It's not who you think it is.

I came across this quote recently:

"If the UCLA teams of the late 1960s and early 1970s were subjected to the same kind of scrutiny Jerry Tarkanian and his players have been UCLA would probably have to forfeit about 8 national titles and be on probation for the next 100 years." - Bill Walton

Then there's this quote referring to booster Sam Gilbert funneling money to UCLA players in the Wooden era:

"The only team with a higher payroll was the Lakers." - Jerry Tarkanian

Kind of makes you wonder about programs that appear to be squeaky clean. In that vein, there's this priceless quote from Jonathan Werner, author of the blog Dubism:

"I don't care how much hate mail I get for this, but I'm convinced that Mike Krzyzewski is like the church minister who secretly likes little boys. He's got all the respect of the people who could out him, but none of them do because, after all, he is the minister. Besides, he's also that hypocritical a**hole who preaches about character and discipline, then stomps around on the sideline like the biggest petulant sh!thead out there. Face it, how the hell else does this school attract the 'one and done' talent they now b!tch about." - Jonathan Werner

Could have been writing about Joe Paterno before he got caught. Basketball games are only a month away.

Of course, the answer is Kentucky.

But one of your assumptions is odd to me. UCLA as squeaky clean? I don't think of them that way at all. If any Western program appears squeaky clean to me, it's Stanford.

The Squeaky Clean programs in my mind among the elite are Duke & Butler, and that's it The only others are the service academies & Ivies but they're not elite. I have 1st-hand knowledge that Butler is indeed squeeky clean because my brother is one of their biggest boosters under age 30 and is friends with most of their athletic department.

Coach K doesn't have to pay players. Just like Calipari doesn't have to (at least, not anymore). Players come to them due to their past success. Besides, I was under the impression that Duke doesn't get many one-and-dones.

(10-11-2013 03:33 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Of course, the answer is Kentucky.

But one of your assumptions is odd to me. UCLA as squeaky clean? I don't think of them that way at all. If any Western program appears squeaky clean to me, it's Stanford.

The Squeaky Clean programs in my mind among the elite are Duke & Butler, and that's it The only others are the service academies & Ivies but they're not elite. I have 1st-hand knowledge that Butler is indeed squeeky clean because my brother is one of their biggest boosters under age 30 and is friends with most of their athletic department.

Coach K doesn't have to pay players. Just like Calipari doesn't have to (at least, not anymore). Players come to them due to their past success. Besides, I was under the impression that Duke doesn't get many one-and-dones.

In the past, one-and-dones were rare at Duke - Corey Magette (1999) and Luol Deng (2004), but a trend has been developing recently with a one-and-done in 2 of the past 3 years - Kyrie Irving (2011) and Austin Rivers (2012).

Let's see what happens with Jabari Parker this year. Everyone will be shocked if he's not one and done. Then look at the players Duke is currently recruiting - 3 of the top 4 and 4 of the top ten:

#1 - Jahlil Okafor
#2 - Myles turner
#4 - Tyus Jones
#9 - Justise Winslow

As Werner says, Duke is now attracting one-and-done talent while they hadn't been for years before Irving even with Coach K's credentials. What's changed?

As for UCLA, you may not think of them as squeaky clean, but John Wooden's name simply doesn't come up when sleazy coaches are mentioned. You won't find "Saint John" on a list with Tarkanian, Calipari, Clem Haskins, etc.

(10-11-2013 03:33 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Of course, the answer is Kentucky.

But one of your assumptions is odd to me. UCLA as squeaky clean? I don't think of them that way at all. If any Western program appears squeaky clean to me, it's Stanford.

The Squeaky Clean programs in my mind among the elite are Duke & Butler, and that's it The only others are the service academies & Ivies but they're not elite. I have 1st-hand knowledge that Butler is indeed squeeky clean because my brother is one of their biggest boosters under age 30 and is friends with most of their athletic department.

Coach K doesn't have to pay players. Just like Calipari doesn't have to (at least, not anymore). Players come to them due to their past success. Besides, I was under the impression that Duke doesn't get many one-and-dones.

In the past, one-and-dones were rare at Duke - Corey Magette (1999) and Luol Deng (2004), but a trend has been developing recently with a one-and-done in 2 of the past 3 years - Kyrie Irving (2011) and Austin Rivers (2012).

Let's see what happens with Jabari Parker this year. Everyone will be shocked if he's not one and done. Then look at the players Duke is currently recruiting - 3 of the top 4 and 4 of the top ten:

#1 - Jahlil Okafor
#2 - Myles turner
#4 - Tyus Jones
#9 - Justise Winslow

As Werner says, Duke is now attracting one-and-done talent while they hadn't been for years before Irving even with Coach K's credentials. What's changed?

As for UCLA, you may not think of them as squeaky clean, but John Wooden's name simply doesn't come up when sleazy coaches are mentioned. You won't find "Saint John" on a list with Tarkanian, Calipari, Clem Haskins, etc.

(10-11-2013 04:25 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  As for UCLA, you may not think of them as squeaky clean, but John Wooden's name simply doesn't come up when sleazy coaches are mentioned. You won't find "Saint John" on a list with Tarkanian, Calipari, Clem Haskins, etc.

Probably because he's ancient. No one mentions Adolph Rupp in the same breath as Tarkanian and Haskins either. But he got UK the death penalty.

BTW, it says a lot about UK that they named their arena after the only basketball coach in history to earn his program the death penalty.

Kentucky in the 50s was extremely dirty...

