(01-07-2014 12:51 PM)mjs Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 12:42 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 09:47 AM)Robert C Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 01:31 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2014 09:26 PM)LRTrojan Wrote:  Never will forget the time several years ago that I was in Walmart at the same time the hogs were on TV. The checker said "aren't you missing the hog game?" I said no, I'm not a hog fan. She looked at me like I had the plague or something, and said, "you must be a communist." I didn't know whether to laugh or be pissed off.

I was at a visitation for a family member and someone asked me if I was going to watch the pigs game with Miss State in Little Rock a couple days later. I mentioned I was not a pig fan, and I got this strange look followed by. "Oh, you must be family from out of state. Where are you from?

When I responded with "Little Rock" and told her I was an ASU fan, she said "Well you must like to be different then." and walked away.

She was actually offended that I don't cheer for the Razorbacks yet live in Arkansas. I admit, living in Jonesboro for 8 years has me sheltered, I had forgotten about that attitude, because its no longer a problem in NEA.

A week later after the pigs blew the LSU game, I went into a restaurant to eat wearing ASU gear. I was met with a departing watch party, and some elderly gentlemen a couple tables over got offended when he caught me laughing at their struggles, and he began to make loud comments in front of the whole restaurant about how ASU isn't a real team, and how dumb our graduates are, and how we are just wannabe's who will never amount to anything. I ended up with a shouting match with some random 65 year old in the middle of a restaurant. I think his family finally convinced him after a couple minutes of comments asking if the Razorbacks had won an SEC game lately to give it up.

I've been avoiding Little Rock like the plague ever since.

Two critical incidents happened during the 1995 SBC tournament that made me drop Hogism after being a fan of about 15 years: 1) being told to sit down and not join in the UALR chant that the Trojans in Motion were leading by a fellow Sigma Nu alum at the Semifinals game with UNO (not all of them are like that BTW, right ez272?), and 2) hearing a man at the off-campus bookstore groan and sneer about having to find a Trojan gift for his boss who is "a big Trojan fan". I said "you say that as if there's something wrong with it." He just rolled his eyes and said he does not get it. After those two events, I decided that I don't live in AR anymore (I was in grad school in Tulsa, but visiting that week) so I don't have to practice the "faith" anymore. I will root for my Alma Mater like a normal (outside of AR) person and reject the cultural programming. I have my childhood memories of Hog glory to savor, but know that it came at a price, a price I no longer wish to pay. I don't have to be a jerk about it, just don't feel obligated to tone it down or apologize.

What galls me is that now I am a Trojan first, we haven't done much since then to brag about, except Derek Fisher. It seemed back in the late 90's there was a chance. But it never panned out.

Yeah, I remember growing up in hogdom. My grandparents bought me Little Rock Season Tickets every year when I was a kid. I remained a fan for a while, but after I went to ASU I began to discover a lot of Arkansas fans that had ASU or UALR diploma's that would talk down about their alma mater. That, and some nice help from my dislike of Houston Nutt drove me away from the pigs.

I became an ASU fan first at a time when we were mediocre, so I am thrilled obviously to have something to hold over Razorback fans.

ASU is now the only team in the state of Arkansas to win a bowl game in back to back years. I never even stopped to think about that.

Are you saying the pigs have NEVER done this? If this is true the delusions of grandeur among hog faithful may be at close to psychotic proportions. Must be a good time to be an ASU football fan- two straight bowl wins while the hogs have gone 4-8 and 3-9. Can't get much better.

Nope...they have never done it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ar...bowl_games

In fact, Arkansas has never won two consecutive games period...regardless of the time between those games. Their best stretch was a set of games between 76-78 when they won two games and tied one, but the tie came between the two wins.

I knew it had been a while because of how awful Nutt was in bowl games, but I didn't realize it had never happened before.

(01-07-2014 12:55 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 12:51 PM)mjs Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 12:42 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 09:47 AM)Robert C Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 01:31 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  I was at a visitation for a family member and someone asked me if I was going to watch the pigs game with Miss State in Little Rock a couple days later. I mentioned I was not a pig fan, and I got this strange look followed by. "Oh, you must be family from out of state. Where are you from?

