(10-04-2013 12:22 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-04-2013 10:41 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  

I like the idea of U.S.C. and Stanford in the private conference. I left them out of my setup because of logistics. I think they would still want to play with limited exceptions a West coast schedule.

I'm a structure guy, form follows function. I just don't like 5 conference no matter who they are or how they are constructed. There is much to be said for your suggestions, but could you give an illustration for how to compact that into just 4 conferences. 14 is just too awkward and limiting. 12 is fine except for networks. 16 is fine. 10 doesn't provide enough content for a network. 18 is my favorite for geographical reasons and at least twenty provides 4 divisional games. But with the needs of content for network programming we need at least 16.

I'm still playing with models. 4 x 16 is still the best for total quality. 4 x 18 is still the best for internal reasons for any conference adopting it. But 4 x 18 gets too thin out West. The strongest model by far is the 3 x 20, but its popularity would have to be proven. 3 x 24 runs into the same problems as the 4 x 18. It gets thin out West.

As we've discussed before, I have an ideal view which means adjusting the existing PAC, SEC, ACC, and B1G for best fit, but no member of those conferences will be asked to leave or would likely move at this point, so everyone stays pat. Starting next year:

SEC -14
B1G - 14
PAC - 12
ACC - 14 + Notre Dame

The SEC and B1G do not get to 20 schools each without losing integrity or the demise of the ACC, so I will not spend the time on 4 x 20 since it is unlikely. 4 x 16 is so clean, but there is zero chance that any existing P5 school will be forced to demote, and I cannot see any voluntarily doing so. In a 4 conference setup, the number has to be 18, and I just do not see the SEC and B1G making the necessary compromises to make it happen.

There is only one move that would be a surprise if it did NOT happen, and that is Kansas to the B1G. Texas is the first domino. The PAC is obviously in the best position to meet all of the demands for Texas as well as the Big 12 in general, which is a total sweep of Texoma. That would allow for a 6 team pod and alleviate some of the travel and culture concerns.

SEC - 14 +
B1G - 14 + Kansas
PAC - 12 + Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State (18)
ACC - 14 + Notre Dame


From there, WVU is the only available school that is not seen as a compromise for the SEC. The B1G has no other schools that are uncompromising until some new schools that are contiguous become AAU. I just don't see how 4 x 18 happens if the PAC, SEC, B1G, and ACC stay intact.

(10-09-2013 11:08 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I don't think many folks want to see Vandy go anywhere. Having Vandy is what separates us from real idiot conferences, like the Big12.

We can always point to Vandy!

The SEC has several schools they can point to...

(10-09-2013 11:24 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 11:08 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I don't think many folks want to see Vandy go anywhere. Having Vandy is what separates us from real idiot conferences, like the Big12.

We can always point to Vandy!

The SEC has several schools they can point to...

Yes, and remember that my OP suggested the move in 10 years when the GoR's are more manageable. That is another 10 years of every school improving, which has been the trend.

That wasn't to say that we are an idiot conference. Vandy, Florida/Georgia, A&M, and Alabama are all great----good schools, in that order. The only down ones are all in one state...

It's one reason I'm glad we didn't take WVU.

(10-09-2013 11:30 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  That wasn't to say that we are an idiot conference. Vandy, Florida/Georgia, A&M, and Alabama are all great----good schools, in that order. The only down ones are all in one state...

It's one reason I'm glad we didn't take WVU.

WVU is just as good a school as Alabama, no matter what you think. But due to the mission WVU serves for the State of West Virginia we will never have the academic status many schools enjoy. A big part of the academic rating comes from acceptance rates, which allows schools that don't serve the same kind of mission that WVU serves to be more selective in who they accept. WVU isn't allowed to be so selective with in-state students. It all has to do with the mission, which is to educate West Virginians.

(10-09-2013 11:54 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 11:30 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  That wasn't to say that we are an idiot conference. Vandy, Florida/Georgia, A&M, and Alabama are all great----good schools, in that order. The only down ones are all in one state...

It's one reason I'm glad we didn't take WVU.

WVU is just as good a school as Alabama, no matter what you think. But due to the mission WVU serves for the State of West Virginia we will never have the academic status many schools enjoy. A big part of the academic rating comes from acceptance rates, which allows schools that don't serve the same kind of mission that WVU serves to be more selective in who they accept. WVU isn't allowed to be so selective with in-state students. It all has to do with the mission, which is to educate West Virginians.

I'll buy most of that; sure, there is a lot of elitism in terms of academic rankings and such. That said, it's the reality we live with and in. In that reality, WVU would be the worst school in the SEC by a margin as deep as any coal mine.

