(01-18-2014 09:48 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  Other notables -

JMU - 34.5
Liberty - 30.2
Appy - 19.0
Ga Southern - 10.1
Missouri State - 13.6


Of the three schools at the bottom of the SBC list....two get a pass for not having football programs, and the other does not belong in FBS. Is is this school that is the most vocal about us not joining.

Some more education for you...

Missouri State doesn't record it's expenses like other schools because of the lack of a student fee. Therefor, ALL facility expenses are ran through the general university fund. Same with all travel. It doesn't come out (of or get reported in) the athletics budget.

The reality is that Liberty simply has to patiently build a case for inclusion in an FBS conference over time. I do think it will happen within 5 years or so, but I have no clue if it will be SBC or not. Liberty has a lot to offer any conference, they just need some officials to have open minds and do some research.

(01-19-2014 01:10 PM)MSUBear42 Wrote:  

(01-18-2014 09:48 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  Other notables -

JMU - 34.5
Liberty - 30.2
Appy - 19.0
Ga Southern - 10.1
Missouri State - 13.6


Of the three schools at the bottom of the SBC list....two get a pass for not having football programs, and the other does not belong in FBS. Is is this school that is the most vocal about us not joining.

Some more education for you...

Missouri State doesn't record it's expenses like other schools because of the lack of a student fee. Therefor, ALL facility expenses are ran through the general university fund. Same with all travel. It doesn't come out (of or get reported in) the athletics budget.

So your travel plus electric bills are going to equal 17 million? Tell me about women's scholarships - are all of your women's sports fully funded with the NCAA maximum number of scholarships? How ready is Missouri State for a move to the FBS level? How will you balance out the 22 extra football scholarships? Are you prepared to add more women's programs, AND fund them fully with scholarships? How will you pay for it?

Reading the response to a lot of the stuff on this board from the Liberty fans basically shows what's wrong with the university.

Liberty hasn't been invited yet because the presidents don't want them. You can argue that your different ideologies mean nothing, but in the end it's why you haven't been invited.

(01-20-2014 05:16 PM)itsmeagain Wrote:  Reading the response to a lot of the stuff on this board from the Liberty fans basically shows what's wrong with the university.

Liberty hasn't been invited yet because the presidents don't want them. You can argue that your different ideologies mean nothing, but in the end it's why you haven't been invited.

Read my response on the other thread. You're incredibly foolish if you hire a "name" over sheer cognitive brainpower. There are a lot of very smart kids here who wanted to come for the Christian aspect, and they didn't fear not getting a job after college because of Liberty's name....they know that their ability and skills will see them through.

Also....considering our SAT / ACT scores are higher than half of the Sun Belt....what does that say about THEIR academics? Tell me about how you would rather hire a 980 SAT bio graduate than a 1300 SAT bio graduate because the 980 guy went to a state school? Laughable at best.

(01-20-2014 05:25 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 05:16 PM)itsmeagain Wrote:  Reading the response to a lot of the stuff on this board from the Liberty fans basically shows what's wrong with the university.

Liberty hasn't been invited yet because the presidents don't want them. You can argue that your different ideologies mean nothing, but in the end it's why you haven't been invited.

Read my response on the other thread. You're incredibly foolish if you hire a "name" over sheer cognitive brainpower. There are a lot of very smart kids here who wanted to come for the Christian aspect, and they didn't fear not getting a job after college because of Liberty's name....they know that their ability and skills will see them through.

Also....considering our SAT / ACT scores are higher than half of the Sun Belt....what does that say about THEIR academics? Tell me about how you would rather hire a 980 SAT bio graduate than a 1300 SAT bio graduate because the 980 guy went to a state school? Laughable at best.

I already responded over on the other thread. A lot of smart kids who wanted to understand biology wouldn't want to go in with the answer before asking the question, being "God did it, class is over." So they probably aren't that smart are they.

Regarding SAT and ACT scores; these don't show anything about your academics. SAT's and ACT's are taken in high school and would be representative of of the high school, not the university. I wouldn't be hiring anyone based on SAT scores because i don't hire high school students to work in labs. And if they had already graduated university, how would i know their SAT score? It's not on their academic transcript, it's not asked on applications, it's used only for universities to accept students. Also students with high SAT's might graduate with a 1.5 GPA and be useless, so what the hell are you talking about? Is Liberty a high school and i wasn't aware of it?

(01-20-2014 05:32 PM)itsmeagain Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 05:25 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 05:16 PM)itsmeagain Wrote:  Reading the response to a lot of the stuff on this board from the Liberty fans basically shows what's wrong with the university.

