(01-20-2014 11:24 AM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  I agree with a lot of it too. Except I think he could manage players better. Wilson, King and Iverson could all be playing. We have depth, and good depth. A lot of teams that play short rotations simply cannot go much deeper then that. We can.

Look at out 7 man rotation we have primarily used and compare it to the tops teams 7-8 they use. After that we are still strong, them, not so much.

All three were playing a lot to begin the year, and then OSU carved us up like a ham. We constricted the lineup (should be seen as a great adjustment by Pastner), and suddenly we're playing much better and beating three top 15 teams.

I'm hopeful that King, Wilson, Iverson and Dom will be playing more in March than they have been so far in conference, but the constricted rotation has worked for us up to this point. Get these guys eased in slow and steady, which has been happening IMO.

(01-20-2014 11:33 AM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:24 AM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  I agree with a lot of it too. Except I think he could manage players better. Wilson, King and Iverson could all be playing. We have depth, and good depth. A lot of teams that play short rotations simply cannot go much deeper then that. We can.

Look at out 7 man rotation we have primarily used and compare it to the tops teams 7-8 they use. After that we are still strong, them, not so much.

All three were playing a lot to begin the year, and then OSU carved us up like a ham. We constricted the lineup (should be seen as a great adjustment by Pastner), and suddenly we're playing much better and beating three top 15 teams.

I'm hopeful that King, Wilson, Iverson and Dom will be playing more in March than they have been so far in conference, but the constricted rotation has worked for us up to this point. Get these guys eased in slow and steady, which has been happening IMO.

Oklahoma State was our 2nd game of the season.. We got carved up playing 3 guards. King came in and had 23 points/8 rebounds in 15 minutes.

(01-20-2014 11:28 AM)Briskbas Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 10:53 AM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  ...

"I can't wait til Tarik Black gets here, Coleman and Witherspoon cannot cut it."
"I can't wait til Shaq gets here, Tarik Black cannot cut it."
"Why didn't we play more Stan Simpson and Ferro Hall in _____ game."
"Geron Johnson is going to come in and be the best player on the court from day one."
"Mike Dixon is going to come in and be the best player on the court for us from day one."

This board has a bad habit of assuming that the unknown MUST be better than the known.

Eh. Pastner could have played Hall more last year, if just to rest his other front court guys. He didn't really give you much, but he wasn't too much of a liability either.

Similarly, he should probably use King more. Wilson can't seem to put it together in game. Iverson's talented, but just looks too unsteady. Dom's conditioning especially makes him a liability in all but a few situations (and judging by what I saw against LO, I think he may have hit a wall anyway). But I think King needs to be playing at least 15 minutes a game.

At his current level of production, if you gave him 20 minutes he'd be getting 11 pts and 6rbs, and if you gave him 25 minutes he'd be our leading scorer and rebounder at 14.7 and 7.8. Sure that's probably not going to hold up if you give him extended play, especially since he hasn't been seeing the floor a whole lot during crunch time or anything. Nevertheless, I do think Pastner needs to figure out how to fit King in the rotation. And he needs to do it without burying someone else on the bench like what happened to Hall when Pastner started leaning on Stephens last year.

I think you and I have discussed the Ferro Hall thing before and I agree with you (not so much Stan Simpson). Ferro Hall was our second most efficient rebounder last year, and I think he could've seen more minutes.

There's no question that King can contribute on offense and on the offensive boards. I'm just worried that he's not ready to guard an opposing 3 in man to man. Against LO, he's was matched up with their 4 almost the entire game (letting Iverson guard the 3). I think that was telling.

(01-20-2014 11:35 AM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:33 AM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:24 AM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  I agree with a lot of it too. Except I think he could manage players better. Wilson, King and Iverson could all be playing. We have depth, and good depth. A lot of teams that play short rotations simply cannot go much deeper then that. We can.

Look at out 7 man rotation we have primarily used and compare it to the tops teams 7-8 they use. After that we are still strong, them, not so much.

All three were playing a lot to begin the year, and then OSU carved us up like a ham. We constricted the lineup (should be seen as a great adjustment by Pastner), and suddenly we're playing much better and beating three top 15 teams.

I'm hopeful that King, Wilson, Iverson and Dom will be playing more in March than they have been so far in conference, but the constricted rotation has worked for us up to this point. Get these guys eased in slow and steady, which has been happening IMO.

Oklahoma State was our 2nd game of the season..

It was, but who is to say that we have wins over OSU and Louisville if we still play a 9 man rotation with no "course correction".