When I responded with "Little Rock" and told her I was an ASU fan, she said "Well you must like to be different then." and walked away.

She was actually offended that I don't cheer for the Razorbacks yet live in Arkansas. I admit, living in Jonesboro for 8 years has me sheltered, I had forgotten about that attitude, because its no longer a problem in NEA.

A week later after the pigs blew the LSU game, I went into a restaurant to eat wearing ASU gear. I was met with a departing watch party, and some elderly gentlemen a couple tables over got offended when he caught me laughing at their struggles, and he began to make loud comments in front of the whole restaurant about how ASU isn't a real team, and how dumb our graduates are, and how we are just wannabe's who will never amount to anything. I ended up with a shouting match with some random 65 year old in the middle of a restaurant. I think his family finally convinced him after a couple minutes of comments asking if the Razorbacks had won an SEC game lately to give it up.

I've been avoiding Little Rock like the plague ever since.

Two critical incidents happened during the 1995 SBC tournament that made me drop Hogism after being a fan of about 15 years: 1) being told to sit down and not join in the UALR chant that the Trojans in Motion were leading by a fellow Sigma Nu alum at the Semifinals game with UNO (not all of them are like that BTW, right ez272?), and 2) hearing a man at the off-campus bookstore groan and sneer about having to find a Trojan gift for his boss who is "a big Trojan fan". I said "you say that as if there's something wrong with it." He just rolled his eyes and said he does not get it. After those two events, I decided that I don't live in AR anymore (I was in grad school in Tulsa, but visiting that week) so I don't have to practice the "faith" anymore. I will root for my Alma Mater like a normal (outside of AR) person and reject the cultural programming. I have my childhood memories of Hog glory to savor, but know that it came at a price, a price I no longer wish to pay. I don't have to be a jerk about it, just don't feel obligated to tone it down or apologize.

What galls me is that now I am a Trojan first, we haven't done much since then to brag about, except Derek Fisher. It seemed back in the late 90's there was a chance. But it never panned out.

Yeah, I remember growing up in hogdom. My grandparents bought me Little Rock Season Tickets every year when I was a kid. I remained a fan for a while, but after I went to ASU I began to discover a lot of Arkansas fans that had ASU or UALR diploma's that would talk down about their alma mater. That, and some nice help from my dislike of Houston Nutt drove me away from the pigs.

I became an ASU fan first at a time when we were mediocre, so I am thrilled obviously to have something to hold over Razorback fans.

ASU is now the only team in the state of Arkansas to win a bowl game in back to back years. I never even stopped to think about that.

Are you saying the pigs have NEVER done this? If this is true the delusions of grandeur among hog faithful may be at close to psychotic proportions. Must be a good time to be an ASU football fan- two straight bowl wins while the hogs have gone 4-8 and 3-9. Can't get much better.

Nope...they have never done it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ar...bowl_games

In fact, Arkansas has never won two consecutive games period...regardless of the time between those games. Their best stretch was a set of games between 76-78 when they won two games and tied one, but the tie came between the two wins.

I knew it had been a while because of how awful Nutt was in bowl games, but I didn't realize it had never happened before.

Well, it certainly looks like ASU will hold that distinction for quite awhile, looking at the current state of the hog football program.

I fully understand the hubris and pride from programs such as Ohio State, Oregon, Oklahoma (that's three O's) and Auburn and Alabama (and two A's). They have accomplishments worthy of their attitude. Outside of a disputable 1964 championship in Football and a national championship in men's basketball thirty years later (which was then the beginning of the end of relevance for Basketball), the UAF FB and BB programs have not been in the mix with the above.

Between Barnhill's "one team-one state" doctrine which infected wildly popular media outlets such as KAAY was in the 60's and early 70's (see this video: KAAY piece on youtube) and KATV (the ones who hooked me on basketball) in the years afterward...a belief system emerges and when it comes to beliefs, people can ignore the facts and believe they are awesome if they want. And they do.