Liberty hasn't been invited yet because the presidents don't want them. You can argue that your different ideologies mean nothing, but in the end it's why you haven't been invited.

Read my response on the other thread. You're incredibly foolish if you hire a "name" over sheer cognitive brainpower. There are a lot of very smart kids here who wanted to come for the Christian aspect, and they didn't fear not getting a job after college because of Liberty's name....they know that their ability and skills will see them through.

Also....considering our SAT / ACT scores are higher than half of the Sun Belt....what does that say about THEIR academics? Tell me about how you would rather hire a 980 SAT bio graduate than a 1300 SAT bio graduate because the 980 guy went to a state school? Laughable at best.

I already responded over on the other thread. A lot of smart kids who wanted to understand biology wouldn't want to go in with the answer before asking the question, being "God did it, class is over." So they probably aren't that smart are they.

Regarding SAT and ACT scores; these don't show anything about your academics. SAT's and ACT's are taken in high school and would be representative of of the high school, not the university. I wouldn't be hiring anyone based on SAT scores because i don't hire high school students to work in labs. And if they had already graduated university, how would i know their SAT score? It's not on their academic transcript, it's not asked on applications, it's used only for universities to accept students. Also students with high SAT's might graduate with a 1.5 GPA and be useless, so what the hell are you talking about? Is Liberty a high school and i wasn't aware of it?

SAT scores are highly correlated with IQ.....IQ highly correlated with job performance. Hiring smart people, regardless of where they went to school, is paramount for businesses and organizations. Everything goes back to IQ in the end. High GPA's make great gophers and secretaries...they can follow orders and make great "yes men" and women....it is the high IQ types who innovate and problem solve.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...views.html

This article from the Princeton Review president basically goes on to say how bad the SAT is at determining anything. The SAT is supposed to do one thing, and that is determine how a freshman will perform in their first year. If you judge a graduate student by that, you're gonna have some problems.

You don't give IQ tests when you hire someone. You do ask for GPA's. Read that article. It basically throws all your reasoning out of the window.

I'm also pretty sure Liberty is just a high school still though.

(01-20-2014 05:44 PM)itsmeagain Wrote:  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...views.html

This article from the Princeton Review president basically goes on to say how bad the SAT is at determining anything. The SAT is supposed to do one thing, and that is determine how a freshman will perform in their first year. If you judge a graduate student by that, you're gonna have some problems.

You don't give IQ tests when you hire someone. You do ask for GPA's. Read that article. It basically throws all your reasoning out of the window.

I'm also pretty sure Liberty is just a high school still though.

Do we really want to go down the road of posting study after study after study? Surely we can banter back and forth all night long with studies that refute studies about whether or not the SAT / ACT is a good predictor of g.

http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/koening2008.pdf

"It appears that ACT scores can be used to accurately predict IQ in the general population"


But forget the studies....what is logical? Wouldn't it seem logical and rational that an SAT/ACT would be a good indicator of general intelligence? Why not? Did the "smart" kids in high school just get lucky and do better on the SAT by random chance?

GPA is a measure of motivation....IQ is a measure of raw cognitive brainpower....Ideally you have the best of both worlds, but if the GPA is similar, I am hiring the higher IQ person even if they went to a Christian school.

What kind of business are you running that you wouldn't?

(01-20-2014 06:04 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  

(01-20-2014 05:44 PM)itsmeagain Wrote:  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...views.html

This article from the Princeton Review president basically goes on to say how bad the SAT is at determining anything. The SAT is supposed to do one thing, and that is determine how a freshman will perform in their first year. If you judge a graduate student by that, you're gonna have some problems.

You don't give IQ tests when you hire someone. You do ask for GPA's. Read that article. It basically throws all your reasoning out of the window.

I'm also pretty sure Liberty is just a high school still though.

Do we really want to go down the road of posting study after study after study? Surely we can banter back and forth all night long with studies that refute studies about whether or not the SAT / ACT is a good predictor of g.

http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/koening2008.pdf

"It appears that ACT scores can be used to accurately predict IQ in the general population"


But forget the studies....what is logical? Wouldn't it seem logical and rational that an SAT/ACT would be a good indicator of general intelligence? Why not? Did the "smart" kids in high school just get lucky and do better on the SAT by random chance?

GPA is a measure of motivation....IQ is a measure of raw cognitive brainpower....Ideally you have the best of both worlds, but if the GPA is similar, I am hiring the higher IQ person even if they went to a Christian school.

What kind of business are you running that you wouldn't?

