It has been widely rumored/reported that BYUs refusal to play on Sunday is a major stumbling block for the B12. I don't understand that. It's not like they just made it up. It is an integral part of their religious beliefs. Other conferences have accommodated not playing on Sunday. The NCAA even accommodates teams not playing on Sunday. Is it really a big deal if 1 or 2 (#2 being the BYU opponent) teams don't play on Sunday? Is this really an issue for the B12 or is it the issue that seems to get the most publicity?

It has been rumored/reported that BYUs church affiliation would keep them from becoming a member of the PAC. BYUs affiliation has not helped them dominate the WAC or MWC. Why would it keep them out of the PAC? Honestly, I think they would be a mid-tier team in the PAC or B12. I know the PAC is mostly public schools but this seems a bit excessive.

(01-06-2014 04:44 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  It has been widely rumored/reported that BYUs refusal to play on Sunday is a major stumbling block for the B12. I don't understand that. It's not like they just made it up. It is an integral part of their religious beliefs. Other conferences have accommodated not playing on Sunday. The NCAA even accommodates teams not playing on Sunday. Is it really a big deal if 1 or 2 (#2 being the BYU opponent) teams don't play on Sunday? Is this really an issue for the B12 or is it the issue that seems to get the most publicity?

It has been rumored/reported that BYUs church affiliation would keep them from becoming a member of the PAC. BYUs affiliation has not helped them dominate the WAC or MWC. Why would it keep them out of the PAC? Honestly, I think they would be a mid-tier team in the PAC or B12. I know the PAC is mostly public schools but this seems a bit excessive.

The stories are that it was a problem for Fox. They wanted the flexibility for Sunday play in bb and non-revs.

I think that after Prop 8 the PAC (and particularly, but not exclusively Cal/Berkeley) would go absolutely apesh*t over the idea of BYU becoming a member.

As for the Big 12, I think there are a number of factors at play. First and foremost is likely UT and OU trying to keep their options open - the more members, the more difficult it would be for them to disentangle themselves from the conference if an attractive option were to present itself. Second, after all the disharmony of the original Big 12, I think there's some thought of having more cohesion in the conference. BYU (as is certainly their right) will not bend their principles just for the sake of conference membership, so there's a certain level of independence that may not be seen as appealing. Third, if WVU is an island to the East, BYU is at least as much of one to the West - if the Big 12 were to expand, it would probably make sense to try to do so in either FL or OH. Finally, what I think was an intriguing if unlikely option of a football-only membership for BYU and Notre Dame (getting both national brands on the table, and increasing the affiliate membership football TV inventory more than one team's worth) is not an option with ND throwing its lot in with the ACC in the geographic areas it prefers.

(01-06-2014 04:44 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  It has been widely rumored/reported that BYUs refusal to play on Sunday is a major stumbling block for the B12. I don't understand that. It's not like they just made it up. It is an integral part of their religious beliefs. Other conferences have accommodated not playing on Sunday. The NCAA even accommodates teams not playing on Sunday. Is it really a big deal if 1 or 2 (#2 being the BYU opponent) teams don't play on Sunday? Is this really an issue for the B12 or is it the issue that seems to get the most publicity?

It has been rumored/reported that BYUs church affiliation would keep them from becoming a member of the PAC. BYUs affiliation has not helped them dominate the WAC or MWC. Why would it keep them out of the PAC? Honestly, I think they would be a mid-tier team in the PAC or B12. I know the PAC is mostly public schools but this seems a bit excessive.

The bigger problem for the PAC is that BYU discriminates in its non-seminarian hiring. It discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation and religion. Its a non-starter for the PAC12.

Its less of an issue in the Big XII, as Baylor (which is the only AQ team that discriminates on the basis of religion and sexual orientation in hiring) is a member (although a legacy member that would probably have trouble getting in otherwise), but I think that it causes problems for enough of the college presidents to make BYU's bid not appealing. Add in the Mountain time zone, the no Sunday play rule, and BYU's 'meh' record recently, and you get BYU as an independent.

