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Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
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Tigermaniac Offline
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Post: #1
Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
I posted this in the game thread, but not sure it'll get seen. Just wanted some others thoughts on this. It's not a bash 03-razz.


Not a bash but it seems to me that Josh mismanages his team and games quite a bit. When the 3/4 guards are on it looks good, when 1-2/4 guards is on it looks really bad. I don't blame Josh for his players playing good or bad, but what I do blame Josh for is continuing to go with what isn't working. Some teams will hurt us BIG time if we play SMALL ball. Unless we are hitting 9-10 threes a game playing small is gonna hurt us against teams like Cincy.

It would have benefited us imo to play bigger today. Here's an example of what I am talking about.

What did he do with Angel Garcia? He was a 7 foot SF that was forced to play inside. He is doing the same thing with King. King is not a 4, he has never been a 4. He forces him to play the 4 against players who have played the 4. Who honestly expects him to come in and play to his full potential. King is a 2/3 let him play his position.

At the beginning of the season we were all excited about this team. Not many of us expected Josh to play small and stay small throughout the duration of a season.

We for the most part in our losses have put ourselves in bad situations. Last season we played 6'4 1/2 DJ at the 4 and it hurt us a lot defensively he got some good blocks and did a lot of good things but he was man handled inside. So what does Josh do? He put's a 6'4 player in that position by going small. A 6'4 player who doesn't have the quickness, the blocking ability or the hops that DJ had.

Instead of a lineup of:

Joe Jackson- 6'0
Michael Dixon- 6'1
Geron Johnson- 6'3
Chris Crawford- 6'4
Then Either Shaq/Pellom-6'9/6'7

What is so wrong with going bigger? Why does he refuse to do it? Did he promise the guards 25-30 minutes each and doesn't wanna break his promise or something? When 3/4 guards combine to go 8-36 we might need to change it up lol. We have had several games that have been much closer then they should have been because of this. We got Rolled @ Oklahoma State because our guards played Hero ball and Smart and that team went off. It didn't help that again our guards were a combined 10/50 or something crazy.

Against Florida Prather a 6'6 WING, scored the last 8 points for Florida by getting the ball and going OVER his guard defender. For the record I know we were in a position to win the game at the end but ONLY because Florida missed free throws.

I don't wanna hear facts against BAD teams. You can out athlete, and out talent most bad teams.

LSU who won us the game?
Oklahoma State Old Spice Classic rematch, who won us the game?

If you notice it'll be either Shaq and Nichols and 2 guards. Not all of the guards.

Our guards are not consistent enough to all be out there at the same time. Joe Jackson has been the ONLY one. Geron can have a good game, Crawford can have a good game, Dixon can have a good game. It will be rare for all of them to have good games at the same time. So why play them at the same time? It doesn't make any sense. He is creating HIS own problems and creating his own mismatch problems for opposing teams to take advantage of.

Again King is a 2/3. He is forced to play the 4 and it hurts us and it's a position he is not comfortable with. He shouldn't be playing there.

1. Jackson/Crawford
2. Geron/Dixon
3. King/Iverson/Wilson
4. Pellom/Nichols
5. Shaq/Woodson

We do not take advantage of our depth, we do not take advantage of our overall size, we create our own problems.

If you have this:

1. Crawford- 6'4
2. Geron- 6'3
3. King 6'7
4. Pellom 6'7
5. Shaq 6'9

Do you really honestly believe we'd have problems defending inside or rebounding?

Or how about this.

1. Jackson 6'1
2. Dixon 6'2
3. King 6'7
4. Nichols 6'8
5. Shaq 6'9

Or there?

You can mix and match it anyway you want too. We pulled out the rebounds today why? Because the 2 bigs we did have in the game got like 5 in 1 possession. Also we kept tapping it out so our guards were able to get a few more. We did not dominate inside to get those boards. We were limited to 1 shot per trip far to often and then gave up easy offense to Cincy on the other side. Due to what? WIDE OPEN Threes or EASY inside baskets.

We need to start using our advantages.

6'7 King - Guard/Wing
6'10 Iverson- Guard/Wing
6'6 Wilson- Guard/Wing
Nichols 6'8 -Forward- Most skilled offensive big. Needs to work on defense but he really can take over a game. He doesn't even play much anymore.

We are not using these guys right and we are not taking advantage of our opportunities.

