I agree, too, that King is better than Adonis.

(01-21-2014 10:43 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  Four Guards, Three Guards or Two Guards none of that crap means anything if they don't learn to stay in front of their man and actually properly guard the high screen.

The only player that hurt us was Prather due to size....Hancock hurt us by shooting and getting to the rack (inexcusable honestly). The word is out on our team and it is clear how to score on us...Set the high screen and everything else will fall apart or just beat one of our gambling guards off the dribble...Someone needs to tell/enforce the rule that stealing the ball is not your primary objective when you are playing defense.

They are being coached to do this. Do you see how much we shade to the non-dominant hand of opposing guards. It's absurd, like 2 feet. It's no wonder they get beaten off the dribble with the lanes they give up

(01-21-2014 01:20 PM)Dat.B.Me Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 10:12 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 02:53 AM)tigerderek Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:44 AM)Nirvana1988 Wrote:  For those complaining about the 3/4 guard line up, and it doesn't work, I have watch college basketball for years, I've seen Villanova do it between 05-09, go to 5 a straight tournaments, 4 sweet 16, 2 elite 8's, and a final four, never starting anyone over 6'8, on they final four team, they starting center Dante Cunningham was 6'7 230 maybe. I've seen Florida make it to an elite 8, with a nba shooting guard in a 6'4 Bardley Beals playing the 4. I watched Illinois almost win a championship with one. Also Missouri in 2012 with our own Michael Dixon be a 2 seed. Yes its tough, but it can work.

If we didn't stink from 3 we wouldn't even be having this discussion...it is what it is.

Every single thread on 3/4 guard offense needs to start and finish with this statement.

We can't just out shoot people to win , we need to make defensive stops, rebounds and alter shots... Thats the problem with the 3/4 guards set....

yes

(01-21-2014 01:23 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:44 AM)Nirvana1988 Wrote:  For those complaining about the 3/4 guard line up, and it doesn't work, I have watch college basketball for years, I've seen Villanova do it between 05-09, go to 5 a straight tournaments, 4 sweet 16, 2 elite 8's, and a final four, never starting anyone over 6'8, on they final four team, they starting center Dante Cunningham was 6'7 230 maybe. I've seen Florida make it to an elite 8, with a nba shooting guard in a 6'4 Bardley Beals playing the 4. I watched Illinois almost win a championship with one. Also Missouri in 2012 with our own Michael Dixon be a 2 seed. Yes its tough, but it can work.

Hey, that's great. Of course it means the other 315 teams you've seen make the Sweet 16 didn't do it. So, does that mean it's a good idea if 5/320 teams can do it?

There's tons of teams that run three guard lineups this season. It's extremely common. Hell, UConn runs Kromah almost as much at the 2 as they do the 3 (and never at the 4), so THEY essentially run a 3 guard lineup.

Kansas (Tharpe, Seldon, Wiggins (although he's an enormous guard))
Ohio State (Craft Scott, Smith)
Creighton (Chapman, Manhigat (sp?), Brooks)

And that's just top 25 teams (or close) that played last night that run 3 guards lineups.

(01-21-2014 01:24 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:20 PM)Dat.B.Me Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 10:12 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 02:53 AM)tigerderek Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:44 AM)Nirvana1988 Wrote:  For those complaining about the 3/4 guard line up, and it doesn't work, I have watch college basketball for years, I've seen Villanova do it between 05-09, go to 5 a straight tournaments, 4 sweet 16, 2 elite 8's, and a final four, never starting anyone over 6'8, on they final four team, they starting center Dante Cunningham was 6'7 230 maybe. I've seen Florida make it to an elite 8, with a nba shooting guard in a 6'4 Bardley Beals playing the 4. I watched Illinois almost win a championship with one. Also Missouri in 2012 with our own Michael Dixon be a 2 seed. Yes its tough, but it can work.

If we didn't stink from 3 we wouldn't even be having this discussion...it is what it is.

Every single thread on 3/4 guard offense needs to start and finish with this statement.

We can't just out shoot people to win , we need to make defensive stops, rebounds and alter shots... Thats the problem with the 3/4 guards set....

No, but any guards (whether there are two, three or four on the court) HAVE to make shots to keep defenses honest. It's simply a fact of life. If there is no long distance threat, the defense will just key on the bigs and stop penetration.

