(12-17-2013 10:45 AM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-17-2013 09:15 AM)NicevilleWRC Wrote:  I'm going a different route - winning or losing this game makes no long-term difference at all. Beating Marshall and winning the conference was MUCH more important historically and going forward.

We already ended our bowl appearance drought. We already ended our bowl win drought. We even already ended our major conference win drought. This year we ended our conference championship drought (outright and tied - 1994 was before the freshmen class was born!). By comparison what will beating Miss St do? What kind of donor wasn't conviced by the conference championship but will be pushed over the edge by a win over a middling SEC team?

We've already accomplished all of our major on-the-field goals, and this season is already a huge success. Winning the bowl game would be the cherry on top, but without the cherry we still have a delicious sundae to enjoy!

I understand Walt's point, and I think that the point is that people are talking about two different things.

That said, I tend to agree with the post above. Some say this bowl will be the most significant game we've played in since 1961.

Well if getting in the game is that significant, that makes the last two wins, first over Tulane and then over Marshall incredibly significant. In essence those were 'must win' games. Getting to the Liberty depended completely on winning those two.

Yes, but those two games meant virtually nothing to our national perception; particularly the Tulane win. This game will, particularly if we win, and it represents the HUGE win in our last game of the season, which should (one would hope) carry the fundraising momentum into 2014. A loss end a very successful season on a down note...and whether justified or not, will in all likelihood negatively impact donations (vis-a-vis a Liberty Bowl victory). That's the point.

Failing to win the bowl game encourages the perception that CUSA (and other non-aq conferences) are vastly inferior to AQ conferences. No, it doesn't tarnish the accomplishments of this team relative to our history or resources, but it does solidify our position (as well as every other team like us) as 'also ran's' on the national stage. A victory creates the perception that we (and not just CUSA, but specifically WE) CAN play AND BE SUCCESSFUL at this level.

Let me put it in perspective.

Win this game and we probably finish in the top 35. Beat Notre Dame and we're ranked.

No I don't want to put pressure on the boys... but I also know they KNOW they can win this game so I don't think I'm doing so. We need to do the little things to make a difference to keep them focused... and I think we will.

Walt - I'm with the others that say that win or lose, this bowl isn't going to make a big difference to the public, national perception. It may help with some internal factors, and you ntoe it about fundraising, but the Liberty Bowl isn't going to be a gamechanger, IMO. You say it helps with national perception, but really I think the only point you're making is vis a vis donations and Rice-specific factors. If you mean larger, than I'm with the group that will disagree.

Let's just think about the last few winners, particularly the non-P5. I would argue that all of them were seeking to get to another level, and almost none of them (except perhaps UCF in 2010, and that was a butt ugly game to watch) got much momentum out of a win or appearance, though certainly each may have gotten some drive to internal factors (like fundraising). None of the ones moving up are doing so because of a win in the Liberty Bowl, and none of them got any appreciable change in the media memes that drive them for the next season and beyond. And honestly, I think the same thing will be the case for Rice (win or lose).

12/31/02 TCU 25 Colorado State 3
12/31/03 Utah 17 Southern Miss 0
12/31/04 Louisville 44 Boise State 40
12/31/05 Tulsa 31 Fresno State 24
12/29/06 South Carolina 44 Houston 36
12/29/07 Mississippi State 10 UCF 3
1/2/09 Kentucky 25 East Carolina 19
1/2/10 Arkansas (OT) 20 East Carolina 17
12/31/10 UCF 10 Georgia 6
12/31/11 Cincinnati 31 Vanderbilt 24
12/31/12 Tulsa 31 Iowa State 17

(12-17-2013 12:09 PM)gsloth Wrote:  Walt - I'm with the others that say that win or lose, this bowl isn't going to make a big difference to the public, national perception. It may help with some internal factors, and you ntoe it about fundraising, but the Liberty Bowl isn't going to be a gamechanger, IMO. You say it helps with national perception, but really I think the only point you're making is vis a vis donations and Rice-specific factors. If you mean larger, than I'm with the group that will disagree.

Let's just think about the last few winners, particularly the non-P5. I would argue that all of them were seeking to get to another level, and almost none of them (except perhaps UCF in 2010, and that was a butt ugly game to watch) got much momentum out of a win or appearance, though certainly each may have gotten some drive to internal factors (like fundraising). None of the ones moving up are doing so because of a win in the Liberty Bowl, and none of them got any appreciable change in the media memes that drive them for the next season and beyond. And honestly, I think the same thing will be the case for Rice (win or lose).