Not allowing Sunday play kills the Olympic scheduling. To save money and preserve the students' schedules, many teams do Friday/Sunday scheduling for away trips, playing two teams. Having a team not play along with that is another problem.

Thanks for the info. The picture is much clearer now.

Wolfman - It's not the reason why BYU isn't in the Big 12. It might be a convenient excuse for both BYU and the Big 12 to explain why they aren't in the league, but if BYU was clearly going to add more money per school to the Big 12, then they would be added. The MWC offered a full suite of non-revenue sports and they even have some high revenue generating basketball programs like UNLV and SDSU. I heard a lot of complaints from MWC people about BYU on an array of issues, but Sunday play was never one of them. It's a complete red herring - a league that added a total geographic outlier like WVU can easily deal with Sunday play. The only real question is whether BYU (or maybe more importantly, the 12th team what would come with BYU) would bring enough financial heft to the table.

I understand the big stumbling block for BYU was rebroadcast rights-BYU wanted more than what Fox was willing to give.

(01-06-2014 04:54 PM)bullet Wrote:  The stories are that it was a problem for Fox. They wanted the flexibility for Sunday play in bb and non-revs.

I thought Fox split Big 12 football with ESPN but that ESPN has basketball to themselves. Did that change? Are we going to see Big 12 hoops on FS1?

(01-06-2014 05:37 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Not allowing Sunday play kills the Olympic scheduling. To save money and preserve the students' schedules, many teams do Friday/Sunday scheduling for away trips, playing two teams. Having a team not play along with that is another problem.

That's overrated. Many leagues, including both the Big 12 and Pac-12, no longer have lockstep Friday and Sunday scheduling for Olympic team sports and there's enough flexibility to play BYU, if they're in the conference, on a Thursday-Saturday or Friday-Saturday pairing or whatever. If the league made enough money by adding BYU, that would be no issue at all.

BYU and its legal counsel were also "difficult" to deal with. I believe the LDS church and BYU are accustomed to dealing from an advantaged position. That was the last thing existing members located outside Austin wanted to experience. Big 12 members were focused making everything equal outside individual member's tier-3 broadcast rights. BYU attempted to negotiate some special considerations in addition to no Sunday play and that was a fatal mistake...at least in the eyes of member schools. FOX having reservations about no Sunday play would be an additional impediment.

BYU also played on Sunday once upon a time, so it wouldn't be unprecedented to rescind the policy. The hangup is that BYU sports were sort of forced to amp up their focus on being a missionary tool for the church in order for the church to invest in the infrastructure of BYU-TV's sports broadcast apparatus. That stronger commitment to the eclesiastical mission was already underway, but I think the church's investment in the indy project was sort of a point of no return for the sports programs and their ability to operate with a little more leniency (which is how things were in the 80's when BYU was good).

No Sunday play was never an issue for the Big 12 or the tv networks. BYU's insistence on replaying all their games on their own network was a problem. But, the real reason why BYU remains independent is because the old men who run the LDS church feel that independence allows them to spread the word over a larger part of the country than being geographically locked into a low population density area.

The LDS church doesn't care about the money to be made in the Big 12. To them, it is chump change.

(01-06-2014 04:56 PM)BewareThePhog Wrote:  I think that after Prop 8 the PAC (and particularly, but not exclusively Cal/Berkeley) would go absolutely apesh*t over the idea of BYU becoming a member.

As for the Big 12, I think there are a number of factors at play. First and foremost is likely UT and OU trying to keep their options open - the more members, the more difficult it would be for them to disentangle themselves from the conference if an attractive option were to present itself. Second, after all the disharmony of the original Big 12, I think there's some thought of having more cohesion in the conference. BYU (as is certainly their right) will not bend their principles just for the sake of conference membership, so there's a certain level of independence that may not be seen as appealing. Third, if WVU is an island to the East, BYU is at least as much of one to the West - if the Big 12 were to expand, it would probably make sense to try to do so in either FL or OH. Finally, what I think was an intriguing if unlikely option of a football-only membership for BYU and Notre Dame (getting both national brands on the table, and increasing the affiliate membership football TV inventory more than one team's worth) is not an option with ND throwing its lot in with the ACC in the geographic areas it prefers.

