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New OC for Owl football
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d1owls4life Offline
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Post: #21
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 10:45 AM)talon owl Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 10:10 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  Two, you want to know why he made that choice? More than likely, he didn't have the budget to make any other choice.

This is such a load of crap and I've confronted you on this before.

We just had our highest paid assistant leave, right? His salary and any other comp were vacated. That amount of comp (and conceivably more now with likely overall staff raises) is now available to be allocated (assuming the same budget). That is more than enough money to go out and hire someone from the outside. No, we won't be able to lure an OC from a BCS program, but certainly could entertain a BCS position coach, non-BCS coordinator, highschool head coach or coordinator, etc.

If Bailiff has already made up his mind or is even already strong leaning towards Edmondson then there was never a legitimate effort to consider outside candidates, which would be very disappointing and all on DB.

Haven't heard of any "likely" staff raises.

Not sure if Reagan was our highest paid or not. Possible that he was but that could be Thurmond or hell even Patterson since he has the assistant head coach title.

Look, if Edmondson is the guy, I question the move as well. I have no idea if we even looked outside Rice at all. We will probably never know that, which makes it difficult to know what our options were. I would think there would be better ones, but I can't be sure of it.
01-02-2014 11:00 AM
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Philoso-Owl Offline
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Post: #22
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 10:48 AM)Antarius Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 10:45 AM)talon owl Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 10:10 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  Two, you want to know why he made that choice? More than likely, he didn't have the budget to make any other choice.

This is such a load of crap and I've confronted you on this before.

We just had our highest paid assistant leave, right? His salary and any other comp were vacated. That amount of comp (and conceivably more now with likely overall staff raises) is now available to be allocated (assuming the same budget). That is more than enough money to go out and hire someone from the outside. No, we won't be able to lure an OC from a BCS program, but certainly could entertain a BCS position coach, non-BCS coordinator, highschool head coach or coordinator, etc.

Additionally, did we even try to find someone else? The timeline seems so short that I cannot imagine we did an exhaustive search.

As for Edmonson, the apprehension is not based on the bowl game only. Our QB play has been far short of stellar and we have seem limited improvement from year to year.

These appeared while I was writing my post, but a big +1
01-02-2014 11:01 AM
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addickesowl Offline
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Post: #23
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 10:48 AM)Antarius Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 10:45 AM)talon owl Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 10:10 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  Two, you want to know why he made that choice? More than likely, he didn't have the budget to make any other choice.

This is such a load of crap and I've confronted you on this before.

We just had our highest paid assistant leave, right? His salary and any other comp were vacated. That amount of comp (and conceivably more now with likely overall staff raises) is now available to be allocated (assuming the same budget). That is more than enough money to go out and hire someone from the outside. No, we won't be able to lure an OC from a BCS program, but certainly could entertain a BCS position coach, non-BCS coordinator, highschool head coach or coordinator, etc.

Additionally, did we even try to find someone else? The timeline seems so short that I cannot imagine we did an exhaustive search.

As for Edmonson, the apprehension is not based on the bowl game only. Our QB play has been far short of stellar and we have seem limited improvement from year to year.

We should look in our
own backyard...Karl Dorrell Texans QB coach...probably will be available,lots of offensive experience .Dr K may know him from his PAC 10 days
01-02-2014 11:07 AM
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d1owls4life Offline
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Post: #24
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 10:58 AM)Philoso-Owl Wrote:  Edmondson's record developing McHargue leaves a lot to be desired, and that audition as OC was a complete failure, not so much because of the score as such, but because of the total lack of ability shown to react to a defense and make smart play calls.

I flat-out 100% refuse to believe we need to spend any more money anywhere to get a much better level of performance than that. We may need to dip down into lower football ranks to find someone who has shown potential and would love to come to our D1 job, but it can be done. I'm not opposed to the team spending more money on coaching staff and facilities -- it would be a good thing to do so -- but continuing to hear it offered as a big excuse for atrocious coaching is getting very old and just isn't true IMHO.

