(09-26-2013 10:30 AM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 10:19 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 06:59 AM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  I have a problem with telling kids to forgo their education when the people telling them this have their education. That's not going to solve the problem of kids going pro, spending their money, and crying broke within 5 years from making bad decisions with money... It's like a broken record.

This 110%...

I actually think players should have to go through 4 years of college before they go pro. Make them mature. Most college athletes get a degree in General Studies anyways, at least make them earn their way into the NFL.

Good point....maybe they should be required to graduate before they can go pro. Of course thet would be expecting too much

Great point. As far as I am concerned, they should be able to turn pro anytime. The colleges do not own them, and are making a ****load of money off of them. It is a great bluff by Delaney.

The fact they can't go pro leaves the colleges is an extremely uncomfortable spot. They:

a) want to make boat loads of money and get tremendous attention from the big sports. This requires recruiting the best, competing, and doing well.
b) want to keep a student-athlete model where athletes are students 1st.

The problem is they can't do both of those together morally unless there is a pro league that is a valid alternative. They can't morally set-up a system where the school profits tremendously from the talents of the players, but where the players themselves are prohibited from profiting (even on basic things like their image or signatures) unless that system is completely voluntary on the part of players. Completely voluntary doesn't mean the players simply know it, it means they are intentionally choosing it over more lucrative options that are just as likely to lead to the NFL.

If there was a farm system in the NFL close to baseball's, players could immediately go for the draft and those not interested in an education would forgo it. Those that did choose the education would do so knowing they had valid alternatives and thus have no excuse for not following the rules.

I know some argue that arena football or foreign leagues fill that void now, but I don't buy it. Arena football isn't going to have nearly the budget and/or programs in place designed to get people to the NFL and going out of country isn't really any justification for systems in place here.

If the NFL ever changes their approach, my position on college athletes will change a lot. Right now, I don't think it's at all justifiable for colleges to benefit in the ways they do and, at the same time, say students can't profit of their likeness, sign autographs, take money from boosters (above the table), etc. If a true farm system develops, that changes somewhat.

(09-26-2013 10:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  This goes back to my point, though: why on Earth would the NFL choose to do this? It doesn't matter what the Big Ten, SEC or NCAA wants in this regard. Unless the NFL deems going to a minor league system is *better* for their business interests (not just tolerable, which is what I see a lot of people trying to argue here), then it won't happen.

Are you of the opinion that the NCAA has zero leveredge in all this? If the NCAA wanted to, they could make an absolutely mockery of the NFL & NBA drafts by allowing (like you said) players to return to school that aren't happy with their draft status so long as they don't hire an agent. They also provide excellent access to professional scouts and coaches which allows their teams to test, probe and prod the athletes before making potentially hundred million dollar investments in them. They could shut that down too if they wanted. There is a lot of cooperation that goes on between the professional ranks and the NCAA and its getting to the point where the professionals rules are really harming the NCAA. Not saying anything legitimate is going to happen, I'm just saying I think the NCAA has more leverage than you give them credit for.

(09-26-2013 07:52 PM)SDSUguy Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 10:39 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  This goes back to my point, though: why on Earth would the NFL choose to do this? It doesn't matter what the Big Ten, SEC or NCAA wants in this regard. Unless the NFL deems going to a minor league system is *better* for their business interests (not just tolerable, which is what I see a lot of people trying to argue here), then it won't happen.

Are you of the opinion that the NCAA has zero leveredge in all this? If the NCAA wanted to, they could make an absolutely mockery of the NFL & NBA drafts by allowing (like you said) players to return to school that aren't happy with their draft status so long as they don't hire an agent. They also provide excellent access to professional scouts and coaches which allows their teams to test, probe and prod the athletes before making potentially hundred million dollar investments in them. They could shut that down too if they wanted. There is a lot of cooperation that goes on between the professional ranks and the NCAA and its getting to the point where the professionals rules are really harming the NCAA. Not saying anything legitimate is going to happen, I'm just saying I think the NCAA has more leverage than you give them credit for.

Frank, you are totally right. But, could this discussion allow the NFL to see the profitability in a D-league? American football popularity is as high as ever...so how could more football be a bad thing? Obviously, they wouldn't do anything at a financial LOSS...but could it be profitable?

Try this on for size.

8-teams...60 players each...journeymen players who keep getting picked up and then dropped by NFL rosters...college-aged players who don't want to go the college route...the 8-team are located in a city within each of the 8 NFL conferences. The 8 teams don't just play in their cities though...they play 1 game per year in each stadium of the NFL.

