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Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
There's no question about that, Pitt is definitely a football-first school. Now, it's an underachieving football school to be sure but it is a football school nonetheless.

Just look at all of the players we have put in the college and pro football halls of fame. I'm sure we're at or near the top of the league in both categories. And it's not all ancient history either. For example, what other ACC team can compete with a top three current NFL player triumvirate of Darrelle Revis, Larry Fitzgerald and Shady McCoy? There may be one or two league schools that can match that trio but I will guarantee you there are no more than one or two.

Two years ago, whenever this whole expansionpalooza re-ignited, it was positively surreal to this longtime season ticket holder in both major sports to hear Pitt referred to as a "basketball school." I thought that was insane given our respective long-term histories in those sports but it is also clear that the attention span of the average message board poster is approximately three years. As such, anything that happened prior to 2010 is ancient history.

Still, using that same metric, the best NBA player we've ever produced was likely either Billy Knight or Charles Smith. They were both rock solid NBA players but they do not compare in their respective sport to the likes of Dan Marino, Tony Dorsett, Chris Doleman, Hugh Green, Mark May, Mike Ditka, Curtis Martin, etc., in the NFL. It's just not even debatable.

I think Syracuse is more nuanced. I think they probably are basketball-first but with an OUTSTANDING football history - again better than almost every other ACC school. Pitt is nowhere near as balanced and if the football program starts to win again people will see that in full force.
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2013 05:46 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
10-15-2013 05:36 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-15-2013 05:02 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  
(10-14-2013 11:22 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(10-14-2013 09:01 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  ...people felt GT was undeserving that year, but Colorado (which had to score a TD on 5th down to beat... Missouri... To me the Yellow Jackets were 1990 football champs, period!

I just remember the consensus seemed to be that neither deserved it, but GT schedule was criticized as so weak that Colorado got the nod by many, and that seemed to be the pervasive feeling around where I lived in central PA. And as Yinzer said, UC had a loss, a tie and really a second loss...and still got the nod in the AP over GT. Such was the perception of the ACC in the 80s, particularly prior to FSU.

Personally, I thought, at the time, that GT deserved it more because they at least went undefeated.

That's just bizarre to me. At one point that season, the #1 offense in the entire country was UVa, and the #1 defense in the entire country was Clemson. Ga Tech played both, plus #25 S. Carolina, a 7-4 Va Tech team, and Georgia - then pounded #19 Nebraska in the Citrus Bowl 45-21.

So folks outside of the Southeast thought SC, Clemson, Virginia, Va Tech, Georgia and Nebraska was a "weak" schedule, huh? 01-wingedeagle

You know that most people don't analyze their opinions for rationality, right? I mean, the final AP poll is pretty much verification of that train of thought.
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2013 05:51 PM by CrazyPaco.)
10-15-2013 05:49 PM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
What I remember most about that year was that Virginia was the ACC team people seemed most excited about for most of that year. They had a pretty good QB named Shawn Moore, I believe, who was pretty good but was WAY overhyped by the media. They also had Herman Moore, a very good college WR. I seem to recall they had a good TE too but I can't remember that kid's name.

I also remember thinking that Virginia had really plain helmets and unis. They looked kind of bush league they were so plain. Also, for some reason, at some point during that season, some idiot burnt a large portion of the astroturf field at UVa so they had kind of a weird dark turf patch on a portion of the field. It looked ridiculous but what else could they have done?

Anyway, all season long, the talk was about Virginia and how explosive they were on offense and how they were curb stomping the rest of the ACC. Georgia Tech was more of an afterthought in the national discussion. I can't even name a GT player from that team. I think their QB was named Steven Jones or something like that. Sean Jones maybe? They also had a good LB but I have no idea what his name was? Truthfully, that GT team was really a pretty non-descript team. It was basically the Bobby Ross show. As I recall, they ran kind of a hybrid between a pro style offense and a veer - a bit like what Syracuse also ran at that time.

My point is that I don't think anyone expected Georgia Tech to beat Virginia and when the Yellow Jackets did, I think it kind of confused everyone. I don't remember how late in the season that game was played but I seem to recall that it was pretty late in the season. I also remember that UVa fell apart after that game.
10-15-2013 06:12 PM
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ChrisLords Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-15-2013 06:12 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  What I remember most about that year was that Virginia was the ACC team people seemed most excited about for most of that year. They had a pretty good QB named Shawn Moore, I believe, who was pretty good but was WAY overhyped by the media. They also had Herman Moore, a very good college WR. I seem to recall they had a good TE too but I can't remember that kid's name.