I'm a bit confused. You refuse to believe we need to spend any more money to get a better performance, but then you are ok to spending more money on the coaching staff and facilities?
01-02-2014 11:07 AM
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Mademen Offline
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Post: #25
RE: New OC for Owl football
I know nothing about the coach in question, but judging anyone off the game with Miss State seems a little unfair. Texas A&M and LSU were the only schools that had any consistent success against the Bulldogs this year. That includes some pretty damn good offenses in Auburn and Alabama. It is impossible to simulate the difference in line play coming from CUSA to an SEC team. Rice got outmanned more so than they got out schemed IMO.
01-02-2014 11:14 AM
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Post: #26
RE: New OC for Owl football
Agree, but if you evaluate Edmondson on his previous OC work, where his offenses were abysmal, and his duties at Rice, where our passing game and QB development have been a mess, te same conclusion is reached.
01-02-2014 11:17 AM
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Philoso-Owl Offline
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Post: #27
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 11:07 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 10:58 AM)Philoso-Owl Wrote:  Edmondson's record developing McHargue leaves a lot to be desired, and that audition as OC was a complete failure, not so much because of the score as such, but because of the total lack of ability shown to react to a defense and make smart play calls.

I flat-out 100% refuse to believe we need to spend any more money anywhere to get a much better level of performance than that. We may need to dip down into lower football ranks to find someone who has shown potential and would love to come to our D1 job, but it can be done. I'm not opposed to the team spending more money on coaching staff and facilities -- it would be a good thing to do so -- but continuing to hear it offered as a big excuse for atrocious coaching is getting very old and just isn't true IMHO.

I'm a bit confused. You refuse to believe we need to spend any more money to get a better performance, but then you are ok to spending more money on the coaching staff and facilities?

Yes. Not spending more is not an excuse that justifies the level of performance we've seen from some of our coaches and coordinators. Additionally, spending more money on the football team could help the program in some important ways.

(01-02-2014 11:17 AM)At Ease Wrote:  Agree, but if you evaluate Edmondson on his previous OC work, where his offenses were abysmal, and his duties at Rice, where our passing game and QB development have been a mess, the same conclusion is reached.

+1.
01-02-2014 11:21 AM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #28
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 11:14 AM)Mademen Wrote:  I know nothing about the coach in question, but judging anyone off the game with Miss State seems a little unfair. Texas A&M and LSU were the only schools that had any consistent success against the Bulldogs this year. That includes some pretty damn good offenses in Auburn and Alabama. It is impossible to simulate the difference in line play coming from CUSA to an SEC team. Rice got outmanned more so than they got out schemed IMO.

And we knew we were outmanned physically and athletically on the lines going in. Consequently, the game calling and schemes should have compensated for that...and, certainly, we should have made some in-game adjustments. Our game calling was as predictable as it was conservative and, IMO, we all but gave up by early in the 3Q. (When you're down by 20+ points with less than a half remaining, you don't call a direct RB handoff up the middle on 1st down for 3 consecutive series (as Edmondson did). As has been the case all year long, the aggressiveness and imagination in our offensive play calling ended after the first 3 series (and 15 or so plays) of the game. (I think we had 2 first downs the final three quarters of the game.) We had an early successful 20-yard completion to Cella over the middle on our second series again, yet not another pass was targetted to Cella the rest of the game. Again, deja vu all over again. Hardly any short or intermediate passing routes over the middle-- to take advantage of MSU loading the box against the run and allow McHargue to beat the pressure. Sound familiar?

Again, we knew going in we were going to be badly outmanned in the trenches, yet we didn't prepare a game plan to counter that and give ourselves a chance.
01-02-2014 11:25 AM
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d1owls4life Offline
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Post: #29
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 11:17 AM)At Ease Wrote:  Agree, but if you evaluate Edmondson on his previous OC work, where his offenses were abysmal, and his duties at Rice, where our passing game and QB development have been a mess, te same conclusion is reached.

I guess my question about his previous stops is how bad were those teams period. I know those SMU teams just weren't very good and ULL had just come up from I-AA and was an IA Independent until his last year, when they joined the Sun Belt.

But yeah, agree about his time at Rice for sure.
01-02-2014 11:29 AM
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Vegas Owl Offline
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Post: #30
RE: New OC for Owl football
all below IMHO…so much to say and not enough time to type it all.

Coach Edmondson should not only be judged by his development of Taylor McH (or lack thereof), but also of DJ and the fleeting glimpses of of Jeremy Eddington. No better than average, at best.