(01-20-2014 11:35 AM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  Oklahoma State was our 2nd game of the season.. We got carved up playing 3 guards. King came in and had 23 points/8 rebounds in 15 minutes.

Nick King, Wilson and Dom played pretty extensively in the first half. A lot of Nick's points came of putbacks when we were already down 35.

(01-20-2014 11:33 AM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:24 AM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  I agree with a lot of it too. Except I think he could manage players better. Wilson, King and Iverson could all be playing. We have depth, and good depth. A lot of teams that play short rotations simply cannot go much deeper then that. We can.

Look at out 7 man rotation we have primarily used and compare it to the tops teams 7-8 they use. After that we are still strong, them, not so much.

All three were playing a lot to begin the year, and then OSU carved us up like a ham. We constricted the lineup (should be seen as a great adjustment by Pastner), and suddenly we're playing much better and beating three top 15 teams.

I'm hopeful that King, Wilson, Iverson and Dom will be playing more in March than they have been so far in conference, but the constricted rotation has worked for us up to this point. Get these guys eased in slow and steady, which has been happening IMO.

I remember when Finch had a group of talented freshmen who came on late in the season.(Henderson, Garner, etc.) It was like a light bulb came on during conference tourney play and that team made an unexpected deep run. I'm hopeful this current bunch can do the same thing. Albeit, significantly different circumstances exist.

(01-20-2014 11:38 AM)Tigerbluesky Wrote:  I remember when Finch had a group of talented freshmen who came on late in the season.(Henderson, Garner, etc.) It was like a light bulb came on during conference tourney play and that team made an unexpected deep run. I'm hopeful this current bunch can do the same thing. Albeit, significantly different circumstances exist.

There's still a lot more to click with this year's team before they start playing their best ball. The three point shooting will improve and we'll find 2 or more players that can contribute in high-level games. I'm confident about both of these things.

(01-20-2014 11:36 AM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  ...

I think you and I have discussed the Ferro Hall thing before and I agree with you (not so much Stan Simpson). Ferro Hall was our second most efficient rebounder last year, and I think he could've seen more minutes.

There's no question that King can contribute on offense and on the offensive boards. I'm just worried that he's not ready to guard an opposing 3 in man to man. Against LO, he's was matched up with their 4 almost the entire game (letting Iverson guard the 3). I think that was telling.

I was always a Simpson skeptic, even before the season started last year and he was supposedly ripping it up in practice. Like Wilson, he just seemed like he was unable to put it together in game for whatever reason.

(01-20-2014 11:38 AM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:35 AM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  Oklahoma State was our 2nd game of the season.. We got carved up playing 3 guards. King came in and had 23 points/8 rebounds in 15 minutes.

Nick King, Wilson and Dom played pretty extensively in the first half. A lot of Nick's points came of putbacks when we were already down 35.

Nick played 5 mins in the first half (5 pts 4 rebs)

King came in at 13:32. Memphis down 16-12. He subbed out with 11 mins. Memphis down 17-16. He had 4 pts and 1 reb.

He came in again at 8:22. Memphis down 31-20. Subbed out at 6:59. Had 1 rebound. 35-22.

Came back in at 1:55. Memphis down 47-28. Had 1 pt, 2 rebs and 1 steal. Halftime score of 50-32.

Finished with a +2 in the 1st half.


Wilson played 11 and Dom played 6.

(01-20-2014 11:59 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:38 AM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:35 AM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  Oklahoma State was our 2nd game of the season.. We got carved up playing 3 guards. King came in and had 23 points/8 rebounds in 15 minutes.

Nick King, Wilson and Dom played pretty extensively in the first half. A lot of Nick's points came of putbacks when we were already down 35.

Nick played 5 mins in the first half (5 pts 4 rebs)

King came in at 13:32. Memphis down 16-12. He subbed out with 11 mins. Memphis down 17-16. He had 4 pts and 1 reb.

He came in again at 8:22. Memphis down 31-20. Subbed out at 6:59. Had 1 rebound. 35-22.

Came back in at 1:55. Memphis down 47-28. Had 1 pt, 2 rebs and 1 steal. Halftime score of 50-32.

Finished with a +2 in the 1st half.


Wilson played 11 and Dom played 6.

Can't remember when exactly Wilson and Dom played (I clearly remember Wilson in the first half) but yeah, King wasn't lighting it up in teh first half, and the second half was even worse if I remember correctly.

