(09-16-2013 11:01 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 10:53 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 10:23 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:08 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 08:03 AM)lofi Wrote:  "Name another time where govt forces killed US citizens on American soil."
I believe those 2 incidents qualify.
I agree with your point about the Kent State protesters being unarmed and that is a major difference between these situations but for anybody to claim that the US government hasn't killed American citizens on American soil is quite naive.

How about Wounded Knee, and the members of AIM? Leonard Peltier is still in jail on evidence that the FBI manufactured (which has been proven), and he still can't get a pardon when everyone believes he's not guilty of the crime he was convicted for, based on the fact that the FBI had to manufacture enough evidence to convict him...

You are all leaving out the most egregious breach ever. WWI veterans were ridden down by forces led by MacArthur while protesting the cessation of their pensions in Washington D.C. How do justify killing those who served their own country, who were only protesting the fact that no one in government was keeping their promises to them, and it is done while they are exercising their right to protest and the freedom of assembly, and the atrocity is carried out by using what should have been their brothers in arms against them? They don't put that in the high school history books either!

very good point, however its included in textbooks as well.

Not all states use the same history books. I didn't find out about that incident until I read some biographies. In my day there weren't many things placed in text books that cast an unfavorable light upon government. But then there were many more people who actually read books for leisure and there were many many divergent views available with the right reading list. I think there is more censorship today with regards to natural history and science than there is with history, although I still see some examples of the latter. With the latter it's not that things are omitted, but rather details about those things are either omitted or in some cases included thereby creating a different perspective.

I remember seeing it. I don't remember all the details, just that they were protesting, camping out in DC and got driven out by the military.

History books spin things by omitting facts in many cases. My child's American History book emphasized that Texans ignored the Mexican prohibition on slavery and didn't follow all the Mexican rules. It was written by a Mexican American from UC-Riverside whose writings emphasize minority issues. He didn't mention that the Mexicans looked the other way on slavery. He didn't mention that one of the rules was forcing people to become Catholic. He didn't even mention that Santa Anna threw out the Mexican constitution. It didn't mention that he slaughtered Mexican citizens (in Zacatecas) as well before the Alamo. So it really distorted the whole Texas revolution trying to make it look like a greedy land grab from Mexico (who invited Americans because almost no Mexicans would settle there).

(09-16-2013 09:56 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:44 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:08 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 08:42 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-15-2013 11:19 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  I think for people who are well-educated (you seem to be, and in all candor I consider myself to be, as well), it can be frequently difficult to grasp just how comprehensively uninformed a non-well-educated person is about historical events that happened prior to their own adolescence. I am continually shocked at how many of those people exist in the world around me. Given their numerical frequency, it does not surprise me in the least that some of them wind up pledging DKE at Louisiana State.

I went through school in the 80's and 90's, I never heard anything about this 4 death massacre in the US History books, and History was my favorite class... What is this young buck talking about?

southern education system at its finest i guess..........

from junior high, high school, & college its in every textbook. and yes HIST was my favorite class as well & my major is poly sci which isnt that far off from history. so i think I have a pretty good idea of what im talking about

So it's in every major US history book in the north then, yet you can't help but take a jab at southern schools. Or maybe it was implemented in books sometime in the 21st century.

southern schools do it to themselves. they still call it the war of northern aggression and they totally forget or downplay the civil rights movement. sorry but i dont ever take southern history textbooks for their word. and i go to colorado, we may not be southern, but if our textbooks include it then you cant say its a "northern bias".

KSU is the biggest event in the civil rights movement, how you can make an argument that it shouldnt get included is beyond me.

It was a bunch of protesting students who thought it would be OK to attack the Ohio National Guard. The right to protest does not include throwing bricks and gasoline bottles at the authorities. Innocent kids should not have been anywhere near that scene.

(09-16-2013 10:04 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:56 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:44 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:08 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 08:42 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  I went through school in the 80's and 90's, I never heard anything about this 4 death massacre in the US History books, and History was my favorite class... What is this young buck talking about?

southern education system at its finest i guess..........

from junior high, high school, & college its in every textbook. and yes HIST was my favorite class as well & my major is poly sci which isnt that far off from history. so i think I have a pretty good idea of what im talking about

So it's in every major US history book in the north then, yet you can't help but take a jab at southern schools. Or maybe it was implemented in books sometime in the 21st century.

southern schools do it to themselves. they still call it the war of northern aggression and they totally forget or downplay the civil rights movement. sorry but i dont ever take southern history textbooks for their word. and i go to colorado, we may not be southern, but if our textbooks include it then you cant say its a "northern bias".

KSU is the biggest event in the civil rights movement, how you can make an argument that it shouldnt get included is beyond me.

It was a bunch of protesting students who thought it would be OK to attack the Ohio National Guard. Innocent kids should have been nowhere near that site.