I also remember thinking that Virginia had really plain helmets and unis. They looked kind of bush league they were so plain. Also, for some reason, at some point during that season, some idiot burnt a large portion of the astroturf field at UVa so they had kind of a weird dark turf patch on a portion of the field. It looked ridiculous but what else could they have done?

Anyway, all season long, the talk was about Virginia and how explosive they were on offense and how they were curb stomping the rest of the ACC. Georgia Tech was more of an afterthought in the national discussion. I can't even name a GT player from that team. I think their QB was named Steven Jones or something like that. Sean Jones maybe? They also had a good LB but I have no idea what his name was? Truthfully, that GT team was really a pretty non-descript team. It was basically the Bobby Ross show. As I recall, they ran kind of a hybrid between a pro style offense and a veer - a bit like what Syracuse also ran at that time.

My point is that I don't think anyone expected Georgia Tech to beat Virginia and when the Yellow Jackets did, I think it kind of confused everyone. I don't remember how late in the season that game was played but I seem to recall that it was pretty late in the season. I also remember that UVa fell apart after that game.

That was 1 year before I started watching college football but I believe UVA started out 7-0 ranked #1 in the nation and got a Sugar bowl bid. They then lost 4 of their last 5 games which lead to some famous shirts worn here in the commonwealth that said :

UVA best in the Nation
crossed out
UVA best in the ACC
crossed out
UVA best in Virginia
crossed out
UVA best in Charlottesville

The shirts said VT 38 UVA 13 and was VT's firsts home game on television.

This also lead to big changes in how teams were selected for major bowls because up until that point they were having to be selected earlier and earlier in the year. After that, the major bowls started having ties to conferences so that nothing like a 7-4 UVA team in the Sugar bowl could happen again.
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2013 08:33 PM by ChrisLords.)
10-15-2013 08:32 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-15-2013 05:36 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Just look at all of the players we have put in the college and pro football halls of fame. I'm sure we're at or near the top of the league in both categories. And it's not all ancient history either. For example, what other ACC team can compete with a top three current NFL player triumvirate of Darrelle Revis, Larry Fitzgerald and Shady McCoy? There may be one or two league schools that can match that trio but I will guarantee you there are no more than one or two.

Who do you have besides those 3?
10-15-2013 11:42 PM
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CrazyPaco Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-15-2013 11:42 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  
(10-15-2013 05:36 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Just look at all of the players we have put in the college and pro football halls of fame. I'm sure we're at or near the top of the league in both categories. And it's not all ancient history either. For example, what other ACC team can compete with a top three current NFL player triumvirate of Darrelle Revis, Larry Fitzgerald and Shady McCoy? There may be one or two league schools that can match that trio but I will guarantee you there are no more than one or two.

Who do you have besides those 3?

You mean other Pro-bowlers currently in the league? Andy Lee of the 49ers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/st...id=5176786

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-an...e-rankings

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/co...ittsburgh/
10-16-2013 02:06 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-15-2013 05:36 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  And it's not all ancient history either. For example, what other ACC team can compete with a top three current NFL player triumvirate of Darrelle Revis, Larry Fitzgerald and Shady McCoy? There may be one or two league schools that can match that trio but I will guarantee you there are no more than one or two.

I was bored, so I decided to look up a few. 05-stirthepot

There are three for sure that can match

Miami - Frank Gore, Andre Johnson, Jimmy Graham, Vince Wilfork, and Ed Reed

FSU - Anquan Boldin, Darnell Dockett, Antonio Cramartie, and Sebastian Janikowski (although perhaps they deserve some negative points for Christian Ponder)

NC State - Mario Williams, Phillip Rivers, Russell Wilson


The trickiest part after that is evaluating LeSean McCoy. Because as good most of us think he is, he's had only one really good season, and statistically has simply been an average starting running back outside of that. I point this out because you have one or two more that have a good 1-2 punch, so it's just evaluating that third one.