(01-07-2014 03:59 PM)Robert C Wrote:  I fully understand the hubris and pride from programs such as Ohio State, Oregon, Oklahoma (that's three O's) and Auburn and Alabama (and two A's). They have accomplishments worthy of their attitude. Outside of a disputable 1964 championship in Football and a national championship in men's basketball thirty years later (which was then the beginning of the end of relevance for Basketball), the UAF FB and BB programs have not been in the mix with the above.

Between Barnhill's "one team-one state" doctrine which infected wildly popular media outlets such as KAAY was in the 60's and early 70's (see this video: KAAY piece on youtube) and KATV (the ones who hooked me on basketball) in the years afterward...a belief system emerges and when it comes to beliefs, people can ignore the facts and believe they are awesome if they want. And they do.

On the main conference board we call that "ULL Syndrome"

ASU, UALR, and to a lesser extend of UCA, have been fighting the UAF doctrine for 50 years. Heck, there was a near riot in Jonesboro when Yarnell's tried to save itself from bankruptcy by using "One team, one state, one ice cream" when advertising for the Pigs (Didn't work)

The fact is that it is going to take a lot of the older razorback fans dying off to even give us a shot at ever getting rid of the crazy doctoring.

Until then, we'll have to settle for Twitter wars between Jeff Long and the ASU fan base.

(01-07-2014 05:00 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 03:59 PM)Robert C Wrote:  I fully understand the hubris and pride from programs such as Ohio State, Oregon, Oklahoma (that's three O's) and Auburn and Alabama (and two A's). They have accomplishments worthy of their attitude. Outside of a disputable 1964 championship in Football and a national championship in men's basketball thirty years later (which was then the beginning of the end of relevance for Basketball), the UAF FB and BB programs have not been in the mix with the above.

Between Barnhill's "one team-one state" doctrine which infected wildly popular media outlets such as KAAY was in the 60's and early 70's (see this video: KAAY piece on youtube) and KATV (the ones who hooked me on basketball) in the years afterward...a belief system emerges and when it comes to beliefs, people can ignore the facts and believe they are awesome if they want. And they do.

On the main conference board we call that "ULL Syndrome"

ASU, UALR, and to a lesser extend of UCA, have been fighting the UAF doctrine for 50 years. Heck, there was a near riot in Jonesboro when Yarnell's tried to save itself from bankruptcy by using "One team, one state, one ice cream" when advertising for the Pigs (Didn't work)

The fact is that it is going to take a lot of the older razorback fans dying off to even give us a shot at ever getting rid of the crazy doctoring.

Until then, we'll have to settle for Twitter wars between Jeff Long and the ASU fan base.

I thought when Broyes retired, the policy of not playing in state teams would change. Still hasn't, and maybe won't until legislature demands it, and it's unlikely that's going to happen for awhile. if ever.

(01-07-2014 05:12 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:00 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 03:59 PM)Robert C Wrote:  I fully understand the hubris and pride from programs such as Ohio State, Oregon, Oklahoma (that's three O's) and Auburn and Alabama (and two A's). They have accomplishments worthy of their attitude. Outside of a disputable 1964 championship in Football and a national championship in men's basketball thirty years later (which was then the beginning of the end of relevance for Basketball), the UAF FB and BB programs have not been in the mix with the above.

Between Barnhill's "one team-one state" doctrine which infected wildly popular media outlets such as KAAY was in the 60's and early 70's (see this video: KAAY piece on youtube) and KATV (the ones who hooked me on basketball) in the years afterward...a belief system emerges and when it comes to beliefs, people can ignore the facts and believe they are awesome if they want. And they do.

On the main conference board we call that "ULL Syndrome"

ASU, UALR, and to a lesser extend of UCA, have been fighting the UAF doctrine for 50 years. Heck, there was a near riot in Jonesboro when Yarnell's tried to save itself from bankruptcy by using "One team, one state, one ice cream" when advertising for the Pigs (Didn't work)

The fact is that it is going to take a lot of the older razorback fans dying off to even give us a shot at ever getting rid of the crazy doctoring.