Bad times those of us who were old enough to live through don't wish to rehash. Those who didn't live through it will not ever completely understand either side of that issue.

(09-16-2013 10:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 10:04 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:56 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:44 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:08 AM)john01992 Wrote:  southern education system at its finest i guess..........

from junior high, high school, & college its in every textbook. and yes HIST was my favorite class as well & my major is poly sci which isnt that far off from history. so i think I have a pretty good idea of what im talking about

So it's in every major US history book in the north then, yet you can't help but take a jab at southern schools. Or maybe it was implemented in books sometime in the 21st century.

southern schools do it to themselves. they still call it the war of northern aggression and they totally forget or downplay the civil rights movement. sorry but i dont ever take southern history textbooks for their word. and i go to colorado, we may not be southern, but if our textbooks include it then you cant say its a "northern bias".

KSU is the biggest event in the civil rights movement, how you can make an argument that it shouldnt get included is beyond me.

It was a bunch of protesting students who thought it would be OK to attack the Ohio National Guard. Innocent kids should have been nowhere near that site.

Bad times those of us who were old enough to live through don't wish to rehash. Those who didn't live through it will not ever completely understand either side of that issue.

Tell me about it... A new city was burning every week, usually a northern city. I remember my dad telling me it would end up this way... with gunshots. You are correct Jr. It was a lot of issues. School busing was a big issue and caused lots of riots.

(09-16-2013 11:04 AM)john01992 Wrote:  no offense but in the north i think our textbooks tend to be written more by teachers and less by politicians than southern textbooks.

Dream on.

(09-16-2013 10:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 10:04 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:56 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:44 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:08 AM)john01992 Wrote:  southern education system at its finest i guess..........

from junior high, high school, & college its in every textbook. and yes HIST was my favorite class as well & my major is poly sci which isnt that far off from history. so i think I have a pretty good idea of what im talking about

So it's in every major US history book in the north then, yet you can't help but take a jab at southern schools. Or maybe it was implemented in books sometime in the 21st century.

southern schools do it to themselves. they still call it the war of northern aggression and they totally forget or downplay the civil rights movement. sorry but i dont ever take southern history textbooks for their word. and i go to colorado, we may not be southern, but if our textbooks include it then you cant say its a "northern bias".

KSU is the biggest event in the civil rights movement, how you can make an argument that it shouldnt get included is beyond me.

It was a bunch of protesting students who thought it would be OK to attack the Ohio National Guard. Innocent kids should have been nowhere near that site.

Bad times those of us who were old enough to live through don't wish to rehash. Those who didn't live through it will not ever completely understand either side of that issue.

There are a lot of things you can't understand from a textbook. Kent St. is one of them. The impact of the fall of the Berlin Wall is another. I imagine I will never truly understand how it felt to be an American during WWII as my parents and grandparents did(both Grandfathers were in the military in WWII).

(09-17-2013 07:19 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 11:04 AM)john01992 Wrote:  no offense but in the north i think our textbooks tend to be written more by teachers and less by politicians than southern textbooks.

Dream on.

Close minded prejudice against southerners is politically correct. Ginsburg did it from the bench of the Supreme Court. Think about that.

When I moved to Ohio (around the time of Kent St.) after living in Indiana and Kentucky, a kid asked me, "Are kids in Indiana tall."
"Yes." "Are kids in Kentucky dumb?" "No."

(09-17-2013 07:37 AM)bullet Wrote:  Close minded prejudice against southerners is politically correct. Ginsburg did it from the bench of the Supreme Court. Think about that.

All true.

i mean hey its not like yall have a bad track record with creationism, the war of northern aggression, and downplaying the civil rights movement or anything like that......

and wasnt it texas that said something along the lines of.....

"we need to implement conservative ideals in our textbooks to cancel out the liberal agenda"

(09-17-2013 08:43 AM)john01992 Wrote:  i mean hey its not like yall have a bad track record with creationism, the war of northern aggression, and downplaying the civil rights movement or anything like that......

and wasnt it texas that said something along the lines of.....

"we need to implement conservative ideals in our textbooks to cancel out the liberal agenda"

Textbook writers have agendas. I've seen it in my kids books where they distort the truth and try to make kids feel ashamed to be Americans instead of proud. That quote has a point, even if the tiny group that has captured the Texas textbook review goes a little off the deep end (kind of like some of the textbook writers).

(09-17-2013 08:43 AM)john01992 Wrote:  i mean hey its not like yall have a bad track record with creationism, the war of northern aggression, and downplaying the civil rights movement or anything like that......

and wasnt it texas that said something along the lines of.....

"we need to implement conservative ideals in our textbooks to cancel out the liberal agenda"

And you are kind of making my point with your religious and anti-southern bigotry. You've obviously never been to the south if you think the Civil Rights Movement gets downplayed. There's a relatively large African American population with leadership that makes sure it never gets forgotten.

