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Championship Game
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Baconator Offline
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Post: #21
Re: RE: Championship Game
(12-01-2013 12:00 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  
(11-30-2013 11:45 PM)Baconator Wrote:  Honestly, if coach Bailiff doesn't vote for his own team in this situation, he should be reprimanded. And possibly fired if it costs the university a chance to host a championship game.

And if Bailiff votes for his team, after the last two performances we've had, and Marshall's coach doesn't vote for his team, how well do you think that will play PR-wise?

Look, I understand your point and I've struggled with this. As I said in my previous post, I'm glad I'm not in his shoes.

I'm not worried about the PR aspect. The Rice head coach's first loyalty should be to Rice. If the system can be gamed, we need to be smart enough to use that to our advantage.

Honestly if I were Bailiff I'd vote us 24th just in case the Marshall coach decided to vote his team 25th. Ha.
12-01-2013 12:34 AM
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T-Moar Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Championship Game
(12-01-2013 12:34 AM)Baconator Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 12:00 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  
(11-30-2013 11:45 PM)Baconator Wrote:  Honestly, if coach Bailiff doesn't vote for his own team in this situation, he should be reprimanded. And possibly fired if it costs the university a chance to host a championship game.

And if Bailiff votes for his team, after the last two performances we've had, and Marshall's coach doesn't vote for his team, how well do you think that will play PR-wise?

Look, I understand your point and I've struggled with this. As I said in my previous post, I'm glad I'm not in his shoes.

I'm not worried about the PR aspect. The Rice head coach's first loyalty should be to Rice. If the system can be gamed, we need to be smart enough to use that to our advantage.

Honestly if I were Bailiff I'd vote us 24th just in case the Marshall coach decided to vote his team 25th. Ha.

Not that I disagree with that line of thinking, but if you were Bailiff, why stop there? Why not just go ahead and vote your team first? As you said, his job is to do what's best for Rice Football. And as bad as it would probably look to the outside world, it would also signal to his players and fans that he's got their back.
12-01-2013 12:38 AM
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RiceDad Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Championship Game
(12-01-2013 12:00 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  
(11-30-2013 11:45 PM)Baconator Wrote:  Honestly, if coach Bailiff doesn't vote for his own team in this situation, he should be reprimanded. And possibly fired if it costs the university a chance to host a championship game.

And if Bailiff votes for his team, after the last two performances we've had, and Marshall's coach doesn't vote for his team, how well do you think that will play PR-wise?

Look, I understand your point and I've struggled with this. As I said in my previous post, I'm glad I'm not in his shoes.

I don't understand, nor really care to, all of the intricacies of this system, but to ask a coach not to vote for his own team to help them in the post season, says that the system is what lacks integrity, not the coach!!
12-01-2013 12:46 AM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Championship Game
(12-01-2013 12:15 AM)I45owl Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 12:02 AM)Philoso-Owl Wrote:  
(11-30-2013 11:55 PM)d1owls4life Wrote:  
(11-30-2013 11:51 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(11-30-2013 11:45 PM)Baconator Wrote:  Honestly, if coach Bailiff doesn't vote for his own team in this situation, he should be reprimanded. And possibly fired if it costs the university a chance to host a championship game.

+1. This has nothing to do with integrity and setting an example for the kids (as several posters have suggested). Rather, it's how the game is played-- and it's the case in all NCAA sports. You have to figure the Marshall head coach is going to vote for Marshall. Consequently, if DB does not cast his vote for Rice, he is all but conceding Marshall the home game...and it DOES matter as both the Owls and The Herd are infinitely better teams playing at home. Also, let's not discount how difficult a road trip it is to get to Huntington; it's both a plane ride and significant bus ride.

Actually, yeah, it does have something to do with integrity.

I'm glad I'm not in his position right now.

An interesting ethical choice. Does it matter if he ranks them/us more or less highly within the top 25? It would be even more disingenuous to vote for us as anywhere within the top 20 (just as an example), but in his situation I could probably talk myself into voting for Rice as the 25th or 24th best team.

The simple solution is to call Doc Holliday and mutually agree to vote for their own team. If one reneges, then, ...

The complicated solution is to call Doc Holiday and agree to meet tomorrow at sunrise with pistols waiting...