We've been outrebounding every AAC team we've played before the UConn game, so the 3 guard lineup is taking care of business there. In the UConn game, Pellom, Shaq and Austin grabbed zero rebounds in the seocnd half. Zero. Nada. That's not on the guards.

It is when the reason they don't get rebounds is because either

a) UConn is hitting an uncontested 3

or

b) the big is out of position because he had to leave his man and leave rebounding position to try to protect the rim as our guards give up a big driving lane to the hole.

(01-21-2014 01:27 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 09:28 AM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 09:21 AM)bluebacker Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 10:29 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 10:21 PM)bluebacker Wrote:  It's a big wing player (the 3) that can really kill the 3-4 guard line up. Hancock at Louisville is a good example. He dropped about 20 on us because he was being guarded by a much smaller player.

Most of us knew that we'd have no one on this year's roster that could guard a good opposing SF (Hancock's really just a decent SF; guys like Blackshear and Prather are the elite). It was just an unfortunate truth going into the year. We'd have a veteran guard corp, an extremely talented but young front court but no one ready to guard a true 3 man.

Nick King is 6-7 and is either a 2 or a 3.

Not right now he's not. He is what he can guard on defense, and right now there is no reason to believe that he can guard an opposing 3 man, let alone a 2. The knock on him coming in was his defense, and I haven't seen him stick an opposing three such to dispell that criticism.

Right now Nick King is suited to the 4 spot.

I haven't seen him play bad on defense and he hasn't been given enough minutes at the 3 to really know anyway.

You're taking his lack of minutes at the 3 to mean he can't play defense, when what it really means is simply Pastner isn't bold enough to play him and find out.

Every scouting report on the kid said that his defense would be an issue coming into this year. Put 2 and 2 together.

I take his lack of minutes at the 3 to mean that the guys that see him play in practice every day think he can't guard the three right now.

But time will tell, there's no rush to throw these kids into the fire.

(01-21-2014 01:33 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:23 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:44 AM)Nirvana1988 Wrote:  For those complaining about the 3/4 guard line up, and it doesn't work, I have watch college basketball for years, I've seen Villanova do it between 05-09, go to 5 a straight tournaments, 4 sweet 16, 2 elite 8's, and a final four, never starting anyone over 6'8, on they final four team, they starting center Dante Cunningham was 6'7 230 maybe. I've seen Florida make it to an elite 8, with a nba shooting guard in a 6'4 Bardley Beals playing the 4. I watched Illinois almost win a championship with one. Also Missouri in 2012 with our own Michael Dixon be a 2 seed. Yes its tough, but it can work.

Hey, that's great. Of course it means the other 315 teams you've seen make the Sweet 16 didn't do it. So, does that mean it's a good idea if 5/320 teams can do it?

There's tons of teams that run three guard lineups this season. It's extremely common. Hell, UConn runs Kromah almost as much at the 2 as they do the 3 (and never at the 4), so THEY essentially run a 3 guard lineup.

Kansas (Tharpe, Seldon, Wiggins (although he's an enormous guard))
Ohio State (Craft Scott, Smith)
Creighton (Chapman, Manhigat (sp?), Brooks)

And that's just top 25 teams (or close) that played last night that run 3 guards lineups.

all these teams have guys with size to match up with bigger SF and do not exclusively run 3 guard. KU's guards are enormous. We pretty much exclusively run 3 guard and sometimes 4 guards. I personally don't have a problem running 3 guards maybe half the time. I do have a problem running it 38 minutes/game

(01-21-2014 01:33 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:24 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:20 PM)Dat.B.Me Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 10:12 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 02:53 AM)tigerderek Wrote:  If we didn't stink from 3 we wouldn't even be having this discussion...it is what it is.

Every single thread on 3/4 guard offense needs to start and finish with this statement.

We can't just out shoot people to win , we need to make defensive stops, rebounds and alter shots... Thats the problem with the 3/4 guards set....

No, but any guards (whether there are two, three or four on the court) HAVE to make shots to keep defenses honest. It's simply a fact of life. If there is no long distance threat, the defense will just key on the bigs and stop penetration.

We've been outrebounding every AAC team we've played before the UConn game, so the 3 guard lineup is taking care of business there. In the UConn game, Pellom, Shaq and Austin grabbed zero rebounds in the seocnd half. Zero. Nada. That's not on the guards.