(09-17-2013 09:25 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-17-2013 08:43 AM)john01992 Wrote:  i mean hey its not like yall have a bad track record with creationism, the war of northern aggression, and downplaying the civil rights movement or anything like that......

and wasnt it texas that said something along the lines of.....

"we need to implement conservative ideals in our textbooks to cancel out the liberal agenda"

And you are kind of making my point with your religious and anti-southern bigotry. You've obviously never been to the south if you think the Civil Rights Movement gets downplayed. There's a relatively large African American population with leadership that makes sure it never gets forgotten.

im talking about in the textbooks. because i can guarantee you the the majority of public schools in the north/south study them very differently

(09-16-2013 10:39 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:56 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:44 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:08 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 08:42 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  I went through school in the 80's and 90's, I never heard anything about this 4 death massacre in the US History books, and History was my favorite class... What is this young buck talking about?

southern education system at its finest i guess..........

from junior high, high school, & college its in every textbook. and yes HIST was my favorite class as well & my major is poly sci which isnt that far off from history. so i think I have a pretty good idea of what im talking about

So it's in every major US history book in the north then, yet you can't help but take a jab at southern schools. Or maybe it was implemented in books sometime in the 21st century.

southern schools do it to themselves. they still call it the war of northern aggression and they totally forget or downplay the civil rights movement. sorry but i dont ever take southern history textbooks for their word. and i go to colorado, we may not be southern, but if our textbooks include it then you cant say its a "northern bias".

KSU is the biggest event in the civil rights movement, how you can make an argument that it shouldnt get included is beyond me.

It was a bunch of kids in Ohio holding an anti-war rally over Vietnam that got shot by the Ohio Army National Guard. You're not old enough to understand the animosity between the military and hippies unless your old man was in his 40's when you were born. You're still a kid yourself. My uncle was in Vietnam and everytime he got off the plane back on U.S. soil, hippies and anti-war protesters were in line spitting on them and throwing sh*t at them.

I'm not saying those kids deserved to get shot, but I would imagine YOUR history books don't mention half of the sh*t that really happened, or caused the animosity between anti-war protestors and military personnel that fought and lost best friends/family in that war.

I guess you also knew that 2 days before this, there were vandalisms and bottles being thrown at police, to the point that the Kent mayor issued a state of emergency, that was just on May 1. On May 2, when the National Guard arrived, the anti-war protestors had already set the ROTC building on fire and slashed the fire hoses. Several Kent firemen and police were struck by rocks and other objects while the protestors cheered around the burning building. On May 3, the Ohio governer called all of the protestors un-American and vowed to use every type of law enforcement to drive them out of Kent, OH.

Rhodes then said. "They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America. Now I want to say this. They are not going to take over the campus. I think that we're up against the strongest, well-trained, militant, revolutionary group that has ever assembled in America." (kids like you, john, and today's other crybabies) Rhodes can be heard in the recording of his speech yelling and pounding his fists on the desk. On May 4, the protestors began confronting the soldiers and throwing rocks at them, initially leading to the gun fire by 27 soldiers.

I'm sure, though, that you'd rather be bullied and pelted by protestors that you couldn't control.

My brother was wounded in Vietnam and was called a "Baby Killer" when he returned to the U.S.

I just want to be sure of your position.

If, say, a Tea Party or anti-abortion protest gets to the point where the protesters start throwing rocks, or set fire to an abortion clinic, you will support the decision to skip non-lethal force entirely and will also support the National Guard opening fire on the unarmed Tea Party and/or anti-abortion protesters?

(09-17-2013 07:34 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 10:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 10:04 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:56 AM)john01992 Wrote:  

(09-16-2013 09:44 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  So it's in every major US history book in the north then, yet you can't help but take a jab at southern schools. Or maybe it was implemented in books sometime in the 21st century.

southern schools do it to themselves. they still call it the war of northern aggression and they totally forget or downplay the civil rights movement. sorry but i dont ever take southern history textbooks for their word. and i go to colorado, we may not be southern, but if our textbooks include it then you cant say its a "northern bias".

KSU is the biggest event in the civil rights movement, how you can make an argument that it shouldnt get included is beyond me.

It was a bunch of protesting students who thought it would be OK to attack the Ohio National Guard. Innocent kids should have been nowhere near that site.

Bad times those of us who were old enough to live through don't wish to rehash. Those who didn't live through it will not ever completely understand either side of that issue.

There are a lot of things you can't understand from a textbook. Kent St. is one of them. The impact of the fall of the Berlin Wall is another. I imagine I will never truly understand how it felt to be an American during WWII as my parents and grandparents did(both Grandfathers were in the military in WWII).

I am in complete agreement Bullet.