The games are all aired on the NFL Network (they are certainly looking for content).

AFC West--LA
AFC South--Houston
AFC East--NY
AFC North--Cleveland
NFC West--SF
NFC South--Atlanta
NFC North--Chicago
NFC East--Washington

Play a 8 game schedule per team. Start the thing in early March...do a 4-team playoff in May. The first few years...they might need to include the Minor League game as part of a "season ticket" package for each NFL team...until the popularity grows. I think it would be WILDLY successful in no time at all. The NBA playoffs won't have started yet...but the Super Bowl/NFL hype would have worn off by March. Fans are starving for football (look at the odd popularity of spring football games and the NFL draft for proof!)...and I think the NFL could make money off of a D-league.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat...ue_(2013–)

The only thing that I think won't fly with this thing...is the NFL would WANT the money from this thing. Perhaps they are trying to set themselves up to be bought out when finally viable...

(09-26-2013 06:50 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  The fact they can't go pro leaves the colleges is an extremely uncomfortable spot. They:

a) want to make boat loads of money and get tremendous attention from the big sports. This requires recruiting the best, competing, and doing well.
b) want to keep a student-athlete model where athletes are students 1st.

The problem is they can't do both of those together morally unless there is a pro league that is a valid alternative. They can't morally set-up a system where the school profits tremendously from the talents of the players, but where the players themselves are prohibited from profiting (even on basic things like their image or signatures) unless that system is completely voluntary on the part of players. Completely voluntary doesn't mean the players simply know it, it means they are intentionally choosing it over more lucrative options that are just as likely to lead to the NFL.

If there was a farm system in the NFL close to baseball's, players could immediately go for the draft and those not interested in an education would forgo it. Those that did choose the education would do so knowing they had valid alternatives and thus have no excuse for not following the rules.

I know some argue that arena football or foreign leagues fill that void now, but I don't buy it. Arena football isn't going to have nearly the budget and/or programs in place designed to get people to the NFL and going out of country isn't really any justification for systems in place here.

If the NFL ever changes their approach, my position on college athletes will change a lot. Right now, I don't think it's at all justifiable for colleges to benefit in the ways they do and, at the same time, say students can't profit of their likeness, sign autographs, take money from boosters (above the table), etc. If a true farm system develops, that changes somewhat.

There should be a set of rules laid down with a list of things these players CAN do. Especially signing a damn autograph. Being penalized for that is downright freaking stupid. I think players should play 4 years of ball to make it to the NFL, but to balance things out, once they hit their Jr year, let them take money from boosters and such. If someone wants to hand them a couple hundred for a record performance, or game winning play, let it roll...

We actually had one of our senior stars make the statement that he didn't come to Missouri to study, but rather to play football. We all know his name and he is a rookie, I believe, for the Jets this year. What a waste of an academic spot for an actual intelligent, motivated student...

(09-26-2013 06:33 AM)TerryD Wrote:  I have been saying that I would like to see a minor league pro football setup for kids who don't want to go to class and earn degrees.

They can go to this minor league or semi-pro setup and get paid and other kids can play college football.

I don't know that the professionals need an extra tier of developmental expense. Just let the kids sign with the pros anytime they desire to do so. Then the choice is in the lap of the kid. "Do I adhere to my schools rules and follow my coaches instructions?", or "Do I go for cash and take my chances that I wash out, get injured early, or can't just can't handle it and blow my chances to get an educations and perhaps a good job later?"
Terry only the kids can answer this question. If they choose to take the risk that's their business. If they choose to stay they know the rules.

Early departure for professional ranks hasn't hurt the popularity of college baseball or college basketball. Most scouts consider good college baseball programs to be on par with AA ball. Professional opportunities does diminish the talent pool for basketball at the collegiate ranks, but hasn't hurt the sport. I don't think it would hurt football at all and if anything it would give coaches more control.

I don't have a problem with kids living their dream and becoming a paid professional athlete. What I am saying is that the whole purpose of college is to learn how the real world works. Some people have the maturity to handle being a professional and being a good citizen to boot. Most youngsters I know cannot handle such things without going through (the motions of life).

In college, you learn a lot about life and yourself. In the pro game, they are going to assume you can handle the pressures of life and be able to perform on Sundays. In most cases, these 18, 19, 20 year old kids won't be able to cut it.

I believe that ALL college athletes should major in (or minor in) sports-administration or business administration. This will help them to learn the basics of how to run a business. If they don't make it in the pros, they can at least learn how to run a business that is sports related or whatever they desire to do.