Until then, we'll have to settle for Twitter wars between Jeff Long and the ASU fan base.

I thought when Broyes retired, the policy of not playing in state teams would change. Still hasn't, and maybe won't until legislature demands it, and it's unlikely that's going to happen for awhile. if ever.

ASU has more control of the house and senate than ever before, and we still have the Governor's mansion. But right now the group seems unwilling to touch such an animal because it would cause all sorts of problems.

I think eventually the state will force the matchup, and that's when the in state policy dies for Arkansas athletics. However, I do not think that will happen until there are enough UALR, UCA, and ASU fans out there to actually put pressure on the legislature to do it.

Right now we're just happy to not have UAF attempting to push the legislature into cutting our funding again, or trying to force another stupid pro UAF bill through.

(01-07-2014 05:16 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:12 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:00 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 03:59 PM)Robert C Wrote:  I fully understand the hubris and pride from programs such as Ohio State, Oregon, Oklahoma (that's three O's) and Auburn and Alabama (and two A's). They have accomplishments worthy of their attitude. Outside of a disputable 1964 championship in Football and a national championship in men's basketball thirty years later (which was then the beginning of the end of relevance for Basketball), the UAF FB and BB programs have not been in the mix with the above.

Between Barnhill's "one team-one state" doctrine which infected wildly popular media outlets such as KAAY was in the 60's and early 70's (see this video: KAAY piece on youtube) and KATV (the ones who hooked me on basketball) in the years afterward...a belief system emerges and when it comes to beliefs, people can ignore the facts and believe they are awesome if they want. And they do.

On the main conference board we call that "ULL Syndrome"

ASU, UALR, and to a lesser extend of UCA, have been fighting the UAF doctrine for 50 years. Heck, there was a near riot in Jonesboro when Yarnell's tried to save itself from bankruptcy by using "One team, one state, one ice cream" when advertising for the Pigs (Didn't work)

The fact is that it is going to take a lot of the older razorback fans dying off to even give us a shot at ever getting rid of the crazy doctoring.

Until then, we'll have to settle for Twitter wars between Jeff Long and the ASU fan base.

I thought when Broyes retired, the policy of not playing in state teams would change. Still hasn't, and maybe won't until legislature demands it, and it's unlikely that's going to happen for awhile. if ever.

ASU has more control of the house and senate than ever before, and we still have the Governor's mansion. But right now the group seems unwilling to touch such an animal because it would cause all sorts of problems.

I think eventually the state will force the matchup, and that's when the in state policy dies for Arkansas athletics. However, I do not think that will happen until there are enough UALR, UCA, and ASU fans out there to actually put pressure on the legislature to do it.

Right now we're just happy to not have UAF attempting to push the legislature into cutting our funding again, or trying to force another stupid pro UAF bill through.

Or trying to shut down UALR athletics back in the Newell days. How any UALR fan, who was around at that time, can continue to support UAF athletics is beyond me. You know better than me the measures UAF has taken, over the years, to try and hurt ASU.

(01-07-2014 05:53 PM)mjs Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:16 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:12 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:00 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 03:59 PM)Robert C Wrote:  I fully understand the hubris and pride from programs such as Ohio State, Oregon, Oklahoma (that's three O's) and Auburn and Alabama (and two A's). They have accomplishments worthy of their attitude. Outside of a disputable 1964 championship in Football and a national championship in men's basketball thirty years later (which was then the beginning of the end of relevance for Basketball), the UAF FB and BB programs have not been in the mix with the above.

Between Barnhill's "one team-one state" doctrine which infected wildly popular media outlets such as KAAY was in the 60's and early 70's (see this video: KAAY piece on youtube) and KATV (the ones who hooked me on basketball) in the years afterward...a belief system emerges and when it comes to beliefs, people can ignore the facts and believe they are awesome if they want. And they do.