The same business as everyone else? What employers do you know that ask for SAT scores or IQ tests? The employer doesn't get to see the IQ of the person who attends Liberty (we're not talking about a random Christian school, i have no problem with Christianity, but i do have problems with Liberty), nor do they see their SAT score.

Also, you're still begging the question saying "let's just assume IQ tests are valid and good tests and go from there" which is apparently very much in doubt.

And finally, yeah the SAT or ACT might be representative of IQ. But it's for high schoolers, not for graduates. Your IQ changes as you grow and are educated. So what you're saying still makes zero sense, which again might go back to Liberty's academics.

OK, I need Cliff Notes. You have no problem with Christianity, just Liberty. This seems to be a recurrent theme in this forum. Would you care to explain rather than continually dismiss everything out of hand?

For the record, reading the last couple of pages had me wanting my time back by the time I reached this point. Ugh.

(01-20-2014 11:17 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  OK, I need Cliff Notes. You have no problem with Christianity, just Liberty. This seems to be a recurrent theme in this forum. Would you care to explain rather than continually dismiss everything out of hand?

For the record, reading the last couple of pages had me wanting my time back by the time I reached this point. Ugh.

Explain what? Liberty isn't Christianity, nor does it represent all (or any?) real Christian values. Despite those like Falwell's best attempts to make Christianity seem like a hateful, ignorant religion, i refuse to view all Christians in the same way as people like Falwell did, viewing anyone who doesn't abide by the same narrow minded (not to mention unchristian) ideology as himself as being evil, immoral, or dangerous.

Again, it is impossible to judge how the folks at LU really feel and think from your detached 10,000 foot view. If those inside are telling you that you are way off, maybe you should listen. People have posted info and articles to refute your view of Liberty as a hateful place, and you simply dismiss them. I love how "open minded" folks are always the most closed minded.

(01-18-2014 09:48 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  

(01-18-2014 08:55 PM)TheRevSWT Wrote:  1. The SBC needs nothing at this point. We are a viable FBS conference with 11.
2. Where are you getting this from? The App State folks aren't sayign that.
3. You have no clue on this. JMU has not been extended an invitation, and JMU has not said no to an invitation. Merely that they are taking their time in it (there is no benefit to them accepting a bid between the conclusion of their study and June of this year).
4. You aren't the only viable option, you're merely the most vocal.
5. Name a single president that wants Liberty in the Sun Belt.

I call absolute BS on your stance that the two schools want to keep you out because of your budget. I'd like to see some proof of this. Or is this your belief? That's fine to hold that belief, but it doesn't make it accurate or factual.

1. Benson is clearly pissed that he is the only conference that doesn't have a title game. This is one of many, many articles and interview stating that Benson wants 12. http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com...embership/

He has been wearing down the President's and Chancellors over the past two years. He wants 12, and he will have 12.


2. Of course App State fans aren't saying it...they don't care about their athletes missing class. Many others however, do. No doubt the AD and Chancellor will hear about this. http://www2.wataugademocrat.com/News/sto...-id-013757

3. Unless your head has been in the and for the past two years....you would know that JMU clearly doesn't want in the SBC conference. The SBC has not formerly invited because there is no interest....they wouldn't formerly invite only to be publicly embarrassed by the JMU denial. All of these conference moves are squared away behind the scenes before invites are given publicly. JMU wants to align with better academic schools in the MAC...bottom line.

4. Budgets, facilities, Title IX (you all think this is just about football...Title IX is A HUGE part of this and we have been Title IX compliant for 3 years....IE ALL of our women's programs are fully funded with scholarships) Media, staffing, etc....all of these are in better condition for a move up to FBS than anyone else...heck our budget would be first in the SBC and staffing would be right up there as well. We are clearly better positioned than ANY other FCS school except JMU who doesn't want the SBC.

5. GA. State, GA Southern, App State, etc...basically the entire Eastern side would vote us in.


About your last point - SBC expenses in 2012 -


1. WKU - 25.7 million
2. Texas St. - 25.5 million
3. Ga. State - 22.7 million
4. South Alabama - 17.7 million
5. Troy - 16.7
6. ULL - 15.3
7. ASU - 13.2
8. ULM - 9.4
9. UTA - 9.2
10. UALR - 8.6

Other notables -

JMU - 34.5
Liberty - 30.2
Appy - 19.0
Ga Southern - 10.1
Missouri State - 13.6


Of the three schools at the bottom of the SBC list....two get a pass for not having football programs, and the other does not belong in FBS. Is is this school that is the most vocal about us not joining.

