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Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
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TIGERCITY Offline
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Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
Different max points assigned to factors that will probably be considered --- with a narrative explaining each. About 16 of the potential schools were graded.

HERE >>>

http://frankthetank.me/2013/10/30/the-bi...-all-over/
11-01-2013 11:02 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
When SMU, Houston, and TCU all either completed work, broke ground, or announced renovations...they prefaced a change in conference.

Tulane and their OCS? Big East/AAC.
FAU? CUSA.

Charlotte was going D1, but you knew the moment they announced their stadium plans it wasn't going to be for FCS. ODU upgraded their facility. Both will be CUSA members next year. When JMU upgraded their facility, people suspected it was for a reason. Well, aren't they now fishing?

These massive projects don't happen without assurances they are leading to something.

The ones I'm watching are Rice, Colorado State, and Cincinnati. That's where money is being spent (or has been spent) without current movement. Maybe not all Big XII candidates, but those are three schools worth keeping tabs on.
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2013 11:41 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
11-01-2013 11:35 AM
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LSUtah Offline
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
Great read, although most Big12 fans will not agree with the harsh realities.

I disagree on Tulane as far as football goes...they have been bad long before Hurricane Katrina.
11-01-2013 11:46 AM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
(11-01-2013 11:35 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  When SMU, Houston, and TCU all either completed work, broke ground, or announced renovations...they prefaced a change in conference.

Tulane and their OCS? Big East/AAC.
FAU? CUSA.

Charlotte was going D1, but you knew the moment they announced their stadium plans it wasn't going to be for FCS. ODU upgraded their facility. Both will be CUSA members next year. When JMU upgraded their facility, people suspected it was for a reason. Well, aren't they now fishing?

These massive projects don't happen without assurances they are leading to something.

The ones I'm watching are Rice, Colorado State, and Cincinnati. That's where money is being spent (or has been spent) without current movement. Maybe not all Big XII candidates, but those are three schools worth keeping tabs on.

I don't think that is quite the case.

More likely the institutions self-identified what weaknesses they had and moved to address them. North Texas whether they moved CUSA or stayed Sun Belt was in desperate need of a new stadium.

I doubt any of the projects happened because of assurances, rather the schools identified a way to deal with a weakness and then when circumstances changed and conferences were looking for members they were better positioned than they had been.

Arkansas State is currently starting a $31 million upgrade of its stadium and I don't believe they are making that investment based on any assurance rather they had needs to address and hope to improve their revenue stream much the same reason Tulane concluded the Superdome wasn't their best option.
11-01-2013 12:14 PM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
(11-01-2013 11:46 AM)LSUtah Wrote:  Great read, although most Big12 fans will not agree with the harsh realities.

I disagree on Tulane as far as football goes...they have been bad long before Hurricane Katrina.

They would have been a BCS buster in the early years of the BCS if the current rules were in place.
11-01-2013 12:17 PM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
Great article. Most of us on this board have long argued that Cincy and BYU were the best choices... I believe, from what was being reported at the time, BYU was almost on board when the Texhoma drama began, just after the Aggies announced they were leaving. The worst that could happen if BYU does join the Big XII and it dissolves, is that they could always return to Indy status. Playing Sundays should not be an issue for BYU in the Big XII. How often does that ever happen anyway?
11-01-2013 01:04 PM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
This was a good right up on candidates Frank both from the East and West but if you look at the B12's move to add WVU I think its pretty clear they want to stay East with expansion because that is where the better recruiting grounds and national TV points are.

One of the questions I have is does 12 work for the B12 or would they be better served adding 4 schools and trying to make it the B14? If all the Texas/OK schools want to stick together the divisions don't seem right in a 12 team model.

North: Kansas, K-State, ISU, WVU, USF, UCF
South: OSU, OU, Texas, TT, Baylor, TCU

I guess you could switch K-State and TCU for better balance. However let's say you do that and go to 14 adding two more heavy BB schools in Memphis and Cincinnati.

East: Kansas, ISU, Memphis, Cincinnati, WVU, USF, UCF
West: OSU, OU, Texas, TT, Baylor, TCU, K-State

At this point its creating more of an ACC metro market feel to the league where the B14 has metro markets in the East that isn't representing the ACC. Its makes the league feel more like a major basketball conference instead of a TX/OK based football conference.

