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[split] ALL Liberty related discussion
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #61
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
(01-21-2014 09:37 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  
(01-21-2014 09:14 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  For the record, the folks who have righted the ship at ORU have long Liberty ties. If anything, ORU has become more like Liberty in recent years as they moved away from the Roberts leadership.

This may surprise you, but there is much more focus on gays on this board than occurs on our campus. Everybody is a sinner. That's why we all need Jesus.



I would agree with this statement. The "gay issue" really isn't an issue here. We have gay and lesbian students here. They go to school, they graduate. No, we don't have coming out days or gay pride parades, but is that a necessary for inclusion into the SBC?

1) Mat Staver
2) Matt Barber
3) Advocacy and support for extreme human rights abuses, by an officer of your institution
4) A written policy banning Gay students who are married from attending your school
5) A written policy effectively banning Gay persons and non-evangelicals from being employed by your school.
6) JFJ's apparent endorsement of their University officials engaging in extreme human rights abuses. Lets be clear. LU tells its employees what it can and cant do in their private time. But they remain silent on Barber and Staver.

And that's not even the worst part of the rot that is LU. There's also charges of conspiracy to commit International Child Abduction, in violation of a valid US court order. http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispat...ping_case/

By the way, I don't see how you can tell the difference between LU and Liberty Counsel. Same first name. Same leaders. To me, they are one and the same.
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2014 11:37 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
01-21-2014 11:36 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #62
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
(01-21-2014 09:14 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  For the record, the folks who have righted the ship at ORU have long Liberty ties. If anything, ORU has become more like Liberty in recent years as they moved away from the Roberts leadership.

This may surprise you, but there is much more focus on gays on this board than occurs on our campus. Everybody is a sinner. That's why we all need Jesus.

Trust me if an employee of Liberty's Athletic Department came out as a Gay man/woman, there'd be plenty of focus.

There is a 24/7, non-stop focus on the Gay over at the Law School, apparently.
01-21-2014 11:39 PM
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SlyFox Offline
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Post: #63
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
There is a huge difference between LU Law & Liberty Counsel. The controversial views expressed by Staver & Barber are never on the record as representing the school. But I get your assumption that somehow gay issues dominate the day at either of the above groups. That is simply not the case. But a few statements have carried well beyond the 99% of what LC tries to accomplish. Trust me when we say we understand the confusion.

The law school focuses on law. Period. But I realize that it is pointless to convince you otherwise since you clearly have your mind made up.

The university has all students come together three times a week for a convocation. If you are curious what we are talking about, then you are welcome to watch any of the discussions here:

http://media2.liberty.edu/

I challenge you to find any discussions having a focus on gays. Good luck. Frankly we have much more important issues to address. But then again we don't seem to be as focused on this one issue as some on this board tend to be.
01-22-2014 03:43 PM
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TheRevSWT Offline
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Post: #64
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
Let's put it this way:

There's a 5 gallon punch bowl. The punch is delicious. Just the right amount of alcohol, perfect blend of fruits. Not too hot, not too cold. It's damned tasty as far as punches go.

Then, someone drops a turd in it less than an inch in diameter.

You gonna drink from that? I wouldn't.

Basically, you have two turds in your punch bowl, and their names are Mat Staver and Matt Barber.
01-22-2014 04:03 PM
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SlyFox Offline
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Post: #65
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
So in essence, if Staver & Barber were gone then your opposition to Liberty would be significantly decreased. Is that correct?
01-22-2014 04:05 PM
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TheRevSWT Offline
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Post: #66
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
(01-22-2014 04:05 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  So in essence, if Staver & Barber were gone then your opposition to Liberty would be significantly decreased. Is that correct?

I'd still have reservations, but pretty much yeah. If Liberty were no longer supporting them by employing them (or even if Liberty publicly denounced their actions/support of human rights violations), most of my opposition would be gone.

Note: This is a personal statement, obviously. I'm not gonna speak for anyone else here.
01-22-2014 04:33 PM
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SlyFox Offline
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Post: #67
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
That's all I was asking. The crazy thing is that those two guy are so far removed from nearly everyone at Liberty's personal experience that it is often tough to compute why people despise our school so much when their opinions are shaped so sharply by a couple of guys on the fringe. But I appreciate the candor.
01-22-2014 05:07 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #68
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
(01-22-2014 05:07 PM)SlyFox Wrote:  That's all I was asking. The crazy thing is that those two guy are so far removed from nearly everyone at Liberty's personal experience that it is often tough to compute why people despise our school so much when their opinions are shaped so sharply by a couple of guys on the fringe. But I appreciate the candor.

I would still oppose LU's inclusion as they hold discriminatory employment practices. They are a limited number of jobs available at FBS programs. I'd rather programs that don't discriminate get those slots.

I probably wouldn't have as much support for excluding LU if were not for Barber and Staver. Mat Staver is Dean of the Law School. That's not a fringe position. Its a huge leadership role.
01-22-2014 05:12 PM
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Campaign4Liberty Offline
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Post: #69
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
(01-22-2014 05:12 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  I would still oppose LU's inclusion as they hold discriminatory employment practices. They are a limited number of jobs available at FBS programs. I'd rather programs that don't discriminate get those slots.