It is when the reason they don't get rebounds is because either

a) UConn is hitting an uncontested 3

or

b) the big is out of position because he had to leave his man and leave rebounding position to try to protect the rim as our guards give up a big driving lane to the hole.

Ok brother. Keep telling yourself that.

(01-21-2014 01:40 PM)jgardne Wrote:  all these teams have guys with size to match up with bigger SF and do not exclusively run 3 guard. KU's guards are enormous. We pretty much exclusively run 3 guard and sometimes 4 guards. I personally don't have a problem running 3 guards maybe half the time. I do have a problem running it 38 minutes/game

A lot of those teams run 3 guards as their most common lineup. Hem and Haw about it as much as you'd like, it happens alot.

I'd love to have a dependable SF so that we can run a conventional lineup most of the time, but we just don't have one. I've been calling Pastner constantly and telling him to trade for one before the deadline closes, but he doesn't listen.

(01-21-2014 09:28 AM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 09:21 AM)bluebacker Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 10:29 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 10:21 PM)bluebacker Wrote:  It's a big wing player (the 3) that can really kill the 3-4 guard line up. Hancock at Louisville is a good example. He dropped about 20 on us because he was being guarded by a much smaller player.

Most of us knew that we'd have no one on this year's roster that could guard a good opposing SF (Hancock's really just a decent SF; guys like Blackshear and Prather are the elite). It was just an unfortunate truth going into the year. We'd have a veteran guard corp, an extremely talented but young front court but no one ready to guard a true 3 man.

Nick King is 6-7 and is either a 2 or a 3.

Not right now he's not. He is what he can guard on defense, and right now there is no reason to believe that he can guard an opposing 3 man, let alone a 2. The knock on him coming in was his defense, and I haven't seen him stick an opposing three such to dispell that criticism.

Right now Nick King is suited to the 4 spot.

He has the physical ability, he just doesnt know how. Knowing how comes with coaching and experience. We know he is not getting the experience this year, the coaching is up for debate.

(01-21-2014 01:42 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:40 PM)jgardne Wrote:  all these teams have guys with size to match up with bigger SF and do not exclusively run 3 guard. KU's guards are enormous. We pretty much exclusively run 3 guard and sometimes 4 guards. I personally don't have a problem running 3 guards maybe half the time. I do have a problem running it 38 minutes/game

A lot of those teams run 3 guards as their most common lineup. Hem and Haw about it as much as you'd like, it happens alot.

I'd love to have a dependable SF so that we can run a conventional lineup most of the time, but we just don't have one. I've been calling Pastner constantly and telling him to trade for one before the deadline closes, but he doesn't listen.

Nick King is ready, he just needs the opportunity. he scores, he rebounds, he hustles on defense. His leash is as short as Crawford's is long though.

Pastner is making a mistake on this one. If you don't realize it this year, you'll realize it next year when King is lighting people up from day one.

(01-21-2014 12:28 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 12:21 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 12:09 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 11:58 AM)Antonio5fan Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 10:21 PM)bluebacker Wrote:  It's a big wing player (the 3) that can really kill the 3-4 guard line up. Hancock at Louisville is a good example. He dropped about 20 on us because he was being guarded by a much smaller player.

So did Pepper with Temple. The problem is our taller players are not quick enough to do better. They would simply be faked out of their shorts (especially against Hancock) and drive to the basket where there is no resident shot blocker who is feared. Josh just has to play the cards he has.

Bingo. We can't trade for a SF half-way through the season or grab one from free agency. Make your current roster work.

Although Pepper for Temple took more of a "spray and pray" approach. He had about 12 pts off ill-advised, low percentage shots that just managed to find the hole.

Pepper his GUARD (outside) shots...He didn't post up smaller players so our GUARDS should have been able to stop those...He wasn't shooting over anyone, he was open

Hancock didn't post anyone either he hit open threes and scored off of back cuts and high screens getting him to the rim...

Those plays were not made because we were not big enough at the 3. We are a poor defensive team off the dribble and with team communication...

Three of his 3 pt makes came with a hand in his face and a fourth seemed like it was 30 ft out. The defense on Pepper wasn't nearly as bad as people seem to think. He had a few open looks, but all his points didn't come off open three. He mad several really tough shots.