(09-17-2013 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-17-2013 08:43 AM)john01992 Wrote:  i mean hey its not like yall have a bad track record with creationism, the war of northern aggression, and downplaying the civil rights movement or anything like that......

and wasnt it texas that said something along the lines of.....

"we need to implement conservative ideals in our textbooks to cancel out the liberal agenda"

Textbook writers have agendas. I've seen it in my kids books where they distort the truth and try to make kids feel ashamed to be Americans instead of proud. That quote has a point, even if the tiny group that has captured the Texas textbook review goes a little off the deep end (kind of like some of the textbook writers).

You mean like some in the government calling our American Revolution terrorism and our forefathers terrorists? This is the silly crap that makes me not care what you think about me or my ideas. We have lost our principles that made us strong. It's not a Northern/ Southern issue anymore. Racism is around everywhere and on every side. Who stood with clubs and berets and terrorized voters at the Philadelphia polling places in 2008? Never saw that recently in Jackson Miss. We need to move on here. Bad and good exists within us as individuals, not as a state or region anymore. We know slavery was terrible. It was equally terrible that the North had children and immigrants working in 125 degree garment factories being beaten by a company bosses because they were tired from working 12-14 hour days. Out west the Chinese lived in horrible conditions as railroad workers. I think Bitcruncher will agree with me that the coal miners didn't have it very good for a long time. Slavery comes in different forms. We all have our dirty laundry. Can we get back to sports now?

(09-17-2013 11:12 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(09-17-2013 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-17-2013 08:43 AM)john01992 Wrote:  i mean hey its not like yall have a bad track record with creationism, the war of northern aggression, and downplaying the civil rights movement or anything like that......

and wasnt it texas that said something along the lines of.....

"we need to implement conservative ideals in our textbooks to cancel out the liberal agenda"

Textbook writers have agendas. I've seen it in my kids books where they distort the truth and try to make kids feel ashamed to be Americans instead of proud. That quote has a point, even if the tiny group that has captured the Texas textbook review goes a little off the deep end (kind of like some of the textbook writers).

You mean like some in the government calling our American Revolution terrorism and our forefathers terrorists? This is the silly crap that makes me not care what you think about me or my ideas. We have lost our principles that made us strong. It's not a Northern/ Southern issue anymore. Racism is around everywhere and on every side. Who stood with clubs and berets and terrorized voters at the Philadelphia polling places in 2008? Never saw that recently in Jackson Miss. We need to move on here. Bad and good exists within us as individuals, not as a state or region anymore. We know slavery was terrible. It was equally terrible that the North had children and immigrants working in 125 degree garment factories being beaten by a company bosses because they were tired from working 12-14 hour days. Out west the Chinese lived in horrible conditions as railroad workers. I think Bitcruncher will agree with me that the coal miners didn't have it very good for a long time. Slavery comes in different forms. We all have our dirty laundry. Can we get back to sports now?

Well said, Medic.

Just like to add on the Kent State shootings as I was a senior in H.S. then and lived through that era and seen both sides of the results of it. Two of the Victims were not even involved in the demonstrations as They were between classes and got caught in the middle and stopped from moving towards Their next classrooms by the large crowd. One was even R.O.T.C. They were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Only 1, Jeffery Miller was actively involved in throwing items back at the Guardsmen. A bad day all around.

(09-17-2013 11:12 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(09-17-2013 09:20 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(09-17-2013 08:43 AM)john01992 Wrote:  i mean hey its not like yall have a bad track record with creationism, the war of northern aggression, and downplaying the civil rights movement or anything like that......

and wasnt it texas that said something along the lines of.....

"we need to implement conservative ideals in our textbooks to cancel out the liberal agenda"

Textbook writers have agendas. I've seen it in my kids books where they distort the truth and try to make kids feel ashamed to be Americans instead of proud. That quote has a point, even if the tiny group that has captured the Texas textbook review goes a little off the deep end (kind of like some of the textbook writers).

You mean like some in the government calling our American Revolution terrorism and our forefathers terrorists? This is the silly crap that makes me not care what you think about me or my ideas. We have lost our principles that made us strong. It's not a Northern/ Southern issue anymore. Racism is around everywhere and on every side. Who stood with clubs and berets and terrorized voters at the Philadelphia polling places in 2008? Never saw that recently in Jackson Miss. We need to move on here. Bad and good exists within us as individuals, not as a state or region anymore. We know slavery was terrible. It was equally terrible that the North had children and immigrants working in 125 degree garment factories being beaten by a company bosses because they were tired from working 12-14 hour days. Out west the Chinese lived in horrible conditions as railroad workers. I think Bitcruncher will agree with me that the coal miners didn't have it very good for a long time. Slavery comes in different forms. We all have our dirty laundry. Can we get back to sports now?

That pretty much sums it up...

/thread