An outspoken evangelical PhD applies to teach biology at Berkeley. Will CAL discriminate on hiring or not?

An outspoken neo-con Republican applies to work in the DNC. Will the DNC discriminate or not?

A Liberty graduate wants to study under Richard Dawkins...will he take an honest look at their resume or throw it out as soon as he sees Liberty?

Another Liberty graduate applies to work for American Atheists. Is her resume thrown away or given an honest evaluation?



Tom....people who run organizations with specific missions are charged with upholding the CULTURE of said organization and keep it pointing towards the mission.

Our mission = Training Champions for Christ. We therefore are not going to hire atheists in the same way that the GLAAD is NOT, I repeat, NOT going to hire a religion major from Liberty. I am not sure why that is so hard for you to understand....If you are running a non-profit or a business you're going to hire for culture and for fit. You're going to hire people who are on board with what you're doing. If you have a specific culture you want to uphold you're going to hire for it. If that means discriminating against those who do not share your same views....so be it.

This is how it works Tom, on the left, the right, and all in between. This is how it works at GLAAD and Focus on the Family. Neither are wrong. Do you hear me Tom...neither are wrong. If GLAAD wants to discriminate against a Liberty religion major....I'm all for it because I respect their right to keep their mission of equality for the LGBTA community going in the direction they want. It is highly unlikely a Liberty religion major will help in that regard. Likewise Tom, I believe it natural and quite logical that a CHRISTIAN university would hire CHRISTIAN professors, just the same way a Muslim University like http://www.zaytunacollege.org/ would hire Muslims. It is really not rocket science, Tom.

You seem to be quite anti discrimination...tell me, should GLAAD start to hire outspoken, bible believing evangelicals who want a constitutional amendment for one man / one woman marriage, just to spice up the daily office life? You cannot have it both ways, Tom!
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2014 12:17 PM by Campaign4Liberty.)
01-23-2014 12:16 PM
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TheRevSWT Offline
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Post: #70
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
(01-23-2014 12:16 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  Tom....people who run organizations with specific missions are charged with upholding the CULTURE of said organization and keep it pointing towards the mission.

I'm going to go out on a limb and speak for Tom here:

I think he totally understands that you have the right to hire who you please.

He just doesn't feel that his university should support it by associating with you.

Just as you see nothing wrong with hiring only people that are like minded to the culture you wish to promote, he wants the same for his school. He wants them to associate with schools that are like minded to their culture.

As none of these other universities are tasked with training champions for christ, you are NOT like minded, and therefore he doesn't want to associate with you.

If I am incorrect in that statement Tom, go right ahead and correct me.
01-23-2014 12:23 PM
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Campaign4Liberty Offline
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Post: #71
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
(01-23-2014 12:23 PM)TheRevSWT Wrote:  
(01-23-2014 12:16 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  Tom....people who run organizations with specific missions are charged with upholding the CULTURE of said organization and keep it pointing towards the mission.

I'm going to go out on a limb and speak for Tom here:

I think he totally understands that you have the right to hire who you please.

He just doesn't feel that his university should support it by associating with you.

Just as you see nothing wrong with hiring only people that are like minded to the culture you wish to promote, he wants the same for his school. He wants them to associate with schools that are like minded to their culture.

As none of these other universities are tasked with training champions for christ, you are NOT like minded, and therefore he doesn't want to associate with you.

If I am incorrect in that statement Tom, go right ahead and correct me.




I see your point here. Question - does every SBC member school have a gay student club or advocacy group on campus? Does the school have coming out days and pride days? Are they promoted by the universities?

What I am getting at -

Tom doesn't want SBC schools to associate with Liberty because we discriminate....yet Liberty is gladly willing to associate with SBC member schools who openly disagree with our beliefs.

We hear a lot about tolerance and intolerance on these boards....

Tell me how it is that Liberty, all backwards and bigoted and intolerant, is begging to be associated with a bunch of secular universities with Gay student clubs, coming out days, and pride parades, but said SBC universities avoid us like the plague? Tolerance? Intolerance?

Oh no I've gone cross-eyed.
01-23-2014 12:36 PM
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TheRevSWT Offline
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Post: #72
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
(01-23-2014 12:36 PM)Campaign4Liberty Wrote:  Tell me how it is that Liberty, all backwards and bigoted and intolerant, is begging to be associated with a bunch of secular universities with Gay student clubs, coming out days, and pride parades, but said SBC universities avoid us like the plague? Tolerance? Intolerance?

Oh no I've gone cross-eyed.

You're not totally naive, so I know you are being facetious. Might consider using a real argument rather than absurdity.
01-23-2014 01:55 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #73
RE: [split] ALL Liberty related discussion
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/23...53738.html

Just throwing this on all the LU threads. Champions for Christ? Hardly.
01-24-2014 01:05 PM
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