Any thoughts on Xavier? Strong start, nearly beats Iowa. Then gets blown out / down big in next games?

I picked them to finish 7th before the season. I've been impressed with what I've seen when I've watched them play. Really like what I've seen for Stainbrook in particular. He's better than I thought he'd be. Team work is excellent. They will have be competitive in almost every game they play.in almost every game they play.

My enthusiasm has been dampened by their recent string of losses. The Iowa game was not a bad loss. In fact coming within 3 points of a ranked team should be considered a moral victory for them. The Tennessee loss was a classic trap game since they had just beaten Tennessee a couple of weeks earlier. Probably no way they were going to win that one. I would like to have seen more from them vs USC. Losing by 6 wasn't awful, but it was a winnable game and suggests, that they're going to lose their share of those kinds of games.

TeamRnakings.com has them ranked 7th in the BE on their composite power rankings and 8th on their predictive rankings, that seems about right and it still puts them in the 80 - 100 range nationally.

Bottom line is that they're a pretty good team but probably still a year away from realizing their full potential.

Thanks for the update. They've proven they can play, hopefully they can string enough together to be an outside dance chance. still have the cinci game I think.

(12-01-2013 12:02 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  I picked them to finish 7th before the season. I've been impressed with what I've seen when I've watched them play. Really like what I've seen for Stainbrook in particular. He's better than I thought he'd be. Team work is excellent. They will have be competitive in almost every game they play.in almost every game they play.

My enthusiasm has been dampened by their recent string of losses. The Iowa game was not a bad loss. In fact coming within 3 points of a ranked team should be considered a moral victory for them. The Tennessee loss was a classic trap game since they had just beaten Tennessee a couple of weeks earlier. Probably no way they were going to win that one. I would like to have seen more from them vs USC. Losing by 6 wasn't awful, but it was a winnable game and suggests, that they're going to lose their share of those kinds of games.

TeamRnakings.com has them ranked 7th in the BE on their composite power rankings and 8th on their predictive rankings, that seems about right and it still puts them in the 80 - 100 range nationally.

Bottom line is that they're a pretty good team but probably still a year away from realizing their full potential.

they still have Cincy, Alabama, and Wake Forest.

don't know if they'll have enough wins to really challenge...

I am just not a believer in their coach. I don't think he is anywhere close to a good "X's and O's" coach as Sean Miller is. I think these last few years his teams have disappointed with a ton of Sean Miller talent. I expect them to continue their downward spiral... the question is when does XU make a change? I could see them this year if they miss the NCAAs again like last year.

(12-02-2013 10:22 AM)mlb Wrote:  I am just not a believer in their coach. I don't think he is anywhere close to a good "X's and O's" coach as Sean Miller is. I think these last few years his teams have disappointed with a ton of Sean Miller talent. I expect them to continue their downward spiral... the question is when does XU make a change? I could see them this year if they miss the NCAAs again like last year.

I think only way a change gets made is if they go like 4-14 or something like that in conference. after going 8-5 OOC.. then losing 1st round of BET- to make it like 12-20 for the season.

in what may be the single funniest thing of the year- Xavier received a vote today in the AP poll.

(12-02-2013 02:27 PM)stever20 Wrote:  in what may be the single funniest thing of the year- Xavier received a vote today in the AP poll.

And, even funnier, the vote came from Gary Williams. Yes, that Gary Williams, former Ohio State and Maryland basketball coach.

(12-02-2013 10:22 AM)mlb Wrote:  I am just not a believer in their coach. I don't think he is anywhere close to a good "X's and O's" coach as Sean Miller is. I think these last few years his teams have disappointed with a ton of Sean Miller talent. I expect them to continue their downward spiral... the question is when does XU make a change? I could see them this year if they miss the NCAAs again like last year.

It would be interesting for you to elaborate on that. Mack has had a pretty good run at Xavier for a guy that can't manage a game. He went to 3 straight tournaments, including 2 Sweet 16's after taking over from Sean Miller. Miller didn't do much better than that when he was there. He's been bringing in good talent as a recruiter and has a really big time class coming in next year, a top 15 class by most accounts, providing optimism for the future. What more do you want from the guy?

Pretty simple... he had top 10 talent and had a bunch of bad starts to seasons to start his head coaching career. Last year was the first year that he wasn't playing purely on Miller's recruits and it showed... this season has, thus far, also been a disappointment. He has 1 great recruit in his time at Xavier and he is trying to ride Semaj to victory, but everyone knows if you shut him down then Xavier has problems.

I pointed this out months ago, but I'll point it out again, his winning trend is going backwards:

Xavier (Atlantic 10 Conference) (2009–2013)
2009-2010 Xavier 26–9 14–2 T-1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2010-2011 Xavier 24–8 15–1 1st NCAA First Round
2011-2012 Xavier 23-13 10-6 3rd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2012-2013 Xavier 17-14 9-7 T-6th No Postseason

(12-05-2013 11:13 AM)mlb Wrote:  Pretty simple... he had top 10 talent and had a bunch of bad starts to seasons to start his head coaching career. Last year was the first year that he wasn't playing purely on Miller's recruits and it showed... this season has, thus far, also been a disappointment. He has 1 great recruit in his time at Xavier and he is trying to ride Semaj to victory, but everyone knows if you shut him down then Xavier has problems.