(10-11-2013 04:36 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 04:25 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  As for UCLA, you may not think of them as squeaky clean, but John Wooden's name simply doesn't come up when sleazy coaches are mentioned. You won't find "Saint John" on a list with Tarkanian, Calipari, Clem Haskins, etc.

Probably because he's ancient. No one mentions Adolph Rupp in the same breath as Tarkanian and Haskins either. But he got UK the death penalty.

BTW, it says a lot about UK that they named their arena after the only basketball coach in history to earn his program the death penalty.

It's got nothing to do with him being ancient. He was always revered and was always considered to be the epitome of class.

Adolph Rupp did not get Kentucky the death penalty.

What happened was several starting players were shaving points in cooperation with gamblers. Rupp had nothing to do with that. If UK was really paying them that well, they probably wouldn't have been interested in the gamblers.

(10-11-2013 08:09 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 04:36 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 04:25 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  As for UCLA, you may not think of them as squeaky clean, but John Wooden's name simply doesn't come up when sleazy coaches are mentioned. You won't find "Saint John" on a list with Tarkanian, Calipari, Clem Haskins, etc.

Probably because he's ancient. No one mentions Adolph Rupp in the same breath as Tarkanian and Haskins either. But he got UK the death penalty.

BTW, it says a lot about UK that they named their arena after the only basketball coach in history to earn his program the death penalty.

It's got nothing to do with him being ancient. He was always revered and was always considered to be the epitome of class.

Adolph Rupp did not get Kentucky the death penalty.

Right, Rupp was just a racist, not a cheater.

He was also anal retentive. But that's not a crime...

Rupp obviously didn't pay enough to get Oscar Robertson from Cincinnati. But he did try to recruit him.

(10-11-2013 08:27 AM)bullet Wrote:  Rupp obviously didn't pay enough to get Oscar Robertson from Cincinnati. But he did try to recruit him.

I doubt all the gold in Ft. Knox would have been enough to convince the Big O to play for a racist jerk like Rupp. Robertson always had very high standards, and I seriously doubt he'd have lowered them to play for Rupp...

(10-11-2013 04:25 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  As Werner says, Duke is now attracting one-and-done talent while they hadn't been for years before Irving even with Coach K's credentials. What's changed?

For a while there Coach K didn't want one and dones, correct? He felt those type of players weren't the right "fit" for Duke. Then, after a couple of subpar seasons (by Duke standards) he had evidently had a change of heart and actually started heavily recruiting those type players.

Not only did Duke not have many one and dones, until Elton Brand almost all of the players stayed through their senior year. Dawkins, Alarie, Ferry, Hill, Laetner, Hurley, Parks, Battier, etc.

(10-11-2013 08:33 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 04:25 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  As Werner says, Duke is now attracting one-and-done talent while they hadn't been for years before Irving even with Coach K's credentials. What's changed?

For a while there Coach K didn't want one and dones, correct? He felt those type of players weren't the right "fit" for Duke. Then, after a couple of subpar seasons (by Duke standards) he had evidently had a change of heart and actually started heavily recruiting those type players.

Exactly.

In the history of college basketball?

USL got the death penalty.

(10-11-2013 08:09 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(10-11-2013 04:36 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Probably because he's ancient. No one mentions Adolph Rupp in the same breath as Tarkanian and Haskins either. But he got UK the death penalty.

It's got nothing to do with him being ancient. He was always revered and was always considered to be the epitome of class.

Adolph Rupp did not get Kentucky the death penalty.

If we are going to place blame on Wooden for what Gilbert did, then we have do blame Rupp for his players being in with gamblers. If we say it wasn't Rupp's fault, then the same can be said for Wooden with Gilbert. Especially since by all accounts Gilbert was involved with players only after they got to campus, not before.

(10-11-2013 08:36 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  Not only did Duke not have many one and dones, until Elton Brand almost all of the players stayed through their senior year. Dawkins, Alarie, Ferry, Hill, Laetner, Hurley, Parks, Battier, etc.

You named a bunch of players who played in the era were only a small number of players left early. The ones who played later, such as Battier, were not high enough draft pick options to really leave early.

I am always extra suspicious of anyone in any walk of life who goes out of his or her way to claim that they operate on a higher ethical plane than everyone else. It has been my experience that when people work that hard to prove that their a good guy, they are almost always the worst kind of person. So when someone says something like, "You never know who you can trust but I'm a good guy," that is red flag material all the way. Also, when someone refers to themselves as naive, they are almost always horrible people who want you to believe that they are naive so they can exploit you.

Therefore, when I hear a commentator laud a coach for "doing things the right way," or when I hear the coach himself make that claim, I just assume that coach is a brazen cheater and his program is filthy. In almost every single instance that has proven to be true.

In life it's the same thing. If a salesman or a vendor I come across starts talking about being a family man or a devout Christian or something of that nature before it is absolutely appropriate for him to do so, I make sure I check for my wallet when they leave the office because I then know that they are a charlatan and quite probably a thief.

Feel better, Bit and Bearcat? The loathing for UK basketball is like boiling water... every once in a while you have to lift the lid to let out the steam. It's been awhile since anyone has brought up an opportunity to discuss our devil of a coach. It is news that he was the cause for the point shaving death penalty for the program... thanks for the facts. The man died 35 years ago... let it go.

I've never seen anything real showing Rupp to be unusually racist. There aren't many people born around the turn of the century or before who weren't at least somewhat racist. Most of his reputation I think is due to the fact that he was late to the party in successfully recruiting African American players and the UTEP championship game contrasting the all white and all black starting 5s. Kentucky played in the NCAA against black players in the 50s when Mississippi St. was refusing.