I thought about this earlier in the week (your simple solution, not the latter). Agreeing to both vote for your team (or both not vote) and then announce it to the media would be fair and would expose any duplicity.

Of course the person who believes the computers/rankings favor his position is going to be the one to offer this solution . . . . .

If you're convinced that the system is not in your favor, you just refuse to accept the deal.
12-01-2013 01:00 AM
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Baconator Offline
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Post: #25
Re: RE: Championship Game
(12-01-2013 12:38 AM)T-Moar Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 12:34 AM)Baconator Wrote:  
(12-01-2013 12:00 AM)d1owls4life Wrote:  
(11-30-2013 11:45 PM)Baconator Wrote:  Honestly, if coach Bailiff doesn't vote for his own team in this situation, he should be reprimanded. And possibly fired if it costs the university a chance to host a championship game.

And if Bailiff votes for his team, after the last two performances we've had, and Marshall's coach doesn't vote for his team, how well do you think that will play PR-wise?

Look, I understand your point and I've struggled with this. As I said in my previous post, I'm glad I'm not in his shoes.

I'm not worried about the PR aspect. The Rice head coach's first loyalty should be to Rice. If the system can be gamed, we need to be smart enough to use that to our advantage.

Honestly if I were Bailiff I'd vote us 24th just in case the Marshall coach decided to vote his team 25th. Ha.

Not that I disagree with that line of thinking, but if you were Bailiff, why stop there? Why not just go ahead and vote your team first? As you said, his job is to do what's best for Rice Football. And as bad as it would probably look to the outside world, it would also signal to his players and fans that he's got their back.

That's the spirit!

I think at a certain point you risk having your vote permanently removed by the coaches association, and that would be very negative for the program. I like your statement about having the team's back. That could be a motivational tool. "Hey men, I stuck my neck out for you. Now you have to come through for me."
12-01-2013 01:06 AM
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THRILL Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Championship Game
Hell vote Rice No. 1 and **** em if they cant take a joke.

If it becomes an issue , use it to point out the flaw in the system.
It all gets redone next year anyway as far as BCS Championship
12-01-2013 01:09 AM
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Caelligh Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Championship Game
A conflict of interest typically means that a party recuses him/herself from voting on the issue at hand. I think that is a well-established practice of elected and appointed boards, councils, etc. Both coaches should recuse themselves from voting this week.
12-01-2013 01:14 AM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Championship Game
It just feels sleazy. I do not like the idea of our coach casting a top 25 vote for a team he knows is not top 25 caliber. I think a coach who "gets Rice" won't do that, so I'm guessing it won't happen.
12-01-2013 01:31 AM
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texd Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Championship Game
Systematically, it seems to me that all coaches should get a vote (they do, don't they) and that no coaches should be allowed to vote for their own team. Absent that, CUSA should rely on computer rankings only (or computer and Harris Poll only, dropping the coaches out).

In the current case, I think a gentleman's agreement should suffice.
12-01-2013 01:35 AM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Championship Game
(12-01-2013 01:14 AM)Caelligh Wrote:  A conflict of interest typically means that a party recuses him/herself from voting on the issue at hand. I think that is a well-established practice of elected and appointed boards, councils, etc. Both coaches should recuse themselves from voting this week.

I think this is probably the best answer, absent a gentleman's agreement.

but it still doesn't keep a coach's friends from stepping in and taking matters into their own hands.

Really needs to be objective . . . .
12-01-2013 01:49 AM
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texd Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Championship Game
If there's no time to get a gentlemen's agreement, or the other person will not make the agreement, just announce unilaterally that you're not voting for your own team because it wouldn't be right and make sure at least one media outlet picks it up... as long as that one outlet is in the other teams home market.
12-01-2013 02:00 AM
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Viejobuho Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Championship Game
Bailiff will be criticized no matter what he does. Bailiff should ask Leebron to assume responsibility and Leebron should agree, at the Presidents' level, for both coaches to abstain from voting.
The Presidents do not have so much vested ( as in personal job security), so they can make a more rational and acceptable decision.
12-01-2013 08:12 AM
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wheredidmypantsgo Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Championship Game
Don't hate the player, hate the game.... of course Bailiff should vote for Rice. I get that some of you guys trying to take the high road, but doing so leaves open the chance that Rice gets screwed. You cannot take that risk.
12-01-2013 08:21 AM
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MemOwl Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Championship Game
Has anyone seen Marshall play? Any theory of how to beat them?