As for WVU being as good of a school as Alabama, we'll just have to agree to disagree and I'll just point to rankings, and the monster gap, wether you buy them or not.

I should point out that I am not really much of an academic elitist when it comes to football. It's only relevant to the SEC in that many of the conference faithful don't appreciate the stigma placed on us by Big10 or Pac12 folks who constantly throw that kind of crap at us.

All that said, grabbing a 'bottom of the barrel' type academic squad doesn't help the conference shake the stigma I just mentioned, wether that label on WVU is fair or not is a separate conversation.

(10-09-2013 11:54 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 11:30 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  That wasn't to say that we are an idiot conference. Vandy, Florida/Georgia, A&M, and Alabama are all great----good schools, in that order. The only down ones are all in one state...

It's one reason I'm glad we didn't take WVU.

WVU is just as good a school as Alabama, no matter what you think. But due to the mission WVU serves for the State of West Virginia we will never have the academic status many schools enjoy. A big part of the academic rating comes from acceptance rates, which allows schools that don't serve the same kind of mission that WVU serves to be more selective in who they accept. WVU isn't allowed to be so selective with in-state students. It all has to do with the mission, which is to educate West Virginians.

Which is exactly why Ole Miss and Mississippi State suffer similar problems with their rankings. They are expected to work for the benefit of the citizens of Mississippi.

Ole Miss still has a decent ranking, Miss St. not so much. Both still get a lot more respect than WVU does however, right or wrong.

I'm not saying its a school for idiots or anything just that rankings, right or wrong, do often times matter to the big conferences. The big Conferences have the best football and the 'best' schools. You only have to be in the top 150 or so.

Conference affiliations help a good bit, as does the way in which the paperwork is filed. Sometimes all it takes is somebody to fill out the paperwork properly to give a school a big boost in the academic ratings...

(10-09-2013 02:11 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Conference affiliations help a good bit, as does the way in which the paperwork is filed. Sometimes all it takes is somebody to fill out the paperwork properly to give a school a big boost in the academic ratings...

True, just ask Baylor.

(10-02-2013 10:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The best solution BBB is none of the above. It would be the following:

A new conference of Private School Athletic Conference:

East: Army, Boston College, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Temple

South: Duke, Miami, Navy, Tulane, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt

West: Air Force, Baylor, S.M.U., Rice, T.C.U., Tulsa

This would be weird, because we're a state school (and technically, so are the service academies)

(10-09-2013 10:17 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  

(10-02-2013 10:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The best solution BBB is none of the above. It would be the following:

A new conference of Private School Athletic Conference:

East: Army, Boston College, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Temple

South: Duke, Miami, Navy, Tulane, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt

West: Air Force, Baylor, S.M.U., Rice, T.C.U., Tulsa

This would be weird, because we're a state school (and technically, so are the service academies)

Yes, the service academies are technically federally sponsored schools that behave like private schools. I honestly didn't know that Temple was a state school. Due apologies on that one. But I did think that the military academies would fit better with the privates as opposed to with the large state schools. They fit better academically in most cases and likely in the ability to compete fairly.

A lot of people dont because of our name and how we got it. At 34K students, we would be around the 2nd or 3rd largest private university. We're the second largest university in the state behind Penn State.

(10-09-2013 10:55 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 10:17 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  

(10-02-2013 10:04 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The best solution BBB is none of the above. It would be the following:

A new conference of Private School Athletic Conference:

East: Army, Boston College, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Syracuse, Temple

South: Duke, Miami, Navy, Tulane, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt

West: Air Force, Baylor, S.M.U., Rice, T.C.U., Tulsa

This would be weird, because we're a state school (and technically, so are the service academies)

Yes, the service academies are technically federally sponsored schools that behave like private schools. I honestly didn't know that Temple was a state school. Due apologies on that one. But I did think that the military academies would fit better with the privates as opposed to with the large state schools. They fit better academically in most cases and likely in the ability to compete fairly.

Agreed. While SA's are small (> 4200) and undergrad specific, the biggest selling point to an all private school conference would be alignment with schools that have similar academic constraints. As the Ivy League would be great for Army and Navy, it is functionally unobtainable. With regard to CFB, your P-SAC consists of many programs that SA's have played in recent memory. (A/N would probably remain in the Patriot League for all other sports)

(10-09-2013 12:36 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 11:54 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 11:30 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  That wasn't to say that we are an idiot conference. Vandy, Florida/Georgia, A&M, and Alabama are all great----good schools, in that order. The only down ones are all in one state...

It's one reason I'm glad we didn't take WVU.

