OOC rivalry will be KSU's due to politics). Kentucky would finally give them the blue blood basketball rival that they covet like UNC/Duke. The SEC would gain big-time in basketball, gain valuable content for their netowrk, and solidify the KC market so makes sense for the SEC that way. From a pure sports perspective the move to SEC is a no brainer (except football would be more competitive in the weaker B1G). Much would depend on what the SEC offered versus the B1G. KU has not really seen the SEC as a realistic option in the past. Would SEC money (with KU and the NC/VA markets added), rivalries and sports superiority trump the B1G academic prestige? That is the question.

OU would also be a wildcard. They really would prefer the SEC over the ACC, but if they could stay with Texas they might go to the ACC. The problem is that many OU fans and admins worry that OSU in the SEC might surpass OU someday down the road. OSU in the SEC is OU's worst nightmare. They worry a UT/A&M dynamic might happen. They post on their boards about it often. Another thing they seem to want is either staying in conference with UT or OSU because with the current conference slate it would be impossible to play both OOC. They need to stay in the same conference as at least one if they want to keep both on the schedule. Your proposal would allow them to continue playing both, since UT would be in the same conference, which is positive. FOX also will want to keep OU like ESPN wants to keep Texas and Kansas so that is another complication to be solved. I think FOX wants them in the B1G or PAC.

The rest of the B12 schools would love it as it would mean stability and a permanent home in a power conference.

I figured that OU and UT would like only really having F.S.U. and Clemson to contend with. It's a lot easier than Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, L.S.U. and Tennessee won't be down for long now. I think all Kansas has to do is look to Missouri's recruiting successes in just two years in the SEC. I figure the money for an SEC with Kansas, N.C. State, OSU, and Va Tech would be essentially equal to the Big 10. Kansas would have a decision to make too. Do they want a competition rich Big 10 for hoops, or would they prefer to remain a clear King in a major conference with Kentucky, Florida, Missouri, and usually Tennessee to contend with. I think a Kansas choice for the SEC would be very much like a Texas and Oklahoma choice for the ACC. OU and UT instantly become the top two ACC football programs in terms of prestige and income. F.S.U. would catch up quickly and Clemson would mount a regular challenge. It would still be their best ticket to the championship round and they would play old friends and cross over rivals. They really don't lose much by making the move in terms of scheduling and the six team division helps solve some of the travel issues. Kansas would have rivals built in with Arkansas, L.S.U., Oklahoma State, and Missouri right around them. There would be just as many contiguous states for Kansas in the SEC as there would be in the Big 10 and the ones in the SEC generally would have better basketball than Nebraska and Iowa. Thoughts?
02-03-2014 01:51 AM
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