King WASN'T doing well? In three limited stretches he contributed and was a positive outcome player in the limited time he was in.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/mem/...120aaa.pdf

(01-20-2014 12:12 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  King WASN'T doing well? In three limited stretches he contributed and was a positive outcome player in the limited time he was in.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/mem/...120aaa.pdf

+2 is average at best. I guess he did well when compared to other players on our team who had horrid outings.

But Nick continued to get significant PT after that game. He had 19 minutes in the Nichols State game but went 3-12 from the FT line.

He had 15 minutes vs Siena and put up great numbers.

Then he came up empty against LSU and Okie State II.

(01-20-2014 12:22 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 12:12 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  King WASN'T doing well? In three limited stretches he contributed and was a positive outcome player in the limited time he was in.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/mem/...120aaa.pdf

+2 is average at best. I guess he did well when compared to other players on our team who had horrid outings.

But Nick continued to get significant PT after that game. He had 19 minutes in the Nichols State game but went 3-12 from the FT line.

He had 15 minutes vs Siena and put up great numbers.

Then he came up empty against LSU and Okie State II.

but went 3-12 from the FT line.
^
This, albeit a terrible %.....It's very impressive that he got that many attempts....shows activity, shows determination,hard to handle....and would drive an opposing coach crazy<That's the bright side

I think he also showed that he can make them against LO, and the 3-12 was an anomaly.

(01-20-2014 12:07 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:59 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:38 AM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:35 AM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  Oklahoma State was our 2nd game of the season.. We got carved up playing 3 guards. King came in and had 23 points/8 rebounds in 15 minutes.

Nick King, Wilson and Dom played pretty extensively in the first half. A lot of Nick's points came of putbacks when we were already down 35.

Nick played 5 mins in the first half (5 pts 4 rebs)

King came in at 13:32. Memphis down 16-12. He subbed out with 11 mins. Memphis down 17-16. He had 4 pts and 1 reb.

He came in again at 8:22. Memphis down 31-20. Subbed out at 6:59. Had 1 rebound. 35-22.

Came back in at 1:55. Memphis down 47-28. Had 1 pt, 2 rebs and 1 steal. Halftime score of 50-32.

Finished with a +2 in the 1st half.


Wilson played 11 and Dom played 6.

Can't remember when exactly Wilson and Dom played (I clearly remember Wilson in the first half) but yeah, King wasn't lighting it up in teh first half, and the second half was even worse if I remember correctly.

Dom, King and Wilson were not the reason we were getting steam rolled and not the reason for the shorter rotation. That goes to Oklahoma State and Marcus Smart.

None of those players really had much to do with it. You have to stop looking at minutes played and assuming things which you do quite often. Our 3 guard line up starting getting rolled. However, anyone would have that night.

LSU playing through the bigs won, same with Oklahoma State the 2nd time.

You seriously keep attributing those wins to guards. Since we assume so much here. I'm gonna assume with King at the three we win by more and get about 4-6 more boards as well.

Look at what actually happened. Box Scores don't tell you everything. Anyone who actually watched our big wins will tell you how we won them.

(01-20-2014 01:34 PM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 12:07 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:59 AM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:38 AM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 11:35 AM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  Oklahoma State was our 2nd game of the season.. We got carved up playing 3 guards. King came in and had 23 points/8 rebounds in 15 minutes.

Nick King, Wilson and Dom played pretty extensively in the first half. A lot of Nick's points came of putbacks when we were already down 35.

Nick played 5 mins in the first half (5 pts 4 rebs)

King came in at 13:32. Memphis down 16-12. He subbed out with 11 mins. Memphis down 17-16. He had 4 pts and 1 reb.

He came in again at 8:22. Memphis down 31-20. Subbed out at 6:59. Had 1 rebound. 35-22.

Came back in at 1:55. Memphis down 47-28. Had 1 pt, 2 rebs and 1 steal. Halftime score of 50-32.

Finished with a +2 in the 1st half.


Wilson played 11 and Dom played 6.

Can't remember when exactly Wilson and Dom played (I clearly remember Wilson in the first half) but yeah, King wasn't lighting it up in teh first half, and the second half was even worse if I remember correctly.

Dom, King and Wilson were not the reason we were getting steam rolled and not the reason for the shorter rotation. That goes to Oklahoma State and Marcus Smart.

None of those players really had much to do with it. You have to stop looking at minutes played and assuming things which you do quite often. Our 3 guard line up starting getting rolled. However, anyone would have that night.