12/31/02 TCU 25 Colorado State 3
12/31/03 Utah 17 Southern Miss 0
12/31/04 Louisville 44 Boise State 40
12/31/05 Tulsa 31 Fresno State 24
12/29/06 South Carolina 44 Houston 36
12/29/07 Mississippi State 10 UCF 3
1/2/09 Kentucky 25 East Carolina 19
1/2/10 Arkansas (OT) 20 East Carolina 17
12/31/10 UCF 10 Georgia 6
12/31/11 Cincinnati 31 Vanderbilt 24
12/31/12 Tulsa 31 Iowa State 17

Again, I never said a Liberty Bowl victory would be a "game changer" in and of itself, but it will be another positive step in the right direction. Most importantly, it will have a significant, positive impact on donations, IMO...and, if the 2003 national championship is a guide, on the endowment, as well. It will give Dr.K yet another notch to promote and sell his vision/plan to the Rice BOT, administration and extended community.

BTW, in the various examples you provide above, I do not see a single instance where a "lesser", non-BCS team beat a nationally regarded BCS program. Note--- very few would put either Colorado State or Iowa State in that category; whereas Mississippi State is considered a solid, if middle of the road, SEC program.

(12-17-2013 09:23 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  a Liberty Bowl victory over Mississippi State would be [...] not quite the statement of the 2003 baseball national championship, but probably the 2nd most important athletic event at Rice in the past 50 years

That's another interesting debate...and I'd vote for the '94 win over Texas for that title even if we were to beat Mississippi State.

A win over one of the handful of programs that comprise college football's royalty, even in just a regular season game, will always garner much more notice among the vast sea of sports fans (and even nonfans) not otherwise affiliated with Rice. With all due respect to Mississippi State, they're nowhere near royalty level.

The Liberty Bowl is a very important opportunity for us to make a positive impression in the college football world and in any event it's the only one we'll have for the next 8 months, so by all means let's make the best of it. But the next game - @ Notre Dame - has far greater potential to improve our program.

This game is a very big opportunity. If we win, it gets Rice football even more national attention than already received from winning 10 games and CUSA. If we lose though, it won't tarnish the season. The program has already gained a lot of momentum that won't be lost.

A win and a top 25 finish would be enormous. It's possible, but will be hard to do.

More than anything, the university needs to seize the momentum by starting the stadium renovations. Very soon.

(12-17-2013 12:18 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  BTW, in the various examples you provide above, I do not see a single instance where a "lesser", non-BCS team beat a nationally regarded BCS program. Note--- very few would put either Colorado State or Iowa State in that category; whereas Mississippi State is considered a solid, if middle of the road, SEC program.

Precisely.

When you consider that the CUSA champ, who almost ALWAYS has 10+ wins gets matched BY DESIGN against a 0.500 team from the SEC who almost invariably has a losing record in the SEC, it shows what people (on a national scale) think of CUSA and conference like ours. The WAC and others have similar pairings.

The only way to change this perception is to win these games. We aren't trying to change the perception of CUSA, just of Rice. That is why these games are so important. That is why this game matters so much.

If we had beaten UH and North Texas and been 12-1 with our only loss to A&M, we would STILL be in the Liberty Bowl most likely against the same Mississippi State team. If we had gone 0-4 OOC and everything else worked out the same way, we would be what, 8-4? and STILL be conference champs but I'm betting they would have found a way to keep us out of the Liberty Bowl.

You have to seize the opportunities when they present themselves.

This game matters a LOT.

Not even close. 1954 Cotton Bowl. Rice 28 Alabama 6. We used to play in big bowls, people.

(12-17-2013 09:15 AM)NicevilleWRC Wrote:  I'm going a different route - winning or losing this game makes no long-term difference at all. Beating Marshall and winning the conference was MUCH more important historically and going forward.

I agree that some are making too much of this game-- it's important, but it's not going to do anything re: realignment, and it is not nearly as important as changes we set in the direction and support of the program.

But I think a Top 25 finish is going to be much more important historically and going forward than beating Marshall (?) and winning the championship of a really bad conference.

(12-16-2013 11:37 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  ...This time next year, we need to be going after our third straight bowl victory...

Won't this be our thirds straight bowl win? Next year we'll be going after our fourth.