Hancock scored a lot because Pastner played Crawford on him with 2 fouls. I don't know why that was the call, but Crawford had to give him the lane in man to man because he didn't want to pick up another.

Still guard plays...Size would not have fixed those issues. Size was not the advantage with those plays...Awareness and Basketball IQ were more issues than anything else.

(01-21-2014 01:45 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:42 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:40 PM)jgardne Wrote:  all these teams have guys with size to match up with bigger SF and do not exclusively run 3 guard. KU's guards are enormous. We pretty much exclusively run 3 guard and sometimes 4 guards. I personally don't have a problem running 3 guards maybe half the time. I do have a problem running it 38 minutes/game

A lot of those teams run 3 guards as their most common lineup. Hem and Haw about it as much as you'd like, it happens alot.

I'd love to have a dependable SF so that we can run a conventional lineup most of the time, but we just don't have one. I've been calling Pastner constantly and telling him to trade for one before the deadline closes, but he doesn't listen.

Nick King is ready, he just needs the opportunity. he scores, he rebounds, he hustles on defense. His leash is as short as Crawford's is long though.

Pastner is making a mistake on this one. If you don't realize it this year, you'll realize it next year when King is lighting people up from day one.

From what I have seen Nicks lateral movement sucks...Which is going to make it extremely difficult for him to guard anyone who has decent handles.

(01-21-2014 01:40 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:33 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:23 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:44 AM)Nirvana1988 Wrote:  For those complaining about the 3/4 guard line up, and it doesn't work, I have watch college basketball for years, I've seen Villanova do it between 05-09, go to 5 a straight tournaments, 4 sweet 16, 2 elite 8's, and a final four, never starting anyone over 6'8, on they final four team, they starting center Dante Cunningham was 6'7 230 maybe. I've seen Florida make it to an elite 8, with a nba shooting guard in a 6'4 Bardley Beals playing the 4. I watched Illinois almost win a championship with one. Also Missouri in 2012 with our own Michael Dixon be a 2 seed. Yes its tough, but it can work.

Hey, that's great. Of course it means the other 315 teams you've seen make the Sweet 16 didn't do it. So, does that mean it's a good idea if 5/320 teams can do it?

There's tons of teams that run three guard lineups this season. It's extremely common. Hell, UConn runs Kromah almost as much at the 2 as they do the 3 (and never at the 4), so THEY essentially run a 3 guard lineup.

Kansas (Tharpe, Seldon, Wiggins (although he's an enormous guard))
Ohio State (Craft Scott, Smith)
Creighton (Chapman, Manhigat (sp?), Brooks)

And that's just top 25 teams (or close) that played last night that run 3 guards lineups.

all these teams have guys with size to match up with bigger SF and do not exclusively run 3 guard. KU's guards are enormous. We pretty much exclusively run 3 guard and sometimes 4 guards. I personally don't have a problem running 3 guards maybe half the time. I do have a problem running it 38 minutes/game

Mason 5'11
Tharpe 5'11

Another guy that watches every game.

(01-21-2014 01:49 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:45 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:42 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:40 PM)jgardne Wrote:  all these teams have guys with size to match up with bigger SF and do not exclusively run 3 guard. KU's guards are enormous. We pretty much exclusively run 3 guard and sometimes 4 guards. I personally don't have a problem running 3 guards maybe half the time. I do have a problem running it 38 minutes/game

A lot of those teams run 3 guards as their most common lineup. Hem and Haw about it as much as you'd like, it happens alot.

I'd love to have a dependable SF so that we can run a conventional lineup most of the time, but we just don't have one. I've been calling Pastner constantly and telling him to trade for one before the deadline closes, but he doesn't listen.

Nick King is ready, he just needs the opportunity. he scores, he rebounds, he hustles on defense. His leash is as short as Crawford's is long though.

Pastner is making a mistake on this one. If you don't realize it this year, you'll realize it next year when King is lighting people up from day one.

From what I have seen Nicks lateral movement sucks...Which is going to make it extremely difficult for him to guard anyone who has decent handles.

