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Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
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WKUApollo Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
(10-31-2013 04:46 PM)Vobserver Wrote:  Exactly. They included smallpox infested blankets in 'trade goods' used in trade with Amerinds for furs, feathers and artifacts.

Sad that anyone would believe these distortions of history.
10-31-2013 11:14 PM
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mathenis89 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
(10-31-2013 11:14 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 04:46 PM)Vobserver Wrote:  Exactly. They included smallpox infested blankets in 'trade goods' used in trade with Amerinds for furs, feathers and artifacts.

Sad that anyone would believe these distortions of history.

Indeed.
11-01-2013 01:35 AM
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panama Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
(10-31-2013 09:53 PM)WKUFan518 Wrote:  THan later today, the cleanest program in America Georgia St. has 4 guys suspended for game Saturday...

Must have been a Thursday

FYI, CTM suspends players for being late to meetings or missing a class. Being that it is a one game suspension I am guessing that it was that minor.
11-01-2013 11:01 AM
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Vobserver Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
(10-31-2013 11:14 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 04:46 PM)Vobserver Wrote:  Exactly. They included smallpox infested blankets in 'trade goods' used in trade with Amerinds for furs, feathers and artifacts.

Sad that anyone would believe these distortions of history.

That is not a distortion. The 'Noble Savage' is a distortion, but the wholesale slaughter of women and children, both by intentional biological attack and by simple shooting and stabbing is documented history.

Custer spent most of his brief Indian Wars career slaughtering women and babies in Lakota, Dakota and other Siouxan encampments.
11-01-2013 11:40 AM
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Post: #25
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
It must make it hard for Petrino to punish people for indiscretions when he himself has made so many. You'd think he'd be real forgiving.
11-01-2013 11:49 AM
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WKUApollo Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
(11-01-2013 11:40 AM)Vobserver Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 11:14 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 04:46 PM)Vobserver Wrote:  Exactly. They included smallpox infested blankets in 'trade goods' used in trade with Amerinds for furs, feathers and artifacts.

Sad that anyone would believe these distortions of history.

That is not a distortion. The 'Noble Savage' is a distortion, but the wholesale slaughter of women and children, both by intentional biological attack and by simple shooting and stabbing is documented history.

Custer spent most of his brief Indian Wars career slaughtering women and babies in Lakota, Dakota and other Siouxan encampments.

Not to in any way diminish the vast loss of life by defeated peoples and the slaughter of innocents committed throughout the planet by all ethnic groups against their own or others throughout history but to say "intentional biological attack is documented history" is a gross distortion of the facts as it concerns the Americas. In fact, there is no documented fact to fully prove such a case ever existed. Most diehard liberal "indian genocide" activists always refer to the letters from two British officers during the French and Indian War (Amherst and Bouquet). In that letter, Amherst suggested utilizing using smallpox infected blankets but no where is it ever suggested this action ever occurred. In fact, Bouquet expressed reservations in his letter back to Amherst because of the fear of infecting his own men.

Another instance used by Indian genocide activists is to refer to a letter from Trent, commander of a local militia at Fort Pitt in 1763 which was under seige. The activists take a line out of this letter and "interpret" the meaning to be other than what the meaning is when you read the entire letter. Here's the quote "Out of our regard for them (two Indian chiefs) we gave them two blankets and a handkerchief out of the smallpox hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect." These two sentences make one think they intentionally gave infected blankets to the Indians. However, here's the rest of the letter:

"[May] 24th [1763] The Turtles Heart a principal Warrior of the Delawares and Mamaltee a Chief came within a small distance of the Fort Mr. McKee went out to them and they made a Speech letting us know that all our [POSTS] as [at] Ligonier was destroyed, that great numbers of Indians [were coming and] that out of regard to us, they had prevailed on 6 Nations [not to] attack us but give us time to go down the Country and they desired we would set of immediately. The Commanding Officer thanked them, let them know that we had everything we wanted, that we could defend it against all the Indians in the Woods, that we had three large Armys marching to Chastise those Indians that had struck us, told them to take care of their Women and Children, but not to tell any other Natives, they said they would go and speak to their Chiefs and come and tell us what they said, they returned and said they would hold fast of the Chain of friendship. Out of our regard to them we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect. They then told us that Ligonier had been attacked, but that the Enemy were beat of."

Basically, the white commanders gave blankets that came from the hospital to the Indians as a gesture. These were the "friendly" Indians that they were working with and had shown kindness to them. It doesn't state the blankets were infected and there's no indication they were. Would a soldier willingly take an infected blanket from the hospital to give to Indians with the very good chance he too would be infected?

Now I know you'll come back with a list of other atrocities committed against the Indians throughout the last few hundred years. I won't argue their validity. It occurred. However, a true historian looks at primary source documents and evidence, not tall tales, biased oral history, etc.