http://www.conferenceusa.com/sports/m-fo...fonly.html

Looking at the stats provides no encouragement. I'd expect Marshall to be a 7-10 point favorite based on these stats. Is the East profoundly weaker than the West? maybe that explains it.
12-01-2013 08:46 AM
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clarkent Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Championship Game
If it comes down to computer rankings (http://www.bcsfootball.org/news/story?id=4765872) here is where we were before yesterday's games:

Sagarin: Marshall 53, RICE 72
Anderson & Hester: RICE 55, Marshall 72
Billingsley: RICE 52, Marshall 70
Colley: RICE 53, Marshall 65
Massey: Marshall 68, RICE 69
Wolfe: RICE 56, Marshall 64

RICE: 52, 53, 55, 56, 69, 72 = 58.25 AVG (after highest and lowest dropped)
Marshall: 53, 64, 65, 68, 70, 72 = 64.25 AVG (after highest and lowest dropped)
(This post was last modified: 12-01-2013 09:40 AM by clarkent.)
12-01-2013 09:28 AM
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clarkent Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Championship Game
And Massey has been published:
Massey: Marshall 60, RICE 67 (Marshall +8, Rice +2... Net = Marshall +6)
12-01-2013 09:37 AM
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clarkent Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Championship Game
As has Sagarin: (which I believe I misread earlier):

Sagarin ratings are: Marshall 53, Rice 72... But it says the rankings BCS uses are: RICE 56, Marshall 58...
12-01-2013 09:54 AM
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Viejobuho Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Championship Game
(12-01-2013 09:28 AM)clarkent Wrote:  If it comes down to computer rankings (http://www.bcsfootball.org/news/story?id=4765872) here is where we were before yesterday's games:

Sagarin: Marshall 53, RICE 72
Anderson & Hester: RICE 55, Marshall 72
Billingsley: RICE 52, Marshall 70
Colley: RICE 53, Marshall 65
Massey: Marshall 68, RICE 69
Wolfe: RICE 56, Marshall 64

RICE: 52, 53, 55, 56, 69, 72 = 58.25 AVG (after highest and lowest dropped)
Marshall: 53, 64, 65, 68, 70, 72 = 64.25 AVG (after highest and lowest dropped)

Thks for above data; however, using above numbers, I get 66.75 for Marshall's AVG. of 4 middle scores.

After both Sagarin and Massey updated to include results of Nov 30, Rice continues to lead with 57.75 vs 64.75 averages of middle 4 scores
12-01-2013 10:05 AM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Championship Game
Gee whiz. A coin flip in this case would be no less rational, and much less manipulable.
I know that the masses conceptually hate random determinants, but they have their virtues.

Alternatively, if one cannot stomach randomness, this situation make a good case for using a historical determinant, which also has the virtue of being not manipulable -- a virtue which ought to be valued more highly than it is.
12-01-2013 10:43 AM
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Post: #40
RE: Championship Game
(12-01-2013 09:28 AM)clarkent Wrote:  If it comes down to computer rankings (http://www.bcsfootball.org/news/story?id=4765872) here is where we were before yesterday's games:

Sagarin: Marshall 53, RICE 72
Anderson & Hester: RICE 55, Marshall 72
Billingsley: RICE 52, Marshall 70
Colley: RICE 53, Marshall 65
Massey: Marshall 68, RICE 69
Wolfe: RICE 56, Marshall 64

RICE: 52, 53, 55, 56, 69, 72 = 58.25 AVG (after highest and lowest dropped)
Marshall: 53, 64, 65, 68, 70, 72 = 64.25 AVG (after highest and lowest dropped)

And that's precisely why the "objective", non-biased computers are no better than the human polls. Note that these 6 computer rankings range from having Rice 18 spot better than Marshall to Rice 19 place worse than Marshall. That's a 37 spot range differential for teams ranked within the Top 72. Quite a deviation amongst the computers.
(This post was last modified: 12-01-2013 10:54 AM by waltgreenberg.)
12-01-2013 10:54 AM
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