This selection is not final yet, but I believe that Coach Bailiff should be judged by his selection of this OC and corresponding staff. With the loss of a 4 year starter, the QB selection/development/recruiting is going to be a critical element to the further success of this team. Do we really want to see the QB fiasco of the inter Chase and Taylor period arise again? 03-banghead

To be fair, Coach Edmondson was not around for that debacle, but the momentum of this program must be sustained for reasons which are obvious to everyone on this board. We are getting there on defense, it will be the lack of offensive success that will keep us down.
01-02-2014 11:30 AM
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d1owls4life Offline
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Post: #31
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 11:21 AM)Philoso-Owl Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 11:07 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 10:58 AM)Philoso-Owl Wrote:  Edmondson's record developing McHargue leaves a lot to be desired, and that audition as OC was a complete failure, not so much because of the score as such, but because of the total lack of ability shown to react to a defense and make smart play calls.

I flat-out 100% refuse to believe we need to spend any more money anywhere to get a much better level of performance than that. We may need to dip down into lower football ranks to find someone who has shown potential and would love to come to our D1 job, but it can be done. I'm not opposed to the team spending more money on coaching staff and facilities -- it would be a good thing to do so -- but continuing to hear it offered as a big excuse for atrocious coaching is getting very old and just isn't true IMHO.

I'm a bit confused. You refuse to believe we need to spend any more money to get a better performance, but then you are ok to spending more money on the coaching staff and facilities?

Yes. Not spending more is not an excuse that justifies the level of performance we've seen from some of our coaches and coordinators. Additionally, spending more money on the football team could help the program in some important ways.

Ok, then I'm pretty sure I agree with you for the most part.
01-02-2014 11:30 AM
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Vegas Owl Offline
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Post: #32
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 11:25 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 11:14 AM)Mademen Wrote:  I know nothing about the coach in question, but judging anyone off the game with Miss State seems a little unfair. Texas A&M and LSU were the only schools that had any consistent success against the Bulldogs this year. That includes some pretty damn good offenses in Auburn and Alabama. It is impossible to simulate the difference in line play coming from CUSA to an SEC team. Rice got outmanned more so than they got out schemed IMO.

And we knew we were outmanned physically and athletically on the lines going in. Consequently, the game calling and schemes should have compensated for that...and, certainly, we should have made some in-game adjustments. Our game calling was as predictable as it was conservative and, IMO, we all but gave up by early in the 3Q. (When you're down by 20+ points with less than a half remaining, you don't call a direct RB handoff up the middle on 1st down for 3 consecutive series (as Edmondson did). As has been the case all year long, the aggressiveness and imagination in our offensive play calling ended after the first 3 series (and 15 or so plays) of the game. (I think we had 2 first downs the final three quarters of the game.) We had an early successful 20-yard completion to Cella over the middle on our second series again, yet not another pass was targetted to Cella the rest of the game. Again, deja vu all over again. Hardly any short or intermediate passing routes over the middle-- to take advantage of MSU loading the box against the run and allow McHargue to beat the pressure. Sound familiar?

Again, we knew going in we were going to be badly outmanned in the trenches, yet we didn't prepare a game plan to counter that and give ourselves a chance.

+100
01-02-2014 11:31 AM
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Gravy Owl Offline
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Post: #33
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 09:59 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  Actually, McHargue got better between his sophomore and junior seasons. Accuracy went down this year but his QB rating was about the same. I agree though that he didn't progress at all this year. Heard he had been nursing a sore elbow, but still, his decision-making throwing the ball wasn't any better.

McHargue QB rating year by year:
2010 158.7
2011 118.6 <- Edmondson's first year as QB coach
2012 125.9
2013 125.3

(01-02-2014 10:28 AM)OwlAg Wrote:  Edmondson has OC experience according to his bio. Three years at Louisiana-Lafayette and two year at SMU.

That's correct. FWIW his first year at SMU went badly and his second was worse (11.2 points per game was their lowest in the modern era). After that he was demoted to WR coach.

On paper his ULaLa stint seems like the high point of his coaching career.
01-02-2014 11:35 AM
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d1owls4life Offline
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Post: #34
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 11:35 AM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 09:59 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  Actually, McHargue got better between his sophomore and junior seasons. Accuracy went down this year but his QB rating was about the same. I agree though that he didn't progress at all this year. Heard he had been nursing a sore elbow, but still, his decision-making throwing the ball wasn't any better.