On games where 3 of our 4 guards are hot, we're going to win. How often has that happened though? AGAINST REAL competition?

This is not meant to be a bash. This is meant to maybe get some sort of understanding from everyone else on why this is the way we play? Anything valid? Any facts you can give to support playing 3-4 guards?

Villanova is the only team in the last 10 years that I remember that played a 4 guard set and actually did something. They went to the Elite 8 as a matter of fact. Thing is all 4 of those guards went to the NBA and 3 of them still play in the NBA.

I understand some of our new players have issues, but I haven't seen any to the effect that they were fall asleep that much on defense and go 2-12 from the field or 1-10, 1-11 etc.. Josh has a TEAM full of good players. You don't have to play 10 a game but if your 4 Senior guards aren't playing well why keep them in? If 2-3 of them are playing like ass it's ok to go away from it and try something else.

Again don;t get butthurt this isn't a bash. I would love some good discussion on this, or for someone who see's something other then what I do.

Thanks,
01-04-2014 03:31 PM
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rath v2.0 Online
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Post: #2
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
I am not sure your coaches did a very good job of watching tape on UC. Quality bigs wear UC out. Not guards. All of our "bigs" are really just long, athletic SFs who can switch and cover most guards on the perimeter. Going small was perfect for UC's defensive scheme.

Also allowed us to keep our 2 freshman guards on the court a lot more than normal.

Mix in the call to pick UC up full court which we love because of the easy scoring opportunities, and that was the story of the second half.
01-04-2014 03:38 PM
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rws71 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
Everyone knows that you are right as rain!!!
01-04-2014 03:42 PM
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GAmogul Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
spot on. it's a strange mystery
01-04-2014 03:44 PM
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jgardne Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
Pastner has some deep seated bias against playing big. He's done it now for 5 years, perpetually going small and often not playing 2 bigs at the same time. The argument used to be we didn't have 2 quality bigs but now we have 3 at least. I honestly wonder if, given the 08 team he'd play Rose, antonio, combo kemp/allen, and CDR all 30 minutes while making dozier and dorsey split time at the 5.

He has an aversion to playing a conventional lineup and a mortal fear of playing big (JJ, Chris, King/Iverson, Nichols, Shaq anyone?)
01-04-2014 03:44 PM
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jgardne Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
(01-04-2014 03:38 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I am not sure your coaches did a very good job of watching tape on UC. Quality bigs wear UC out. Not guards. All of our "bigs" are really just long, athletic SFs who can switch and cover most guards on the perimeter. Going small was perfect for UC's defensive scheme.

Also allowed us to keep our 2 freshman guards on the court a lot more than normal.

Mix in the call to pick UC up full court which we love because of the easy scoring opportunities, and that was the story of the second half.

it's always reassuring when an opposing fan tells you your coach's gameplan was the perfect plan to let said team beat you.
01-04-2014 03:45 PM
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T-County Tiger Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
Going to small ball in the second half and staying with the full court "press" killed us. Did we even cause a turnover in the 2nd half off the press? This was a really poorly coached game by Pastner. I can't understand why he want away from his game plan in the 2nd half. We will never do well playing 4 guards for extended periods of time. Didn't Pastner learn anything in the wins over OSU and LSU? The offense must flow through the bigs (Shaq and Austin.) That is not possible with 4 guards on the floor.

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01-04-2014 03:53 PM
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Brother Bluto Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
It was a one point game at the half and Nichols was benched.
01-04-2014 04:08 PM
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Tanyaskees Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
(01-04-2014 04:08 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  It was a one point game at the half and Nichols was benched.

Doesn't make any sense. I would love to ask Pastner what his logic behind that is.
01-04-2014 04:10 PM
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Brother Bluto Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
(01-04-2014 04:10 PM)Tanyaskees Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 04:08 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  It was a one point game at the half and Nichols was benched.

Doesn't make any sense. I would love to ask Pastner what his logic behind that is.

I'm really starting to think he don't like tall people.



#napoleaonic
01-04-2014 04:19 PM
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Dat.B.Me Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
(01-04-2014 04:19 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 04:10 PM)Tanyaskees Wrote:  
(01-04-2014 04:08 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  It was a one point game at the half and Nichols was benched.

Doesn't make any sense. I would love to ask Pastner what his logic behind that is.