One must remember, concerning smallpox, that whites were not immune and there was no vaccination during this era. Whites had a higher survival rate but to think whites could intentionally give smallpox to indians without the danger of infecting their own people is ludicrous. Half a million Europeans died every year from Smallpox during that time. Millions of Indians died from smallpox. The evidence suggest most infections of smallpox from whites to Indians actually occurred during and after engagements of conflict. Indians would take articles of clothing, furs, trinkets, guns, etc from battle scenes, whether from homesteaders, forts, or encampments without the knowledge that these places had infected peoples.

Also, just as an example of the "good news" that ought to be shared. In 1832 the US Congress budgeted 20 million dollars to fight smallpox among the Indians. That's in 1832 money btw.
11-01-2013 03:23 PM
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Vobserver Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
(11-01-2013 03:23 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 11:40 AM)Vobserver Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 11:14 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 04:46 PM)Vobserver Wrote:  Exactly. They included smallpox infested blankets in 'trade goods' used in trade with Amerinds for furs, feathers and artifacts.

Sad that anyone would believe these distortions of history.

That is not a distortion. The 'Noble Savage' is a distortion, but the wholesale slaughter of women and children, both by intentional biological attack and by simple shooting and stabbing is documented history.

Custer spent most of his brief Indian Wars career slaughtering women and babies in Lakota, Dakota and other Siouxan encampments.

Not to in any way diminish the vast loss of life by defeated peoples and the slaughter of innocents committed throughout the planet by all ethnic groups against their own or others throughout history but to say "intentional biological attack is documented history" is a gross distortion of the facts as it concerns the Americas. In fact, there is no documented fact to fully prove such a case ever existed. Most diehard liberal "indian genocide" activists always refer to the letters from two British officers during the French and Indian War (Amherst and Bouquet). In that letter, Amherst suggested utilizing using smallpox infected blankets but no where is it ever suggested this action ever occurred. In fact, Bouquet expressed reservations in his letter back to Amherst because of the fear of infecting his own men.

Another instance used by Indian genocide activists is to refer to a letter from Trent, commander of a local militia at Fort Pitt in 1763 which was under seige. The activists take a line out of this letter and "interpret" the meaning to be other than what the meaning is when you read the entire letter. Here's the quote "Out of our regard for them (two Indian chiefs) we gave them two blankets and a handkerchief out of the smallpox hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect." These two sentences make one think they intentionally gave infected blankets to the Indians. However, here's the rest of the letter:

"[May] 24th [1763] The Turtles Heart a principal Warrior of the Delawares and Mamaltee a Chief came within a small distance of the Fort Mr. McKee went out to them and they made a Speech letting us know that all our [POSTS] as [at] Ligonier was destroyed, that great numbers of Indians [were coming and] that out of regard to us, they had prevailed on 6 Nations [not to] attack us but give us time to go down the Country and they desired we would set of immediately. The Commanding Officer thanked them, let them know that we had everything we wanted, that we could defend it against all the Indians in the Woods, that we had three large Armys marching to Chastise those Indians that had struck us, told them to take care of their Women and Children, but not to tell any other Natives, they said they would go and speak to their Chiefs and come and tell us what they said, they returned and said they would hold fast of the Chain of friendship. Out of our regard to them we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect. They then told us that Ligonier had been attacked, but that the Enemy were beat of."

Basically, the white commanders gave blankets that came from the hospital to the Indians as a gesture. These were the "friendly" Indians that they were working with and had shown kindness to them. It doesn't state the blankets were infected and there's no indication they were. Would a soldier willingly take an infected blanket from the hospital to give to Indians with the very good chance he too would be infected?

Now I know you'll come back with a list of other atrocities committed against the Indians throughout the last few hundred years. I won't argue their validity. It occurred. However, a true historian looks at primary source documents and evidence, not tall tales, biased oral history, etc.

One must remember, concerning smallpox, that whites were not immune and there was no vaccination during this era. Whites had a higher survival rate but to think whites could intentionally give smallpox to indians without the danger of infecting their own people is ludicrous. Half a million Europeans died every year from Smallpox during that time. Millions of Indians died from smallpox. The evidence suggest most infections of smallpox from whites to Indians actually occurred during and after engagements of conflict. Indians would take articles of clothing, furs, trinkets, guns, etc from battle scenes, whether from homesteaders, forts, or encampments without the knowledge that these places had infected peoples.

Also, just as an example of the "good news" that ought to be shared. In 1832 the US Congress budgeted 20 million dollars to fight smallpox among the Indians. That's in 1832 money btw.

I read this as exactly opposite. Why would they give blankets from the smallpox hospital rather than from general stores unless it was their intent to infect? Of course, they would not write in official papers what they were trying to do, but then 'the desired effect' when linked to 'blankets from smallpox hospital' is pretty clearly an allusion to the hope that the infection would be passed on along with the blankets. As to your argument about lack of immunity among whites; that is true, but natural immunity among whites is much higher than among Amerinds, and many people working in smallpox hospitals were survivors of the disease, and therefore immune.