McHargue QB rating year by year:
2010 158.7
2011 118.6 <- Edmondson's first year as QB coach
2012 125.9
2013 125.3

2010 was a pretty small sample size. Only 58 pass attempts in 5 games.
01-02-2014 11:39 AM
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Antarius Offline
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Post: #35
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 11:17 AM)At Ease Wrote:  Agree, but if you evaluate Edmondson on his previous OC work, where his offenses were abysmal, and his duties at Rice, where our passing game and QB development have been a mess, te same conclusion is reached.

This.

As for the MSU game, I was expecting us to show up and not just roll over. We lost to aTm, but I left that game feeling decent about our effort. MSU was good, but that is no excuse for the return of "<RB>-up-the-middle" for the whole game. We never gave ourselves a chance to win.
01-02-2014 11:40 AM
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Post: #36
RE: New OC for Owl football
If it's already decided, I'm way disappointed. No need to rush into a decision.

Don't be afraid to change things up anywhere - this wasn't the best they can be (and I'm not just basing that statement on the bowl result). But that was the same plain vanilla playbook that was inherited from Reagan, and wasn't seemingly updated at all in the last month, as the plays they fell back on were the exact same slow-developing stuff Reagan would run. He certainly didn't grab hold of the reins and give it his imprint with some things he knew would work and was dying to implement.

The other thing against Edmondson - he wasn't just QB coach, but passing game coordinator. And that passing attack wasn't ever too sophisticated, IMO. The only thing it seemed to threaten consistently was the QB's health, with all of the pressure they were under and sacks taken.
01-02-2014 11:49 AM
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Post: #37
RE: New OC for Owl football
First, I'm not over-reacting. This isn't some official Rice announcement and I don't think it should be treated like one. Who knows if this is even based off anything Duarte was told, or just his assumption.

Second, can anyone name anything Edmondson has done to justify the promotion? Obviously there are a million "behind the scenes" things that none of us know anything about, so we only have public stuff to go by. But all the public stuff seems to be mediocre-at-best. And the answer better not be recruiting, if he's the best recruiter on staff, that still doesn't mean he should be OC or DC (especially since I think it was mentioned somewhere when Reagan left that Rice's coordinators don't go out on the recruiting trail, or at least aren't assigned specific areas).
01-02-2014 11:51 AM
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Post: #38
RE: New OC for Owl football
Bailiff, surely you can't be serious!?!?!

If true, this is an absolutely horrible management decision and the latest prime example of how Bailiff can't manage a staff. If Bailiff wants to be a CEO coach in the Mack Brown mode, then he has to hire innovative coordinators. Reagan was a lousy OC himself, but Edmondson was the passing coordinator of a badly managed passing attack. The MSU game was Edmondson's audition (even if unjustified) as Rice OC with several weeks to prepare, and the clear lack of invention and creativity should disqualify him from the OC position. Edmondson's dismal track record suggests hiring any coach at random would have better results with the job.

Someone mentioned earlier that if Bailiff hired Edmondson as OC, Bailiff should be fired immediately. Bailiff obviously won't be fired, but we can pretty much shred any hopes of going forward next year. Bailiff might as well dismiss himself if this is his strategy for success.
01-02-2014 12:15 PM
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Post: #39
RE: New OC for Owl football
Since Brown retired at UT, I've been hoping that Major Applewhite might be pursued by Rice again. If not, Larry Edmondson and Chase Clement might make a good pair at OC.
01-02-2014 12:27 PM
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Post: #40
RE: New OC for Owl football
(01-02-2014 10:45 AM)talon owl Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 10:10 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  Two, you want to know why he made that choice? More than likely, he didn't have the budget to make any other choice.

This is such a load of crap and I've confronted you on this before.

We just had our highest paid assistant leave, right? His salary and any other comp were vacated. That amount of comp (and conceivably more now with likely overall staff raises) is now available to be allocated (assuming the same budget). That is more than enough money to go out and hire someone from the outside. No, we won't be able to lure an OC from a BCS program, but certainly could entertain a BCS position coach, non-BCS coordinator, highschool head coach or coordinator, etc.

If Bailiff has already made up his mind or is even already strong leaning towards Edmondson then there was never a legitimate effort to consider outside candidates, which would be very disappointing and all on DB.