(12-17-2013 01:21 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(12-16-2013 11:37 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  ...This time next year, we need to be going after our third straight bowl victory...

Won't this be our thirds straight bowl win? Next year we'll be going after our fourth.

I believe he meant in consecutive years.

(12-17-2013 12:50 PM)elf owl Wrote:  Not even close. 1954 Cotton Bowl. Rice 28 Alabama 6. We used to play in big bowls, people.

While I get what you are saying and to some extent would agree, the Liberty Bowl is the NEXT GAME on the schedule. To me, that single factor makes it the biggest game until it is over. And then we move on to the next "biggest game". Keep winning those "Biggest game"s and we will get where we want to go.

(12-17-2013 12:06 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Failing to win the bowl game encourages the perception that CUSA (and other non-aq conferences) are vastly inferior to AQ conferences. No, it doesn't tarnish the accomplishments of this team relative to our history or resources, but it does solidify our position (as well as every other team like us) as 'also ran's' on the national stage. A victory creates the perception that we (and not just CUSA, but specifically WE) CAN play AND BE SUCCESSFUL at this level.

Let me put it in perspective.

Win this game and we probably finish in the top 35. Beat Notre Dame and we're ranked.

No I don't want to put pressure on the boys... but I also know they KNOW they can win this game so I don't think I'm doing so. We need to do the little things to make a difference to keep them focused... and I think we will.

Well, hell, let's just win them both.

(12-17-2013 01:37 PM)RiceFight Wrote:  

(12-17-2013 01:21 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(12-16-2013 11:37 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  ...This time next year, we need to be going after our third straight bowl victory...

Won't this be our thirds straight bowl win? Next year we'll be going after our fourth.

I believe he meant in consecutive years.

That I did.

(12-17-2013 03:50 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-17-2013 01:37 PM)RiceFight Wrote:  

(12-17-2013 01:21 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(12-16-2013 11:37 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  ...This time next year, we need to be going after our third straight bowl victory...

Won't this be our thirds straight bowl win? Next year we'll be going after our fourth.

I believe he meant in consecutive years.

That I did.

My apologies.

(12-17-2013 12:50 PM)elf owl Wrote:  Not even close. 1954 Cotton Bowl. Rice 28 Alabama 6. We used to play in big bowls, people.

Yeah, and that was more than 50 years ago (at least by my count).

(12-17-2013 12:50 PM)elf owl Wrote:  Not even close. 1954 Cotton Bowl. Rice 28 Alabama 6. We used to play in big bowls, people.

Most people are giving the caveat that their comments apply to the past 50 years. That excludes all bowls prior to 2006.

(12-17-2013 04:47 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(12-17-2013 03:50 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-17-2013 01:37 PM)RiceFight Wrote:  

(12-17-2013 01:21 PM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  

(12-16-2013 11:37 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  ...This time next year, we need to be going after our third straight bowl victory...

Won't this be our thirds straight bowl win? Next year we'll be going after our fourth.

I believe he meant in consecutive years.

That I did.

My apologies.

I was just thinking how much better it will look in stories about next year's bowl game to see in print :Rice is going after their third bowl victory in three years and fourth in four tries since 2008" than "Rice is seeking to start a new bowl winning streak after having their last one ended last year at two".

Next year's bowl. Rolls off the tongue easily now, but I remember all the years when a bowl was not on the radar. We've come a long way, baby, and a lot farther to go.

One day short of 60 years of the Liberty Bowl. I did see it on television since my parents had it on but I did not remember it since I was only 3 1/2 months old. Mother went back to Rice to finish her senior year in 1954-55 and was in a class with Dickie Maegle. I was a Rice toddler. Before that she knew Froggie Williams who beat Texas in 1949. I know Rice Williams, his son, when I went to Rice.

(12-17-2013 05:33 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(12-17-2013 12:50 PM)elf owl Wrote:  Not even close. 1954 Cotton Bowl. Rice 28 Alabama 6. We used to play in big bowls, people.

Yeah, and that was more than 50 years ago (at least by my count).

(12-17-2013 06:37 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(12-17-2013 12:50 PM)elf owl Wrote:  Not even close. 1954 Cotton Bowl. Rice 28 Alabama 6. We used to play in big bowls, people.

Most people are giving the caveat that their comments apply to the past 50 years. That excludes all bowls prior to 2006.

And I am reminding everyone of what we lost.