WVU is just as good a school as Alabama, no matter what you think. But due to the mission WVU serves for the State of West Virginia we will never have the academic status many schools enjoy. A big part of the academic rating comes from acceptance rates, which allows schools that don't serve the same kind of mission that WVU serves to be more selective in who they accept. WVU isn't allowed to be so selective with in-state students. It all has to do with the mission, which is to educate West Virginians.

Which is exactly why Ole Miss and Mississippi State suffer similar problems with their rankings. They are expected to work for the benefit of the citizens of Mississippi.

Academic assessment is completely in the eye of the beholder since no school wants a true gauge of their academic performance. The profs would rather rely on branding and acceptance selectivity rather than compile real metrics like a national entrance/exit exams and disclosing the pass/fail rates of students that take the LSAT, GRE, PE Exam or MCAT.

I admire the missions the MSST, Ole Miss and WVU have undertaken because they are providing the best ROI for their taxpayers. Honestly, Calculus haven't changed that much since it was discovered by Newton and Leibniz. Unless one is purposely trying to make it difficult (Harvard and MIT come to mind) students are receiving the same knowledge whether the class is taught in Morgantown or Georgetown.

(10-10-2013 07:45 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 12:36 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 11:54 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(10-09-2013 11:30 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  That wasn't to say that we are an idiot conference. Vandy, Florida/Georgia, A&M, and Alabama are all great----good schools, in that order. The only down ones are all in one state...

It's one reason I'm glad we didn't take WVU.

WVU is just as good a school as Alabama, no matter what you think. But due to the mission WVU serves for the State of West Virginia we will never have the academic status many schools enjoy. A big part of the academic rating comes from acceptance rates, which allows schools that don't serve the same kind of mission that WVU serves to be more selective in who they accept. WVU isn't allowed to be so selective with in-state students. It all has to do with the mission, which is to educate West Virginians.

Which is exactly why Ole Miss and Mississippi State suffer similar problems with their rankings. They are expected to work for the benefit of the citizens of Mississippi.

Academic assessment is completely in the eye of the beholder since no school wants a true gauge of their academic performance. The profs would rather relay on branding and acceptance selectivity rather than compile real metrics like a national entrance/exit exams and disclosing the pass/fail rates of students that take the LSAT, GRE, PE Exam or MCAT.

I admire the missions the MSST, Ole Miss and WVU have undertaken because they are providing the best ROI for their taxpayers. Honestly, Calculus haven't chanced that much since it was discovered by Newton and Leibniz. Unless one is purposely trying to make it difficult (Harvard and MIT come to mind) students are receiving the same knowledge whether the class is taught in Morgantown or Georgetown.

Exactly. If their was any truth to the academic snobbery, there wouldn't be so many academic scandals involving athletes from schools like UNC, etc...

(10-10-2013 09:49 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Exactly. If their was any truth to the academic snobbery, there wouldn't be so many academic scandals involving athletes from schools like UNC, etc...

Honestly Bit, CFB and CBB academic shenanigans don't bother me nearly as much as fraud amongst the general students. An increase in remedial courses for entering freshmen along with the proliferation majors and classes that lack academic rigor (to say nothing about programs where math and science isn't required to graduate) does far more damage to the academic rep of a school than UNC's BB players getting an 'A' for an imaginary class. At least there is a rational explanation of that kind of malfeasance. How there is any justification for UNC allowing regular tuition paying students into the SAME class is completely beyond me.

(10-10-2013 10:57 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(10-10-2013 09:49 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Exactly. If their was any truth to the academic snobbery, there wouldn't be so many academic scandals involving athletes from schools like UNC, etc...

Honestly Bit, CFB and CBB academic shenanigans don't bother me nearly as much as fraud amongst the general students. An increase in remedial courses for entering freshmen along with the proliferation majors and classes that lack academic rigor (to say nothing about programs where math and science isn't required to graduate) does far more damage to the academic rep of a school than UNC's BB players getting an 'A' for an imaginary class. At least there is a rational explanation of that kind of malfeasance. How there is any justification for UNC allowing regular tuition paying students into the SAME class is completely beyond me.

It's not beyond you if you think about it Vandiver. All schools have had to deal with helicopter parents that actually show up at professors' offices to pitch a dido about their kids grades. They bullied their high school teachers into passes with inflated grades and now colleges to garner their parents cash are doing the same. The result is a public that is ever increasingly ignorant, undisciplined, and refuses to admit error because they have never been forced to overcome their limitations, just buy their way out of them. Hell, if we had a new frontier I'd move there so that Darwinism could weed those putzes out of my life.

I think a lot of schools are having to deal with what are essentially 'kids' these days with higher GPAs from high schools where they learned nothing but were given a grade. It's part of the reason all of these schools offer remedial math and even now remedial English/History/Hard Science courses.