I pointed this out months ago, but I'll point it out again, his winning trend is going backwards:

Xavier (Atlantic 10 Conference) (2009–2013)
2009-2010 Xavier 26–9 14–2 T-1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2010-2011 Xavier 24–8 15–1 1st NCAA First Round
2011-2012 Xavier 23-13 10-6 3rd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2012-2013 Xavier 17-14 9-7 T-6th No Postseason

How are you determining that Mack had t 10 talent? Miller himself only got beyond the Sweet 16 once. And that wasn't the year he left. Mack inherited the remnants of a Sweet 16 team, not a top ten team. And the team lost 3 starters for that last Miller team before Mack took over. So, how was Mack left with top ten talent?

As for Mack winning with Miller's talent, miller didn't have a single top 25 recruiting class (per Scout) in the 4 years before Mack took over. So, how was he leaving top ten talent for Mack?

In fact, Mack had 2 top 25 recruiting classes in his first 3 years on the job, not to mention brining in transfers like Stainbrook. And Mack now has his 3rd top 25 recruiting class in 5 years coming in next year. Mack has been winning with his own talent, not just Miller's.

Not disparaging Miller who did a great job. But Mack has forged his own path to success. Obviously each new coach builds on the success of his predecessor(s). Following your logic, Miller doesn't deserve any credit for the success in his first few years because he was just winning with Matta's talent.

I'd kind of guess looking at the records if they have 17-14 type year this year and then again next year- Mack would have to start getting on a hot seat.

(12-05-2013 02:31 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  How are you determining that Mack had t 10 talent? Miller himself only got beyond the Sweet 16 once. And that wasn't the year he left. Mack inherited the remnants of a Sweet 16 team, not a top ten team. And the team lost 3 starters for that last Miller team before Mack took over. So, how was Mack left with top ten talent?

He left Mack with incredible guards... arguably the best back court in the country. He also had a great recruiting class in place for Mack.

Quote:As for Mack winning with Miller's talent, miller didn't have a single top 25 recruiting class (per Scout) in the 4 years before Mack took over. So, how was he leaving top ten talent for Mack?

I don't care what scout ranks players... I had Mick Cronin once tell me that you cannot trust any of those "rankings" because it is all based on hyping the players you are recruiting to those services. He told a story about getting Kenny Satterfield from 2 stars to 5 stars in 1 season based on hyping him after he had committed to UC (under Huggins).

Quote:In fact, Mack had 2 top 25 recruiting classes in his first 3 years on the job, not to mention brining in transfers like Stainbrook. And Mack now has his 3rd top 25 recruiting class in 5 years coming in next year. Mack has been winning with his own talent, not just Miller's.

Not disparaging Miller who did a great job. But Mack has forged his own path to success. Obviously each new coach builds on the success of his predecessor(s). Following your logic, Miller doesn't deserve any credit for the success in his first few years because he was just winning with Matta's talent.

I can only say this... I see a lot of Xavier games. They are not half the team as they were under Miller. They don't play as good of defense, don't rebound as well, and their offensive sets have regressed. UC fans are happy as can be that Mack is still the coach at Xavier because the longer he is there the more damage he does to their program. Their own fan base has been grumbling for 2 years about Mack, and it is surely getting worse now with the showing at Atlantis.

Lastly... there is an argument that Miller, at the start of his career, piggy backed on Matta's success. There was a lot of talent for him to start as well. The difference is he coached that talent up, got the recruiting side of things down, and parlayed it into a big time job. I'm not so sure that Mack is going to do that... he doesn't appear to have any interest from the major schools right now.

Sean Miller is one of the best coaches in the country. Kinda unfair to expect Mack to match Miller's coaching ability. I'm just starting to watch them regularly this year, but I have no problem with Mack.

(12-06-2013 10:39 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Sean Miller is one of the best coaches in the country. Kinda unfair to expect Mack to match Miller's coaching ability. I'm just starting to watch them regularly this year, but I have no problem with Mack.

Why is it unfair? You compare to the previous guy.. Xavier had done a great job of hiring coaches that improved the program. This time they finally made a mistake after years of great decisions. It happens... and Xavier will eventually pull the plug and bring in a new coach who is better, IMO. The question is when.

(12-06-2013 10:39 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Sean Miller is one of the best coaches in the country. Kinda unfair to expect Mack to match Miller's coaching ability. I'm just starting to watch them regularly this year, but I have no problem with Mack.

I see the same thing with Jim Crews being compared to the last guy at SLU.

I've always thought Chris Mack did a good job at X.

Putting the beatdown on Cincy. OK, poor choice of words after last year. But still. Nice crosstown win.