Two things, if your point is that Arkansas State doesn't want you because they have a small budget and belong in FCS, and are afraid of your larger budget, I offer this bit of evidence:

Arkansas State, three-time SBC champs, two straight bowl wins. In FCS had numerous 1-AA playoff wins and a national championship appearance. ULM two straight bowl eligible seasons, numerous wins over P5 competition and a bowl appearance. 1-AA national champions in the 1980's.

Liberty, zero FCS playoff wins.

While I don't think anyone would argue ULM's budget is small, compared to Liberty, they have done more with less. AND, got an invite to a FBS conference.

Finally, if it was just two Sun Belt schools keeping Liberty out, why isn't the MAC, C-USA or even the AAc knocking on the door.

I keep telling you guys you can turn a blind eye to what you think is a false perception, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Ignoring an issue, even if it isn't true, doesn't make it go away. You can either accept this, or continually start discussions on why we are wrong and why you deserve an invite, all the while watching realignment pass you by. If your school addresses these issues forcefully and publicly, then you may gain traction. Otherwise, you are just whizzing in the wind.

(01-21-2014 08:31 AM)knucklehead Wrote:  Again, it is impossible to judge how the folks at LU really feel and think from your detached 10,000 foot view. If those inside are telling you that you are way off, maybe you should listen. People have posted info and articles to refute your view of Liberty as a hateful place, and you simply dismiss them. I love how "open minded" folks are always the most closed minded.

...
If you read my post you would note i was talking about Falwell, not Liberty. Falwell was a hateful, spiteful, idiot, i don't need a Liberty grad to try and tell me the opinion i should have of him.

And by the same token, if the people telling me i'm way off happen to be the same people who would benefit from me believing i'm way off, then i feel like their opinions might be just a little bit biased...

(01-21-2014 08:31 AM)knucklehead Wrote:  Again, it is impossible to judge how the folks at LU really feel and think from your detached 10,000 foot view. If those inside are telling you that you are way off, maybe you should listen. People have posted info and articles to refute your view of Liberty as a hateful place, and you simply dismiss them. I love how "open minded" folks are always the most closed minded.

I'm relying on the public statements of the institutions' leadership, the written employment policies, and the student rules of conduct to form my opinion of the school.

I get that one student wasn't kicked out because he was Gay. Congratulations. I also note that he didn't graduate.

The school still discriminates in employment on the basis of sexual orientation and religion (even for non-seminary positions).

The school still continues to affirm Mat Staver as the Dean of its Law School (a VERY high ranking position in leadership) and Matt Barber as an Assoc/Asst Dean. Leadership roles aren't covered by tenure.

(01-20-2014 09:32 AM)knucklehead Wrote:  The reality is that Liberty simply has to patiently build a case for inclusion in an FBS conference over time. I do think it will happen within 5 years or so, but I have no clue if it will be SBC or not. Liberty has a lot to offer any conference, they just need some officials to have open minds and do some research.

You might want to take a look at what ORU has done. They, while remaining patently discriminatory, have at least tried to get rid of the crazy. They also got rid of their dynastic leadership.

I'd still oppose them for membership (private school and discriminatory). But I certainly wouldn't have the treasure trove of ammunition that Barber and Staver provide. I doubt that I'd have the same support in opposing ORU as I would with Liberty.

For the record, the folks who have righted the ship at ORU have long Liberty ties. If anything, ORU has become more like Liberty in recent years as they moved away from the Roberts leadership.

This may surprise you, but there is much more focus on gays on this board than occurs on our campus. Everybody is a sinner. That's why we all need Jesus.

(01-21-2014 09:14 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  For the record, the folks who have righted the ship at ORU have long Liberty ties. If anything, ORU has become more like Liberty in recent years as they moved away from the Roberts leadership.

This may surprise you, but there is much more focus on gays on this board than occurs on our campus. Everybody is a sinner. That's why we all need Jesus.

I would agree with this statement. The "gay issue" really isn't an issue here. We have gay and lesbian students here. They go to school, they graduate. No, we don't have coming out days or gay pride parades, but is that a necessary for inclusion into the SBC?

(01-21-2014 09:37 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  

(01-21-2014 09:14 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  For the record, the folks who have righted the ship at ORU have long Liberty ties. If anything, ORU has become more like Liberty in recent years as they moved away from the Roberts leadership.

This may surprise you, but there is much more focus on gays on this board than occurs on our campus. Everybody is a sinner. That's why we all need Jesus.

I would agree with this statement. The "gay issue" really isn't an issue here. We have gay and lesbian students here. They go to school, they graduate. No, we don't have coming out days or gay pride parades, but is that a necessary for inclusion into the SBC?

Apparently, otherwise you'd be in wouldn't you.