I don't see the point of the B12 expanding until the next contract in 2020 when the CFP could be expanded to 8 teams/8 bowl games. The disadvantages of not having a conference championship game will become evident and also having a hard time filling bowl obligations at only 10 members if 3 make a CFP game.

The B12 needs to go strong in one direction. Trying to do something like BYU in the West and Cincinnati in the East doesn't help the league as much as going heavily in one direction (like the suggestion of adding both USF and UCF).
11-01-2013 01:18 PM
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bigblueblindness Offline
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
Very good article by Frank. It must be frustrating to New Mexico fans that one serious push in all areas other than basketball would probably be enough to get them an invite in the near future to the Big 12 and possibly even the PAC. I guarantee Gus Fring (from Breaking Bad) would have them in a P5 conference had he been the President of the university over the last decade.
11-01-2013 01:31 PM
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Wilkie01 Offline
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
I have been saying for along time BYU and Cincinnati are #11 and #12. I agree with Frank. 07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2013 03:09 PM by Wilkie01.)
11-01-2013 01:33 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
(11-01-2013 12:14 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 11:35 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  When SMU, Houston, and TCU all either completed work, broke ground, or announced renovations...they prefaced a change in conference.

Tulane and their OCS? Big East/AAC.
FAU? CUSA.

Charlotte was going D1, but you knew the moment they announced their stadium plans it wasn't going to be for FCS. ODU upgraded their facility. Both will be CUSA members next year. When JMU upgraded their facility, people suspected it was for a reason. Well, aren't they now fishing?

These massive projects don't happen without assurances they are leading to something.

The ones I'm watching are Rice, Colorado State, and Cincinnati. That's where money is being spent (or has been spent) without current movement. Maybe not all Big XII candidates, but those are three schools worth keeping tabs on.

I don't think that is quite the case.

More likely the institutions self-identified what weaknesses they had and moved to address them. North Texas whether they moved CUSA or stayed Sun Belt was in desperate need of a new stadium.

I doubt any of the projects happened because of assurances, rather the schools identified a way to deal with a weakness and then when circumstances changed and conferences were looking for members they were better positioned than they had been.

Arkansas State is currently starting a $31 million upgrade of its stadium and I don't believe they are making that investment based on any assurance rather they had needs to address and hope to improve their revenue stream much the same reason Tulane concluded the Superdome wasn't their best option.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I think that in these times, there's going to have to be more reasons to build/invest in facilities than just "we think we should." And not that every renovation/project is a cry for smoke, resource investment is part of this operation, but those projects that run into the high 8 and 9 digits...those projects tend to, at the very least, be pegged to some top-level equivalencies.

The one that got me was TCU. $160m+ to topple over a stadium just to build more luxury suites...for Mountain West football?

This is why I think CSU has probably had more conversations with top-level programs and conferences than people might think. If you're spending something like $200m+ for a stadium, either your state and booster coffers are short a few braincells, or there's a lot of documentation assuring the project will bring a massive windfall to the institution. Because Colorado isn't Texas, my hunch is that it's the latter.

As for ASU...haven't you guys been in the rumor mill for CUSA and MAC?

Quote: It must be frustrating to New Mexico fans that one serious push in all areas other than basketball would probably be enough to get them an invite in the near future to the Big 12 and possibly even the PAC.

It's frustrating when you were originally in the hunt for the original #11 and #12 spots. Nearly 20 years later, that they may be no further ahead now than they were then? That's just depressing.
(This post was last modified: 11-01-2013 01:36 PM by The Cutter of Bish.)
11-01-2013 01:34 PM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
Before Boise and SDSU went back to MWC, there was serious talk that we were headed to the MWC. That wasn't message board talk, that was high dollar boosters talking privately.

MAC thing has been bandied around but I've never seen any indication that the MAC talk was anything beyond some people toying with the idea that Arkansas State and Missouri State could bring the league further west and south and allow Toledo to move to the east.

There was some CUSA talk but that was all tied to the idea of going to 16 and trying to let UAB move its more natural position in the east.
11-01-2013 01:42 PM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
(11-01-2013 11:46 AM)LSUtah Wrote:  Great read, although most Big12 fans will not agree with the harsh realities.

I disagree on Tulane as far as football goes...they have been bad long before Hurricane Katrina.