(09-27-2013 04:03 PM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  I don't have a problem with kids living their dream and becoming a paid professional athlete. What I am saying is that the whole purpose of college is to learn how the real world works. Some people have the maturity to handle being a professional and being a good citizen to boot. Most youngsters I know cannot handle such things without going through (the motions of life).

In college, you learn a lot about life and yourself. In the pro game, they are going to assume you can handle the pressures of life and be able to perform on Sundays. In most cases, these 18, 19, 20 year old kids won't be able to cut it.

I believe that ALL college athletes should major in (or minor in) sports-administration or business administration. This will help them to learn the basics of how to run a business. If they don't make it in the pros, they can at least learn how to run a business that is sports related or whatever they desire to do.

Or Communications... At least I think that's what you major in to be a sports analyst.

Let me be cynical for a moment (and if anyone has already brought this up, my apologies - I didn't read the entire thread). IF college players were able to go pro at any time (even straight out of high school), which P5 league would lose the most players, and which would lose the fewest? THINK about who suggested it...

(09-27-2013 05:49 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Let me be cynical for a moment (and if anyone has already brought this up, my apologies - I didn't read the entire thread). IF college players were able to go pro at any time (even straight out of high school), which P5 league would lose the most players, and which would lose the fewest? THINK about who suggested it...

It doesn't really matter. Practically no high school graduate is ready for the NFL physically or mentally. What we are really talking about here are kids finishing their Sophomore year being eligible for the draft. That's about how long it takes to get a high school kid conditioned enough to even have an outside chance of making it professionally. But your point is well taken. Since the Big 10 has the least to work with they are the ones usually pushing for rules changes that handicap the field.

(09-27-2013 07:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-27-2013 05:49 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Let me be cynical for a moment (and if anyone has already brought this up, my apologies - I didn't read the entire thread). IF college players were able to go pro at any time (even straight out of high school), which P5 league would lose the most players, and which would lose the fewest? THINK about who suggested it...

It doesn't really matter. Practically no high school graduate is ready for the NFL physically or mentally. What we are really talking about here are kids finishing their Sophomore year being eligible for the draft. That's about how long it takes to get a high school kid conditioned enough to even have an outside chance of making it professionally. But your point is well taken. Since the Big 10 has the least to work with they are the ones usually pushing for rules changes that handicap the field.

ha! oh you are too funny JR. Delany is saying nothing about "handicapping" the rest of the field. He is just saying the Big Ten will not push for paying athletes. How is that pushing for a new rule? He is simply saying they wont support a rule allowing unlimited payment to college athletes. Somehow in your anti big ten brain you equate that to him trying to "handicap" the SEC?

This has less to do with handicapping the SEC and more to do with Delany and the Big Ten drawing a line in the sand as to how far they will go.

It is so funny how Southern folks just cant get themselves out of the Northern boogeyman mentality. Come on JR.

(09-27-2013 07:18 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(09-27-2013 07:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-27-2013 05:49 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Let me be cynical for a moment (and if anyone has already brought this up, my apologies - I didn't read the entire thread). IF college players were able to go pro at any time (even straight out of high school), which P5 league would lose the most players, and which would lose the fewest? THINK about who suggested it...

It doesn't really matter. Practically no high school graduate is ready for the NFL physically or mentally. What we are really talking about here are kids finishing their Sophomore year being eligible for the draft. That's about how long it takes to get a high school kid conditioned enough to even have an outside chance of making it professionally. But your point is well taken. Since the Big 10 has the least to work with they are the ones usually pushing for rules changes that handicap the field.

ha! oh you are too funny JR. Delany is saying nothing about "handicapping" the rest of the field. He is just saying the Big Ten will not push for paying athletes. How is that pushing for a new rule? He is simply saying they wont support a rule allowing unlimited payment to college athletes. Somehow in your anti big ten brain you equate that to him trying to "handicap" the SEC?

This has less to do with handicapping the SEC and more to do with Delany and the Big Ten drawing a line in the sand as to how far they will go.

It is so funny how Southern folks just cant get themselves out of the Northern boogeyman mentality. Come on JR.

I was responding to Hokie Marks insinuation H1. I think he has a point to a certain extent. And, I explained that extent. By the way Delany was saying let the kids turn pro at any age, like with baseball and basketball. Pay was not mentioned in the suggestion. I was merely pointing out that for football I doubt any kid could make it in the NFL without at least two years of conditioning in college. I stand by that. The other comment was a shoulder punch not a jab or right cross.