I can't remember him getting beaten off the dribble this year. I'm sure it's happened, but it doesn't stick out to me as a weak spot. We don't see him enough to really judge. I've not noticed his defense to be bad when he's in. it doesn't stand out the way CC's does sometimes

(01-21-2014 01:51 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:40 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:33 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:23 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:44 AM)Nirvana1988 Wrote:  For those complaining about the 3/4 guard line up, and it doesn't work, I have watch college basketball for years, I've seen Villanova do it between 05-09, go to 5 a straight tournaments, 4 sweet 16, 2 elite 8's, and a final four, never starting anyone over 6'8, on they final four team, they starting center Dante Cunningham was 6'7 230 maybe. I've seen Florida make it to an elite 8, with a nba shooting guard in a 6'4 Bardley Beals playing the 4. I watched Illinois almost win a championship with one. Also Missouri in 2012 with our own Michael Dixon be a 2 seed. Yes its tough, but it can work.

Hey, that's great. Of course it means the other 315 teams you've seen make the Sweet 16 didn't do it. So, does that mean it's a good idea if 5/320 teams can do it?

There's tons of teams that run three guard lineups this season. It's extremely common. Hell, UConn runs Kromah almost as much at the 2 as they do the 3 (and never at the 4), so THEY essentially run a 3 guard lineup.

Kansas (Tharpe, Seldon, Wiggins (although he's an enormous guard))
Ohio State (Craft Scott, Smith)
Creighton (Chapman, Manhigat (sp?), Brooks)

And that's just top 25 teams (or close) that played last night that run 3 guards lineups.

all these teams have guys with size to match up with bigger SF and do not exclusively run 3 guard. KU's guards are enormous. We pretty much exclusively run 3 guard and sometimes 4 guards. I personally don't have a problem running 3 guards maybe half the time. I do have a problem running it 38 minutes/game

Mason 5'11
Tharpe 5'11

Another guy that watches every game.

Another guy that reads every post. He mentions Seldon who is 6'5 230 and Wiggins who is 6'8" 210. Those are pretty big guards in my book.

Bottom line the biggest issue with this team is getting beat off the dribble and knowing how to guard a high screen...That is where we lose games...

Yes 9 times out of 10 those are guards getting caught on screens but if it was King or Iverson if the help and communication is not there them being taller is not going to help.

And getting a bigger player on defense is not going to help getting beat off the dribble...Pastner needs to tell his guys to quit gambling for a steal and give a little space and stay in front of their damn man. I would say that it could be a talent deal why we are getting beat if it wasn't the fact that our guys are constantly reaching for steals without any complaints or consequences from the coach. This leads me to believe that this is an acceptable way to play defense for Memphis.

(01-21-2014 12:24 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  So now Murphy was a defensive "guru"?

I've heard Easterwood and others say as much on the radio. They may not have used the word "guru" but the consensus has been that he was responsible for defensive gameplanning while here and our defense has not been as good since he left.

(01-21-2014 01:20 PM)Dat.B.Me Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 10:12 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 02:53 AM)tigerderek Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 01:44 AM)Nirvana1988 Wrote:  For those complaining about the 3/4 guard line up, and it doesn't work, I have watch college basketball for years, I've seen Villanova do it between 05-09, go to 5 a straight tournaments, 4 sweet 16, 2 elite 8's, and a final four, never starting anyone over 6'8, on they final four team, they starting center Dante Cunningham was 6'7 230 maybe. I've seen Florida make it to an elite 8, with a nba shooting guard in a 6'4 Bardley Beals playing the 4. I watched Illinois almost win a championship with one. Also Missouri in 2012 with our own Michael Dixon be a 2 seed. Yes its tough, but it can work.

If we didn't stink from 3 we wouldn't even be having this discussion...it is what it is.

Every single thread on 3/4 guard offense needs to start and finish with this statement.

We can't just out shoot people to win , we need to make defensive stops, rebounds and alter shots...

I actually agree with this. The j isn't going to be there everynight even for a decent shooting team, got to be able to find another way to win when the shots arent falling and that starts with defense. But I'm not ready to accept that playing 3 or 4 guards is always the problem. UCONN killed us with a stretch 4 hitting threes before our bigs could get out to him and contest the shots. I may be wrong but I seem to remember him doing a lot of his dammmage early in the second half when we still had Shaq and Austin in the game at the same time.

(01-21-2014 01:46 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  Still guard plays...Size would not have fixed those issues. Size was not the advantage with those plays...Awareness and Basketball IQ were more issues than anything else.

Ok, I think I misunderstood what you were saying.