It's not a load of crap. We aren't anywhere NEAR the highest paid coaching staff, and as things are probably pro-rated, while we may have had some extra money for the next 6 months... MOST of the guys we would want are still coaching.

I don't think Bailiff wanted to rush into a decision, nor does he want to upset his recruiting pipeline by having a vacated OC position AND a failed replacement a month before signing date. Edmonson IS the OC. It remains to be seen if he retains that position, and that will likely depend on budgets, contracts for guys like Thurmond and who is/will be available. You can't just bring someone in for a game in 3 weeks (with a Christmas break in there) and change the offense. You CAN do that in spring, summer and especially fall. We need to pay a bit more. Not an earth-shattering amount like SMU, but more like UH. It's not that there aren't good guys out there making less... it's that there is MORE to being a coach at Rice than coaching football for guys, 40% OR MORE of whom won't ever graduate. State has a 60% grad rate.... and that is a credit TO them, not a knock on them.

(01-02-2014 11:31 AM)Vegas Owl Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 11:25 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 11:14 AM)Mademen Wrote:  I know nothing about the coach in question, but judging anyone off the game with Miss State seems a little unfair. Texas A&M and LSU were the only schools that had any consistent success against the Bulldogs this year. That includes some pretty damn good offenses in Auburn and Alabama. It is impossible to simulate the difference in line play coming from CUSA to an SEC team. Rice got outmanned more so than they got out schemed IMO.

And we knew we were outmanned physically and athletically on the lines going in. Consequently, the game calling and schemes should have compensated for that...and, certainly, we should have made some in-game adjustments. Our game calling was as predictable as it was conservative and, IMO, we all but gave up by early in the 3Q. (When you're down by 20+ points with less than a half remaining, you don't call a direct RB handoff up the middle on 1st down for 3 consecutive series (as Edmondson did). As has been the case all year long, the aggressiveness and imagination in our offensive play calling ended after the first 3 series (and 15 or so plays) of the game. (I think we had 2 first downs the final three quarters of the game.) We had an early successful 20-yard completion to Cella over the middle on our second series again, yet not another pass was targetted to Cella the rest of the game. Again, deja vu all over again. Hardly any short or intermediate passing routes over the middle-- to take advantage of MSU loading the box against the run and allow McHargue to beat the pressure. Sound familiar?

Again, we knew going in we were going to be badly outmanned in the trenches, yet we didn't prepare a game plan to counter that and give ourselves a chance.

+100

Agree with both of these statements. We were outmanned, and lacked the 'ingenuity' to counter them. That's okay. It's a painful lesson, but a lesson nonetheless. Frankly, I'm glad it happened here at the end of the year where we are supposedly playing well as opposed to us patting ourselves on the back after demolishing directional U and then starting off next season with the same sort of situation, only to do better when the manpower advantage is less and THINK/convince ourselves that it is purely because we start slow. Mississippi State was a bad player match-up for us... with a HUGE defensive line.... and the game got ugly forcing us to pass and they just pinned their ears back. ND and A&M will try and do the same thing.

As good as we are, we cannot YET compete with solid p5 schools. We need more innovative schemes on Offense. I've said this for years. NOT to win CUSA, but to beat teams that can consistently out-athlete us. We need to try and be recent Oregon or A&M or Baylor and not Old-school UT or Nebraska or Oklahoma. With Bailiff and Edmonson's defense, we could compete.

The scheme when you are outmanned is quick drops, positioning, route adjustments and accuracy. None of that has been our forte.

The good news is, this is actually a pretty easy fix (relatively). It takes a different set of understanding... i.e. it takes understanding where the defense is coming from/where they are relative to whom they are covering... and not throwing to the guy who has coverage inside or underneath him.... but to the guy who is in front of his defender, and for him to adjust to keep himself there and 'come back' to the ball.

Frankly, this is more a QB/WR coach fix if you ask me than a play caller/schemer.

With 6'7 Jordan Taylor, We didn't have a fade or back shoulder play to him until week 10 or so. With Donte Moore, we don't have much of a quick slant play to him. Kubiak had great hands and decent frame, but not superior speed and we threw to him on the move more than using his frame and hands and sitting him down in a zone, or positioning his body against man.

This loss was painful, no doubt... but I actually see it as an opportunity... If we are simply bold enough to step through
01-02-2014 12:56 PM
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