Ga. Tech - Calvin Johnson, Demarayius Thomas
BC - Matt Ryan, BJ Raji
Maryland - Vernon Davis and Randy Starks
10-16-2013 02:46 PM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-16-2013 02:46 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(10-15-2013 05:36 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  And it's not all ancient history either. For example, what other ACC team can compete with a top three current NFL player triumvirate of Darrelle Revis, Larry Fitzgerald and Shady McCoy? There may be one or two league schools that can match that trio but I will guarantee you there are no more than one or two.

I was bored, so I decided to look up a few. 05-stirthepot

There are three for sure that can match

Miami - Frank Gore, Andre Johnson, Jimmy Graham, Vince Wilfork, and Ed Reed

FSU - Anquan Boldin, Darnell Dockett, Antonio Cramartie, and Sebastian Janikowski (although perhaps they deserve some negative points for Christian Ponder)

NC State - Mario Williams, Phillip Rivers, Russell Wilson


The trickiest part after that is evaluating LeSean McCoy. Because as good most of us think he is, he's had only one really good season, and statistically has simply been an average starting running back outside of that. I point this out because you have one or two more that have a good 1-2 punch, so it's just evaluating that third one.

Ga. Tech - Calvin Johnson, Demarayius Thomas
BC - Matt Ryan, BJ Raji
Maryland - Vernon Davis and Randy Starks

With the possible exception of Miami, none of the other schools listed match the three I provided, IMHO. NC State's isn't even close.

As for Shady McCoy, he played in the most pass happy system in the league under Andy Reid and yet twice registered 1,000 yard rushing seasons which, BTW, is precisely how many 1,000 yard rushing seasons Bryan Westbrook had in his entire career.

This year McCoy is in a run-happy system and he currently leads the entire NFL in rushing by nearly 100 yards through six games. McCoy's 4.7 YPC career average is better than Marshawn Lynch (4.2), Doug Martin (4.3), Arian Foster (4.5), and Frank Gore (4.6). He also has more career receiving yards than all of those players, which speaks to his versatility.

Shady hasn't had one good year, he's had four out of five and is well on his way to five out of six. McCoy had a so-so rookie year, followed by two excellent years, followed by last year's injury plagued season. This year he is enjoying the best season of his career and is easily the league's top rusher through the first third of the season. I guess what I'm saying is that he's not remotely a fluke and if anything he is extremely underrated.

As a Pitt running back I would put Shady just behind Dorsett on our list of great backs and we've had a lot of talent there including NFL HOFer Curtis Martin and Ironhead Heyward.
10-16-2013 03:57 PM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-15-2013 11:42 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  
(10-15-2013 05:36 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Just look at all of the players we have put in the college and pro football halls of fame. I'm sure we're at or near the top of the league in both categories. And it's not all ancient history either. For example, what other ACC team can compete with a top three current NFL player triumvirate of Darrelle Revis, Larry Fitzgerald and Shady McCoy? There may be one or two league schools that can match that trio but I will guarantee you there are no more than one or two.

Who do you have besides those 3?

Well you have now been given four multiple pro bowlers in McCoy, Revis, Fitzgerald and Lee. How many more do you need? Who else has four?

Better yet, perhaps we should just skip this BS and go straight to the topic of NFL Hall of Famers - the ultimate Pro Bowl team? In case you are wondering, Pitt also paces the ACC in in that category with eight - including five in the past eight years so don't give me any nonsense about it being ancient history. We are tied with Ohio State and Michigan on that front and just behind Southern California (11) and Notre Dame (10).

My point is we don't have to apologize to anyone for being in this league because we have a more prolific history than almost all of the rest of the league. Now, we do need to pick it up and that cannot be debated. However, when I hear someone deride Pitt as a "basketball school" or question our credentials for playing in the ACC, I just laugh it off as pretty compelling evidence that the person making those moronic claims has no idea what the hell he or she is talking about.
10-16-2013 04:08 PM
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Post: #110
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-16-2013 03:57 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  With the possible exception of Miami, none of the other schools listed match the three I provided, IMHO. NC State's isn't even close.

As I stated above, I think you overestimate McCoy's stature and status based on his potential, or how he could have been used. He ranks number 17 among active players in rush attempts and number 18 in rush yards, so it's not like he has shown that he is being grossly underused statistically (for the record, I love watching his run. He seems to glide).