LSU playing through the bigs won, same with Oklahoma State the 2nd time.

You seriously keep attributing those wins to guards. Since we assume so much here. I'm gonna assume with King at the three we win by more and get about 4-6 more boards as well.

Look at what actually happened. Box Scores don't tell you everything. Anyone who actually watched out big wins will tell you how we won them.

I don't always trust those who watch the games either, though. Those who watch the games claimed Josh was going with a four guard offense for a large percentage over every game when it simply isn't true.

(01-20-2014 12:22 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 12:12 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  King WASN'T doing well? In three limited stretches he contributed and was a positive outcome player in the limited time he was in.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/mem/...120aaa.pdf

+2 is average at best. I guess he did well when compared to other players on our team who had horrid outings.

But Nick continued to get significant PT after that game. He had 19 minutes in the Nichols State game but went 3-12 from the FT line.

He had 15 minutes vs Siena and put up great numbers.

Then he came up empty against LSU and Okie State II.

He didn't "come up empty" Pastner didn't play him.

As you noted, he had a fine game vs. Siena in the first day of the Old Spice. Then essentially wasn't played the next two games.

That is the "development" question that persists. He plays 15, 15, 19 and 15 in his first four games. Was scoring, rebounding, NOT turning the ball over and shot 10-14 from the line outside the 3-12 outing.

Then he gets 2 mins. Then 5. Then 16. Then 6. Then 2.

Head scratching stuff.

(01-20-2014 01:34 PM)Tigermaniac Wrote:  Dom, King and Wilson were not the reason we were getting steam rolled and not the reason for the shorter rotation. That goes to Oklahoma State and Marcus Smart.

None of those players really had much to do with it. You have to stop looking at minutes played and assuming things which you do quite often. Our 3 guard line up starting getting rolled. However, anyone would have that night.

LSU playing through the bigs won, same with Oklahoma State the 2nd time.

You seriously keep attributing those wins to guards. Since we assume so much here. I'm gonna assume with King at the three we win by more and get about 4-6 more boards as well.

Look at what actually happened. Box Scores don't tell you everything. Anyone who actually watched our big wins will tell you how we won them.

When did I do that? I think you must be getting me confused with someone else or another argument you were having. I've never said that.

As for the condescension about watching the games and ignoring the stats, I don't know what specific stats (you mention minutes) you're talking about. It seems you and I are having two very different conversations.

(01-20-2014 01:39 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 12:22 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 12:12 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  King WASN'T doing well? In three limited stretches he contributed and was a positive outcome player in the limited time he was in.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/mem/...120aaa.pdf

+2 is average at best. I guess he did well when compared to other players on our team who had horrid outings.

But Nick continued to get significant PT after that game. He had 19 minutes in the Nichols State game but went 3-12 from the FT line.

He had 15 minutes vs Siena and put up great numbers.

Then he came up empty against LSU and Okie State II.

He didn't "come up empty" Pastner didn't play him.

As you noted, he had a fine game vs. Siena in the first day of the Old Spice. Then essentially wasn't played the next two games.

That is the "development" question that persists. He plays 15, 15, 19 and 15 in his first four games. Was scoring, rebounding, NOT turning the ball over and shot 10-14 from the line outside the 3-12 outing.

Then he gets 2 mins. Then 5. Then 16. Then 6. Then 2.

Head scratching stuff.

That is what has always made me wonder with the King situation. He was getting a significant amount of minutes, seemingly playing well, and then all of a sudden he is benched. It seemed really odd.

(01-20-2014 01:39 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  He didn't "come up empty" Pastner didn't play him.

As you noted, he had a fine game vs. Siena in the first day of the Old Spice. Then essentially wasn't played the next two games.

That is the "development" question that persists. He plays 15, 15, 19 and 15 in his first four games. Was scoring, rebounding, NOT turning the ball over and shot 10-14 from the line outside the 3-12 outing.

Then he gets 2 mins. Then 5. Then 16. Then 6. Then 2.

Head scratching stuff.

He played. Not very much, but there was 7 minutes there and I frankly can't tell you that he was spectacular. I know a lot of you guys (not you, Saluki) don't like stats, but he was absent from the stat sheet for those games. Coach has to go with the hot hands, and it's hard to argue that Nick was the hot hand in those games.

Would it have been different if he had 10+ minutes in each? Would we still have won the LSU and OSU games? No one can tell.

But King has gotten minutes even after the "course correction". It's more Iverson and Wilson who seem to be relegated to the bench since then.