(12-06-2013 10:52 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 10:39 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Sean Miller is one of the best coaches in the country. Kinda unfair to expect Mack to match Miller's coaching ability. I'm just starting to watch them regularly this year, but I have no problem with Mack.

Why is it unfair? You compare to the previous guy.. Xavier had done a great job of hiring coaches that improved the program. This time they finally made a mistake after years of great decisions. It happens... and Xavier will eventually pull the plug and bring in a new coach who is better, IMO. The question is when.

Okay. Let's compare the two.

In his four years coming into this season, Mack has been to 3 NCAA tournaments, advancing to the Sweet 16 twice. He finished first in the A10 twice and 3rd once and won back-to-back conference championships. He put up a record of 90-44 (.672), 48-16 (.750) in conference with 3 season of 23+ wins.

In his first 4 years, Miller went to 3 NCAA tournaments, advancing to the Elite 8 once. He finished first in the A10 twice, winning one conference championship, finished 2nd in the west once. He put up a record in those 4 seasons of 93-39 (.705), 45-19 (.703) in conference. With 3 seasons of 21+ wins.

It's hard to see much difference between them.

(12-15-2013 08:54 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 10:52 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(12-06-2013 10:39 AM)billyjack Wrote:  Sean Miller is one of the best coaches in the country. Kinda unfair to expect Mack to match Miller's coaching ability. I'm just starting to watch them regularly this year, but I have no problem with Mack.

Why is it unfair? You compare to the previous guy.. Xavier had done a great job of hiring coaches that improved the program. This time they finally made a mistake after years of great decisions. It happens... and Xavier will eventually pull the plug and bring in a new coach who is better, IMO. The question is when.

Okay. Let's compare the two.

In his four years coming into this season, Mack has been to 3 NCAA tournaments, advancing to the Sweet 16 twice. He finished first in the A10 twice and 3rd once and won back-to-back conference championships. He put up a record of 90-44 (.672), 48-16 (.750) in conference with 3 season of 23+ wins.

In his first 4 years, Miller went to 3 NCAA tournaments, advancing to the Elite 8 once. He finished first in the A10 twice, winning one conference championship, finished 2nd in the west once. He put up a record in those 4 seasons of 93-39 (.705), 45-19 (.703) in conference. With 3 seasons of 21+ wins.

It's hard to see much difference between them.

And miller did it with matta's recruits. Mlb is just hoping Mack leaves to give uc a chance.

(12-06-2013 10:27 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 02:31 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  How are you determining that Mack had t 10 talent? Miller himself only got beyond the Sweet 16 once. And that wasn't the year he left. Mack inherited the remnants of a Sweet 16 team, not a top ten team. And the team lost 3 starters for that last Miller team before Mack took over. So, how was Mack left with top ten talent?

He left Mack with incredible guards... arguably the best back court in the country. He also had a great recruiting class in place for Mack.

Quote:As for Mack winning with Miller's talent, miller didn't have a single top 25 recruiting class (per Scout) in the 4 years before Mack took over. So, how was he leaving top ten talent for Mack?

I don't care what scout ranks players... I had Mick Cronin once tell me that you cannot trust any of those "rankings" because it is all based on hyping the players you are recruiting to those services. He told a story about getting Kenny Satterfield from 2 stars to 5 stars in 1 season based on hyping him after he had committed to UC (under Huggins).

Quote:In fact, Mack had 2 top 25 recruiting classes in his first 3 years on the job, not to mention brining in transfers like Stainbrook. And Mack now has his 3rd top 25 recruiting class in 5 years coming in next year. Mack has been winning with his own talent, not just Miller's.

Not disparaging Miller who did a great job. But Mack has forged his own path to success. Obviously each new coach builds on the success of his predecessor(s). Following your logic, Miller doesn't deserve any credit for the success in his first few years because he was just winning with Matta's talent.

I can only say this... I see a lot of Xavier games. They are not half the team as they were under Miller. They don't play as good of defense, don't rebound as well, and their offensive sets have regressed. UC fans are happy as can be that Mack is still the coach at Xavier because the longer he is there the more damage he does to their program. Their own fan base has been grumbling for 2 years about Mack, and it is surely getting worse now with the showing at Atlantis.

Lastly... there is an argument that Miller, at the start of his career, piggy backed on Matta's success. There was a lot of talent for him to start as well. The difference is he coached that talent up, got the recruiting side of things down, and parlayed it into a big time job. I'm not so sure that Mack is going to do that... he doesn't appear to have any interest from the major schools right now.

It may be your opinion that Xavier had the best backcourt in the country, but I can't find anyone else who agrees with you. There were a lot of great guards that year, starting with John Wall. What I do know is that Xabier didn't bring in a single recruit that year. Great job Miller did, leaving the cupboard bare for his successor.

I wonder how happy Cincy fans are today that Mack is the coach at Xavier after his team kicked Cincy's butt this weekend. I can see why Cincy fans might think that Miller was such a great coach. For most of his tenure at Xavier, the Cincinnati program was non-competitive, so losing to Xabier every year must have made it seem as if they had a great coach.