That 1832 bill was to fight smallpox among 'tame' Indians. An entirely different matter than trying to save 'savages'.
11-01-2013 03:48 PM
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chiefsfan Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
The NCAA has declared this thread hostile and abusive
11-01-2013 03:49 PM
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Vobserver Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
(11-01-2013 03:49 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  The NCAA has declared this thread hostile and abusive

So have I. lol
11-01-2013 03:56 PM
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CatMom Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
The historical back and forth really neeeds to stop. If not I will be making a new thread and placing it in the General Discussion Forum.
11-01-2013 04:25 PM
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chiefsfan Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
(11-01-2013 04:25 PM)CatMom Wrote:  The historical back and forth really neeeds to stop. If not I will be making a new thread and placing it in the General Discussion Forum.

I like that idea better. I would hate to tell the NCAA about what you guys were discussing.
11-01-2013 04:37 PM
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mathenis89 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Andrew Jackson (WKU) Suspended
(11-01-2013 03:23 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  
(11-01-2013 11:40 AM)Vobserver Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 11:14 PM)WKUApollo Wrote:  
(10-31-2013 04:46 PM)Vobserver Wrote:  Exactly. They included smallpox infested blankets in 'trade goods' used in trade with Amerinds for furs, feathers and artifacts.

Sad that anyone would believe these distortions of history.

That is not a distortion. The 'Noble Savage' is a distortion, but the wholesale slaughter of women and children, both by intentional biological attack and by simple shooting and stabbing is documented history.

Custer spent most of his brief Indian Wars career slaughtering women and babies in Lakota, Dakota and other Siouxan encampments.

Not to in any way diminish the vast loss of life by defeated peoples and the slaughter of innocents committed throughout the planet by all ethnic groups against their own or others throughout history but to say "intentional biological attack is documented history" is a gross distortion of the facts as it concerns the Americas. In fact, there is no documented fact to fully prove such a case ever existed. Most diehard liberal "indian genocide" activists always refer to the letters from two British officers during the French and Indian War (Amherst and Bouquet). In that letter, Amherst suggested utilizing using smallpox infected blankets but no where is it ever suggested this action ever occurred. In fact, Bouquet expressed reservations in his letter back to Amherst because of the fear of infecting his own men.

Another instance used by Indian genocide activists is to refer to a letter from Trent, commander of a local militia at Fort Pitt in 1763 which was under seige. The activists take a line out of this letter and "interpret" the meaning to be other than what the meaning is when you read the entire letter. Here's the quote "Out of our regard for them (two Indian chiefs) we gave them two blankets and a handkerchief out of the smallpox hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect." These two sentences make one think they intentionally gave infected blankets to the Indians. However, here's the rest of the letter:

"[May] 24th [1763] The Turtles Heart a principal Warrior of the Delawares and Mamaltee a Chief came within a small distance of the Fort Mr. McKee went out to them and they made a Speech letting us know that all our [POSTS] as [at] Ligonier was destroyed, that great numbers of Indians [were coming and] that out of regard to us, they had prevailed on 6 Nations [not to] attack us but give us time to go down the Country and they desired we would set of immediately. The Commanding Officer thanked them, let them know that we had everything we wanted, that we could defend it against all the Indians in the Woods, that we had three large Armys marching to Chastise those Indians that had struck us, told them to take care of their Women and Children, but not to tell any other Natives, they said they would go and speak to their Chiefs and come and tell us what they said, they returned and said they would hold fast of the Chain of friendship. Out of our regard to them we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect. They then told us that Ligonier had been attacked, but that the Enemy were beat of."

Basically, the white commanders gave blankets that came from the hospital to the Indians as a gesture. These were the "friendly" Indians that they were working with and had shown kindness to them. It doesn't state the blankets were infected and there's no indication they were. Would a soldier willingly take an infected blanket from the hospital to give to Indians with the very good chance he too would be infected?

Now I know you'll come back with a list of other atrocities committed against the Indians throughout the last few hundred years. I won't argue their validity. It occurred. However, a true historian looks at primary source documents and evidence, not tall tales, biased oral history, etc.

One must remember, concerning smallpox, that whites were not immune and there was no vaccination during this era. Whites had a higher survival rate but to think whites could intentionally give smallpox to indians without the danger of infecting their own people is ludicrous. Half a million Europeans died every year from Smallpox during that time. Millions of Indians died from smallpox. The evidence suggest most infections of smallpox from whites to Indians actually occurred during and after engagements of conflict. Indians would take articles of clothing, furs, trinkets, guns, etc from battle scenes, whether from homesteaders, forts, or encampments without the knowledge that these places had infected peoples.

Also, just as an example of the "good news" that ought to be shared. In 1832 the US Congress budgeted 20 million dollars to fight smallpox among the Indians. That's in 1832 money btw.

Of COURSE you had to politicize it.
11-02-2013 01:27 AM
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