On the main conference board we call that "ULL Syndrome"

ASU, UALR, and to a lesser extend of UCA, have been fighting the UAF doctrine for 50 years. Heck, there was a near riot in Jonesboro when Yarnell's tried to save itself from bankruptcy by using "One team, one state, one ice cream" when advertising for the Pigs (Didn't work)

The fact is that it is going to take a lot of the older razorback fans dying off to even give us a shot at ever getting rid of the crazy doctoring.

Until then, we'll have to settle for Twitter wars between Jeff Long and the ASU fan base.

I thought when Broyes retired, the policy of not playing in state teams would change. Still hasn't, and maybe won't until legislature demands it, and it's unlikely that's going to happen for awhile. if ever.

ASU has more control of the house and senate than ever before, and we still have the Governor's mansion. But right now the group seems unwilling to touch such an animal because it would cause all sorts of problems.

I think eventually the state will force the matchup, and that's when the in state policy dies for Arkansas athletics. However, I do not think that will happen until there are enough UALR, UCA, and ASU fans out there to actually put pressure on the legislature to do it.

Right now we're just happy to not have UAF attempting to push the legislature into cutting our funding again, or trying to force another stupid pro UAF bill through.

Or trying to shut down UALR athletics back in the Newell days. How any UALR fan, who was around at that time, can continue to support UAF athletics is beyond me. You know better than me the measures UAF has taken, over the years, to try and hurt ASU.

I asked that once to a UALR grad who was a razorback fan a while back. He didn't seem to have any idea that it happened, and didn't believe me.

Of course, when I first started at ASU, I didn't believe the UAF had tried to destroy us either, till I went online and to the Library. and found the actual articles about what happened.

Since Gov. Beebe is an ASU Alum I thought in his 2nd Term he might at least suggest competition between UA and ASU and maybe other in-state schools. But for what ever reason he didn't mention it. At least not openly. Could be ASU may not view it as that important anymore.

Also I noticed ASU got a lot of publicity for their bowl game. It was the only game Sunday and throughout the day ESPN announced the game at the bottom of the screen.

(01-07-2014 10:49 PM)DollarBill Wrote:  Since Gov. Beebe is an ASU Alum I thought in his 2nd Term he might at least suggest competition between UA and ASU and maybe other in-state schools. But for what ever reason he didn't mention it. At least not openly. Could be ASU may not view it as that important anymore.

Also I noticed ASU got a lot of publicity for their bowl game. It was the only game Sunday and throughout the day ESPN announced the game at the bottom of the screen.

Playing Arkansas is more of a lip service by the ASU administration to remind them that we are still interested... Beebe is probably the 4th most important person at ASU behind the AD, Chancellor, and President, and I am guessing that we've told him we don't want the legislature to force anything

The last time this came close to passing, it ended with UAF pushing a funding bill through that was designed to hurt ASU athletics. We have no interest in drawing their ire.

The truth is we get much more press playing lip service. Malzahn got a ton of press in 2012 when he publicly admitted he called Arkansas and asked for a game. That's what we prefer. Asking, and forcing Arkansas to say no, then blaming them in the media.

(01-07-2014 06:02 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:53 PM)mjs Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:16 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:12 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:00 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  On the main conference board we call that "ULL Syndrome"

ASU, UALR, and to a lesser extend of UCA, have been fighting the UAF doctrine for 50 years. Heck, there was a near riot in Jonesboro when Yarnell's tried to save itself from bankruptcy by using "One team, one state, one ice cream" when advertising for the Pigs (Didn't work)

The fact is that it is going to take a lot of the older razorback fans dying off to even give us a shot at ever getting rid of the crazy doctoring.

Until then, we'll have to settle for Twitter wars between Jeff Long and the ASU fan base.

I thought when Broyes retired, the policy of not playing in state teams would change. Still hasn't, and maybe won't until legislature demands it, and it's unlikely that's going to happen for awhile. if ever.

ASU has more control of the house and senate than ever before, and we still have the Governor's mansion. But right now the group seems unwilling to touch such an animal because it would cause all sorts of problems.

I think eventually the state will force the matchup, and that's when the in state policy dies for Arkansas athletics. However, I do not think that will happen until there are enough UALR, UCA, and ASU fans out there to actually put pressure on the legislature to do it.