IMO he is not in the category of the other two, both being top two/three at their position. Hence why we see the comparisons very differently. But anyway, I was just a little bored then so I just listed the teams who had comparable players active.

Also McCoy is not a "multiple" pro-bowler." McCoy was only in one.
(This post was last modified: 10-16-2013 04:59 PM by adcorbett.)
10-16-2013 04:54 PM
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omniorange Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
Like most things, this notion of name the best in the NFL at any given moment varies every few years.

It wasn't that long ago SU could boast McNabb, Harrison, Sweeney and Bullock all in the league at the same time operating a high level.

I can only imagine what type of years Miami and FSU fans could show. It wouldn't surprise if some were 6, 7, or 8 deep.

Cheers,
Neil
10-16-2013 06:37 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #112
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-16-2013 02:06 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(10-15-2013 11:42 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  
(10-15-2013 05:36 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Just look at all of the players we have put in the college and pro football halls of fame. I'm sure we're at or near the top of the league in both categories. And it's not all ancient history either. For example, what other ACC team can compete with a top three current NFL player triumvirate of Darrelle Revis, Larry Fitzgerald and Shady McCoy? There may be one or two league schools that can match that trio but I will guarantee you there are no more than one or two.

Who do you have besides those 3?

You mean other Pro-bowlers currently in the league? Andy Lee of the 49ers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/st...id=5176786

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-an...e-rankings

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/co...ittsburgh/

Thanks for a bunch of links that didn't answer my question.
10-16-2013 09:05 PM
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Marge Schott Offline
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Post: #113
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-16-2013 04:08 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  
(10-15-2013 11:42 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  
(10-15-2013 05:36 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Just look at all of the players we have put in the college and pro football halls of fame. I'm sure we're at or near the top of the league in both categories. And it's not all ancient history either. For example, what other ACC team can compete with a top three current NFL player triumvirate of Darrelle Revis, Larry Fitzgerald and Shady McCoy? There may be one or two league schools that can match that trio but I will guarantee you there are no more than one or two.

Who do you have besides those 3?

Well you have now been given four multiple pro bowlers in McCoy, Revis, Fitzgerald and Lee. How many more do you need? Who else has four?

Don't be so butt hurt, Pitt.

It was a simple question, aimed at finding out who else you have in the NFL of worth at present.
10-16-2013 09:11 PM
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Post: #114
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-16-2013 09:05 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  
(10-16-2013 02:06 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(10-15-2013 11:42 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  
(10-15-2013 05:36 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Just look at all of the players we have put in the college and pro football halls of fame. I'm sure we're at or near the top of the league in both categories. And it's not all ancient history either. For example, what other ACC team can compete with a top three current NFL player triumvirate of Darrelle Revis, Larry Fitzgerald and Shady McCoy? There may be one or two league schools that can match that trio but I will guarantee you there are no more than one or two.

Who do you have besides those 3?

You mean other Pro-bowlers currently in the league? Andy Lee of the 49ers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/st...id=5176786

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-an...e-rankings

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/co...ittsburgh/

Thanks for a bunch of links that didn't answer my question.

You mean the links that included independent rankings of NFL pipelines, draft choices, and a list of every NFL player from Pitt past and present? OK. 01-wingedeagle
10-17-2013 11:25 AM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #115
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
I don't have anything new to add to this thread right now, but I thought it was too good a thread to let disappear off the front page so I am bumping it.
10-30-2013 09:14 AM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #116
RE: Expansion through the years from a Virginia Tech perspective (Metro/BE/ACC)
(10-08-2013 01:00 AM)4x4hokies Wrote:  There was a thread a while back about why Virginia Tech hates Louisville. I ran across a thread on TSL about that recently that referenced these articles from 2004 covering that and more.

So read this if you've ever wondered:
Why VT hates Louisville?
Why there was no love lost on the Big East?
What role Warner and Casteen had in getting VT into the ACC?

Also read for a good recap of the failed ACC expansion in 1999 and the drama that led to the 2003 expansion from Virginia Tech's point of view.

It is a 4-part series so you can pick the time period that interests you:
http://virginiatech.sportswar.com/tag/co...rs-series/

I think the Penn State-BIG EAST part in the 80's was a little off, or could have been written better at the very least, but overall it was very good. Great find!
10-31-2013 09:09 PM
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