I've read the same, no way a liberal school like Berkeley let's BYU into the league.

(01-06-2014 07:45 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  BYU also played on Sunday once upon a time, so it wouldn't be unprecedented to rescind the policy. The hangup is that BYU sports were sort of forced to amp up their focus on being a missionary tool for the church in order for the church to invest in the infrastructure of BYU-TV's sports broadcast apparatus. That stronger commitment to the eclesiastical mission was already underway, but I think the church's investment in the indy project was sort of a point of no return for the sports programs and their ability to operate with a little more leniency (which is how things were in the 80's when BYU was good).

Fascinating. Didn't know that but not a shocking revelation given the source.

(01-06-2014 04:44 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  It has been widely rumored/reported that BYUs refusal to play on Sunday is a major stumbling block for the B12. I don't understand that. It's not like they just made it up. It is an integral part of their religious beliefs. Other conferences have accommodated not playing on Sunday. The NCAA even accommodates teams not playing on Sunday. Is it really a big deal if 1 or 2 (#2 being the BYU opponent) teams don't play on Sunday? Is this really an issue for the B12 or is it the issue that seems to get the most publicity?

It has been rumored/reported that BYUs church affiliation would keep them from becoming a member of the PAC. BYUs affiliation has not helped them dominate the WAC or MWC. Why would it keep them out of the PAC? Honestly, I think they would be a mid-tier team in the PAC or B12. I know the PAC is mostly public schools but this seems a bit excessive.

(01-06-2014 06:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Wolfman - It's not the reason why BYU isn't in the Big 12. It might be a convenient excuse for both BYU and the Big 12 to explain why they aren't in the league, but if BYU was clearly going to add more money per school to the Big 12, then they would be added. The MWC offered a full suite of non-revenue sports and they even have some high revenue generating basketball programs like UNLV and SDSU. I heard a lot of complaints from MWC people about BYU on an array of issues, but Sunday play was never one of them. It's a complete red herring - a league that added a total geographic outlier like WVU can easily deal with Sunday play. The only real question is whether BYU (or maybe more importantly, the 12th team what would come with BYU) would bring enough financial heft to the table.

The BYU no Sunday play is just Message board fodder. .

I have never seen nor heard any one from the Big12 say the no Sunday play was an issue. The Big12 moved their basketball tourney finals to Saturday several years ago. Very few if any of the minor sports teams play on Sunday anyway.....maybe baseball rarely.

Maybe this is not important in the overall scheme of things, but BYU seems happy with all its non-football sports in the WCC. Being associated with all private institutions is apparently acceptable with the church. They are midway through year three of indy football/WCC everything else and doesn't look like that will change anytime soon.

There is another factor here. BYU would undoubtedly increase the quality of its recruiting by being a member of a BCS conference. This, combined with the factor that BYU would be playing many of its recruits starting as 20 year olds and finishing as 24 year olds....against kids 18, 19, and 20 years old would give BYU a distinct advantage.

(01-06-2014 06:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Wolfman - It's not the reason why BYU isn't in the Big 12. It might be a convenient excuse for both BYU and the Big 12 to explain why they aren't in the league, but if BYU was clearly going to add more money per school to the Big 12, then they would be added. The MWC offered a full suite of non-revenue sports and they even have some high revenue generating basketball programs like UNLV and SDSU. I heard a lot of complaints from MWC people about BYU on an array of issues, but Sunday play was never one of them. It's a complete red herring - a league that added a total geographic outlier like WVU can easily deal with Sunday play. The only real question is whether BYU (or maybe more importantly, the 12th team what would come with BYU) would bring enough financial heft to the table.

So what's your take on the Big XII's initial replacement plan of BYU/Air Force for NU/CU? I can't imagine TCU or WVU bring any more money than BYU. Maybe now with the league at ten it doesn't make sense, but BYU seemed to be the best candidate early on.