I'm really starting to think he don't like tall people.
#napoleaonic
01-05-2014 09:21 AM
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Dat.B.Me Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
(01-04-2014 04:08 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  It was a one point game at the half and Nichols was benched.
01-05-2014 09:22 AM
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Dat.B.Me Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
Lets face it Pastner wants to play fast and small....I just want to win. There are enough weapons to have played a slower pace game and smash Cincy in the Mouth with a bigger line-up. Instead we chose to stay small and lose. At times they would triple team the post early and we couldnot find the open man. Did we stay with that line up long enough to expose that? Nope.... We have 2 strong victories OKST and LSU and it was because of strong post play
01-05-2014 09:34 AM
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Brother Bluto Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
You can play fast without being small. We did from 06-09. A 6-6 guy has a chance against a 6-8 guy. A 6-2/6-3 guy dont
01-05-2014 09:56 AM
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Dat.B.Me Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
(01-05-2014 09:56 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  You can play fast without being small. We did from 06-09. A 6-6 guy has a chance against a 6-8 guy. A 6-2/6-3 guy dont

Agree but we are trying to play faster than back then says Pastner. I would love us playing bigger but the coach seems to think the 4 kings is the wayto NCAA riches.
(This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 10:04 AM by Dat.B.Me.)
01-05-2014 10:03 AM
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lenetzach Offline
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Post: #16
Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand l
Y'all are inflating the time of "small ball" in your minds.

8 minutes total of small ball yesterday, not all at one stretch, that was broken up in several different segments.

I'm not a big proponent of small ball, and don't think it should be played a lot, but I'm ok with it as a change up. All il saying is that in reality it was not more than 20% of the game, and that it didn't negatively affect the trajectory of the game.

I understand wishing something turned out differently.

But to act like the primary lineup was small or like it changed the flow of this game is not accurate.

Analysis and critique are good, but only useful when kept in proper relation to what actually happened.
01-05-2014 10:24 AM
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Brother Bluto Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
(01-05-2014 10:24 AM)lenetzach Wrote:  Y'all are inflating the time of "small ball" in your minds.

8 minutes total of small ball yesterday, not all at one stretch, that was broken up in several different segments.

I'm not a big proponent of small ball, and don't think it should be played a lot, but I'm ok with it as a change up. All il saying is that in reality it was not more than 20% of the game, and that it didn't negatively affect the trajectory of the game.

I understand wishing something turned out differently.

But to act like the primary lineup was small or like it changed the flow of this game is not accurate.

Analysis and critique are good, but only useful when kept in proper relation to what actually happened.

8 minutes is a long time in a basketball game.
01-05-2014 10:28 AM
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TigerBill Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
Direct response to the OP's first post.

I said yesterday that I don't think Josh has a clear idea what he wants from this team. If you're going to play 4 guards then you have to speed up the tempo regardless of consequences, press, press, channel your Paul Westhead and outrun the other guy. Setting up in half court with 4 guards against a bigger, better defensive team is asking for trouble.

Or, go traditional, C, PF, SF, SG, PG. I realize the 3 spot is somewhat troubling for us, but still.

I'm no expert so if I'm wrong please tell me why. But it seems like CJP is trying to do both with the same lineup.
01-05-2014 10:37 AM
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450bench Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
(01-05-2014 10:37 AM)TigerBill Wrote:  Direct response to the OP's first post.

I said yesterday that I don't think Josh has a clear idea what he wants from this team. If you're going to play 4 guards then you have to speed up the tempo regardless of consequences, press, press, channel your Paul Westhead and outrun the other guy. Setting up in half court with 4 guards against a bigger, better defensive team is asking for trouble.

Or, go traditional, C, PF, SF, SG, PG. I realize the 3 spot is somewhat troubling for us, but still.

I'm no expert so if I'm wrong please tell me why. But it seems like CJP is trying to do both with the same lineup.

Good post.
01-05-2014 10:40 AM
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blutgr39 Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Small ball and players playing out of position discussion. Help me understand lol.
I don't like small ball either. The only reason I can see not playing King at the 3 is Josh feels he is totally not ready. Wilson certainly isn't the answer there. Iverson at the 3? no way. It was a one point game at the half with Nichols playing. Unless there is something the public doesn't know Ciny game was some strange coaching. Unless something changes soon... we may not make the NCAA's. GTG
01-05-2014 10:41 AM
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