Right now we're just happy to not have UAF attempting to push the legislature into cutting our funding again, or trying to force another stupid pro UAF bill through.

Or trying to shut down UALR athletics back in the Newell days. How any UALR fan, who was around at that time, can continue to support UAF athletics is beyond me. You know better than me the measures UAF has taken, over the years, to try and hurt ASU.

I asked that once to a UALR grad who was a razorback fan a while back. He didn't seem to have any idea that it happened, and didn't believe me.

Of course, when I first started at ASU, I didn't believe the UAF had tried to destroy us either, till I went online and to the Library. and found the actual articles about what happened.

Where did you find the articles online?

(01-08-2014 12:20 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  The truth is we get much more press playing lip service. Malzahn got a ton of press in 2012 when he publicly admitted he called Arkansas and asked for a game. That's what we prefer. Asking, and forcing Arkansas to say no, then blaming them in the media.

Wasn't there some state though that the state legislature forced the schools to play?

(01-08-2014 10:13 AM)LRTrojan Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 12:20 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  The truth is we get much more press playing lip service. Malzahn got a ton of press in 2012 when he publicly admitted he called Arkansas and asked for a game. That's what we prefer. Asking, and forcing Arkansas to say no, then blaming them in the media.

Wasn't there some state though that the state legislature forced the schools to play?

Yes. May have been Kentucky, but I'm not really sure.

(01-08-2014 10:18 AM)mjs Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 10:13 AM)LRTrojan Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 12:20 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  The truth is we get much more press playing lip service. Malzahn got a ton of press in 2012 when he publicly admitted he called Arkansas and asked for a game. That's what we prefer. Asking, and forcing Arkansas to say no, then blaming them in the media.

Wasn't there some state though that the state legislature forced the schools to play?

Yes. May have been Kentucky, but I'm not really sure.

I read or heard somewhere that Auburn and Alabama didn't play for years until the legislature forced their hand, and was going to force them to play, so before they were forced, they went ahead and did it on their own. This was obviously many years ago.

(01-08-2014 10:04 AM)outsideualr Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 06:02 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:53 PM)mjs Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:16 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  

(01-07-2014 05:12 PM)outsideualr Wrote:  I thought when Broyes retired, the policy of not playing in state teams would change. Still hasn't, and maybe won't until legislature demands it, and it's unlikely that's going to happen for awhile. if ever.

ASU has more control of the house and senate than ever before, and we still have the Governor's mansion. But right now the group seems unwilling to touch such an animal because it would cause all sorts of problems.

I think eventually the state will force the matchup, and that's when the in state policy dies for Arkansas athletics. However, I do not think that will happen until there are enough UALR, UCA, and ASU fans out there to actually put pressure on the legislature to do it.

Right now we're just happy to not have UAF attempting to push the legislature into cutting our funding again, or trying to force another stupid pro UAF bill through.

Or trying to shut down UALR athletics back in the Newell days. How any UALR fan, who was around at that time, can continue to support UAF athletics is beyond me. You know better than me the measures UAF has taken, over the years, to try and hurt ASU.

I asked that once to a UALR grad who was a razorback fan a while back. He didn't seem to have any idea that it happened, and didn't believe me.

Of course, when I first started at ASU, I didn't believe the UAF had tried to destroy us either, till I went online and to the Library. and found the actual articles about what happened.

Where did you find the articles online?

Arkstfan had a copy at one point. I think he still does.

(01-08-2014 10:13 AM)LRTrojan Wrote:  

(01-08-2014 12:20 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  The truth is we get much more press playing lip service. Malzahn got a ton of press in 2012 when he publicly admitted he called Arkansas and asked for a game. That's what we prefer. Asking, and forcing Arkansas to say no, then blaming them in the media.

Wasn't there some state though that the state legislature forced the schools to play?

Alabama is the most notorious one. It took Auburn years to get a game out of a Bama, much less a home game.

I think there are others, but I don't have the energy to look it up.