(01-07-2014 01:21 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-06-2014 06:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Wolfman - It's not the reason why BYU isn't in the Big 12. It might be a convenient excuse for both BYU and the Big 12 to explain why they aren't in the league, but if BYU was clearly going to add more money per school to the Big 12, then they would be added. The MWC offered a full suite of non-revenue sports and they even have some high revenue generating basketball programs like UNLV and SDSU. I heard a lot of complaints from MWC people about BYU on an array of issues, but Sunday play was never one of them. It's a complete red herring - a league that added a total geographic outlier like WVU can easily deal with Sunday play. The only real question is whether BYU (or maybe more importantly, the 12th team what would come with BYU) would bring enough financial heft to the table.

So what's your take on the Big XII's initial replacement plan of BYU/Air Force for NU/CU? I can't imagine TCU or WVU bring any more money than BYU. Maybe now with the league at ten it doesn't make sense, but BYU seemed to be the best candidate early on.

That original plan wasn't very well thought out. Neither was their next plan. They should have offered Houston, Louisville, TCU, and WVU bids to go to 12. Louisville is off the boards now.

(01-06-2014 06:36 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-06-2014 04:54 PM)bullet Wrote:  The stories are that it was a problem for Fox. They wanted the flexibility for Sunday play in bb and non-revs.

I thought Fox split Big 12 football with ESPN but that ESPN has basketball to themselves. Did that change? Are we going to see Big 12 hoops on FS1?

(01-06-2014 05:37 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Not allowing Sunday play kills the Olympic scheduling. To save money and preserve the students' schedules, many teams do Friday/Sunday scheduling for away trips, playing two teams. Having a team not play along with that is another problem.

That's overrated. Many leagues, including both the Big 12 and Pac-12, no longer have lockstep Friday and Sunday scheduling for Olympic team sports and there's enough flexibility to play BYU, if they're in the conference, on a Thursday-Saturday or Friday-Saturday pairing or whatever. If the league made enough money by adding BYU, that would be no issue at all.

Thursday-Saturday would work with BYU, but being so isolated from the rest of the Big-12, no way you can do Friday-Saturday with them.

Pac-12 could do it because most of the pair are close to each other - only schools more than 2 hours (by bus) apart are the Washington schools and Utah/Colorado

(01-06-2014 11:55 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(01-06-2014 04:44 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  It has been widely rumored/reported that BYUs refusal to play on Sunday is a major stumbling block for the B12. I don't understand that. It's not like they just made it up. It is an integral part of their religious beliefs. Other conferences have accommodated not playing on Sunday. The NCAA even accommodates teams not playing on Sunday. Is it really a big deal if 1 or 2 (#2 being the BYU opponent) teams don't play on Sunday? Is this really an issue for the B12 or is it the issue that seems to get the most publicity?

It has been rumored/reported that BYUs church affiliation would keep them from becoming a member of the PAC. BYUs affiliation has not helped them dominate the WAC or MWC. Why would it keep them out of the PAC? Honestly, I think they would be a mid-tier team in the PAC or B12. I know the PAC is mostly public schools but this seems a bit excessive.

(01-06-2014 06:09 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Wolfman - It's not the reason why BYU isn't in the Big 12. It might be a convenient excuse for both BYU and the Big 12 to explain why they aren't in the league, but if BYU was clearly going to add more money per school to the Big 12, then they would be added. The MWC offered a full suite of non-revenue sports and they even have some high revenue generating basketball programs like UNLV and SDSU. I heard a lot of complaints from MWC people about BYU on an array of issues, but Sunday play was never one of them. It's a complete red herring - a league that added a total geographic outlier like WVU can easily deal with Sunday play. The only real question is whether BYU (or maybe more importantly, the 12th team what would come with BYU) would bring enough financial heft to the table.

The BYU no Sunday play is just Message board fodder. .

I have never seen nor heard any one from the Big12 say the no Sunday play was an issue. The Big12 moved their basketball tourney finals to Saturday several years ago. Very few if any of the minor sports teams play on Sunday anyway.....maybe baseball rarely.

Pretty much all of the in conference and most of the OOC series are three day affairs on Fri-Sat-Sun.

Even TCU and Baylor play baseball on Sunday