(09-27-2013 07:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-27-2013 07:18 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(09-27-2013 07:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-27-2013 05:49 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Let me be cynical for a moment (and if anyone has already brought this up, my apologies - I didn't read the entire thread). IF college players were able to go pro at any time (even straight out of high school), which P5 league would lose the most players, and which would lose the fewest? THINK about who suggested it...

It doesn't really matter. Practically no high school graduate is ready for the NFL physically or mentally. What we are really talking about here are kids finishing their Sophomore year being eligible for the draft. That's about how long it takes to get a high school kid conditioned enough to even have an outside chance of making it professionally. But your point is well taken. Since the Big 10 has the least to work with they are the ones usually pushing for rules changes that handicap the field.

ha! oh you are too funny JR. Delany is saying nothing about "handicapping" the rest of the field. He is just saying the Big Ten will not push for paying athletes. How is that pushing for a new rule? He is simply saying they wont support a rule allowing unlimited payment to college athletes. Somehow in your anti big ten brain you equate that to him trying to "handicap" the SEC?

This has less to do with handicapping the SEC and more to do with Delany and the Big Ten drawing a line in the sand as to how far they will go.

It is so funny how Southern folks just cant get themselves out of the Northern boogeyman mentality. Come on JR.

I was responding to Hokie Marks insinuation H1. I think he has a point to a certain extent. And, I explained that extent. By the way Delany was saying let the kids turn pro at any age, like with baseball and basketball. Pay was not mentioned in the suggestion. I was merely pointing out that for football I doubt any kid could make it in the NFL without at least two years of conditioning in college. I stand by that. The other comment was a shoulder punch not a jab or right cross.

I agree to your opinion that high school kids are no where near ready for NFL football. It would never happen. A new league would have to be formed and that will never happen. The Networks would never cover it since they have put so much money into the College Game and the contracts for such.

This was just Delany's way of showing that there is no leverage to push them from their position on this subject. He brought up quite a ludicrous suggestion that everyone knows has no chance in hell of happening.

Every once in a while there are kids who could go straight from HS to the pros. IMO Hershel Walker could have. He was a man among boys during his college career...

(09-27-2013 08:32 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Every once in a while there are kids who could go straight from HS to the pros. IMO Hershel Walker could have. He was a man among boys during his college career...

I agree, but they are the exception and not the rule. Bo Jackson, Deon Sanders, perhaps Eric Dickerson, and Julio Jones are some others I think might have been able to make the move. But truly most of them need a year to get up to speed for college ball.

Expand the NFL taxi squads. Pay those players $50,000 a year for a year or so.

(09-26-2013 06:59 AM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  I have a problem with telling kids to forgo their education when the people telling them this have their education. That's not going to solve the problem of kids going pro, spending their money, and crying broke within 5 years from making bad decisions with money... It's like a broken record.

Be honest. How many guys that go pro actually use their education for anything? And before you start posting about players that start business, clothes lines, etc you don't need a degree for that. You need money to hire lots of guys that have degree's and experience.

There will not be as much talent to go around anymore but I'm pretty sure everyone on this message board even if you have a masters or doctorate level education would trade incomes with Kobe Bryant in a second and he didn't go to college.

(09-26-2013 10:37 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  

(09-26-2013 06:59 AM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  I have a problem with telling kids to forgo their education when the people telling them this have their education. That's not going to solve the problem of kids going pro, spending their money, and crying broke within 5 years from making bad decisions with money... It's like a broken record.

Then that is on the kids that decided to go that route just like any other HS student going directly into the workforce and making $$...spending it and crying broke. That is a life lesson.
Look, a kid going pro in a NFL or NBA minor league system isn't going to get millions of $$. It'll be more like $50k or so...probably less. But they get to spend 100% focused on football or basketball and still get training and the like as in college.

Besides, if a kid wants to go pro and try that route it's not like he can't go back to college and get an education later. There is no age limit on going to college. He won't get a scholarship or get to play a sport but that would be his choice from the beginning. He can then pay for the education himself or get a loan like the rest of us. Being an independent student at that time with a lower salary, he may even qualify for grants to pay for the education that he decided to forgo like the rest of the 99% of the students.

Funny thing is people actually think going to college means something. Walk into any Best Buy, Target, Hhgreg and I guarantee you that you find at least three guys that have bachelors degrees making less than 10$ an hour shoot WAFFLE HOUSE managers are pretty much required to have degrees now. Heck. if you can make $50,000 coming straight out of high school without getting $60,000 in debt with student loans, credit cards, and car payments like most college students only to have to have to get more education to even land a decent job your doing great.