Let's be honest. Tulane is the one school in the country that self inflicted its own wounds at every possible point it could. But the one thing that cannot be denied is its potential based on geography, academics, athletics. With every subsequent misstep we made we surely could count our our brethren done the river to capitalize on it. The problem with our past leadership was they were driven by idealogy. Now that money is real I think we woke up out of the coma we were under. But given that LSU only thinks that a successful LSU is a bad Tulane we can bet the farm that we will not get a second chance at SEC. Even though we still have more championships. Than Arkansas, miss state, South Carolina. Haha.
11-01-2013 01:47 PM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
I think this is a well-written piece, but I think there is far too much emphasis put on football brand value as compared to TV value. It's important, but if most of the moves made in the last 4 years are any indication, it isn't worth twice what TV value is. In fact it may be exactly the reciprocal.
11-01-2013 01:52 PM
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Frog in the Kitchen Sink Offline
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
Obviously the categories, how they are weighted and the score to each are all arbitrary and subject to debate. I do suspect something like this would be how a conference assesses expansion (or whether to expand at all).
11-01-2013 02:38 PM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
(11-01-2013 01:42 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Before Boise and SDSU went back to MWC, there was serious talk that we were headed to the MWC. That wasn't message board talk, that was high dollar boosters talking privately.

MAC thing has been bandied around but I've never seen any indication that the MAC talk was anything beyond some people toying with the idea that Arkansas State and Missouri State could bring the league further west and south and allow Toledo to move to the east.

There was some CUSA talk but that was all tied to the idea of going to 16 and trying to let UAB move its more natural position in the east.

Don't you think that CUSA out of all the options makes the most sense for Arkansas State?

It sounds like you don't like the idea of being hooked in with the Eastern schools of CUSA. Regardless of culture that is more TX/OK oriented in the state and on campus, TV executives are going to look at your location relative to WKU/MTSU and feel that is where the fit is.
11-01-2013 02:43 PM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
(11-01-2013 01:33 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  I have been saying for along timr BYU and Cincinnati are #11 and #12. I agree with Frank. 07-coffee3

BYU has scheduling issues. They will NEVER play any game from any sport on any SUNDAY! That is a major issue with the Big 12 (or for that matter any conference) hence they are an independent.......

I think that BYU stays independent..... ala ND
11-01-2013 02:45 PM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
Big 12 has enough schools in TX. I think U.C. and Memphis would be great additions to the league.

Iowa State
Cincinnati
Kansas
Kansas St
Memphis
West Virginia

Oklahoma
Oklahoma St
Baylor
T. Tech
TCU
Texas
11-01-2013 02:53 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
(11-01-2013 02:45 PM)TyBull Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 01:33 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  I have been saying for along timr BYU and Cincinnati are #11 and #12. I agree with Frank. 07-coffee3

BYU has scheduling issues. They will NEVER play any game from any sport on any SUNDAY! That is a major issue with the Big 12 (or for that matter any conference) hence they are an independent.......

I think that BYU stays independent..... ala ND

It's not just Sundays, but later Saturday evening games, too, especially if not at home. It pushes travel into Sunday, and that's the issue.

The complications really hinge on the olympic sports, though. They will sometimes bundle travel with a couple of programs, and the weekends become the issue.
11-01-2013 03:00 PM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
(11-01-2013 02:43 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 01:42 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Before Boise and SDSU went back to MWC, there was serious talk that we were headed to the MWC. That wasn't message board talk, that was high dollar boosters talking privately.

MAC thing has been bandied around but I've never seen any indication that the MAC talk was anything beyond some people toying with the idea that Arkansas State and Missouri State could bring the league further west and south and allow Toledo to move to the east.

There was some CUSA talk but that was all tied to the idea of going to 16 and trying to let UAB move its more natural position in the east.

Don't you think that CUSA out of all the options makes the most sense for Arkansas State?

It sounds like you don't like the idea of being hooked in with the Eastern schools of CUSA. Regardless of culture that is more TX/OK oriented in the state and on campus, TV executives are going to look at your location relative to WKU/MTSU and feel that is where the fit is.

There is no room for A-State in CUSA east.

Historically we have always aligned with schools in Texas and later Texas and Louisiana. Unitl 1990 we had never been in a conference with anyone outside of Texas and Louisiana.
11-01-2013 03:09 PM
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Index - nice breakdown by FrankThe Tank
He lost all credibility when he put UNM and UH on par academically with SMU.

Do some freaking research dude. Just laughable.
11-01-2013 03:09 PM
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