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Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
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CommuterBob Offline
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Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--late...22795.html

Quote:This detestable idea was later co-opted by the NCAA and the modern Olympic Games (the ancient Greek athletes were actually paid). The public was then repeatedly sold the idea of the innocence of amateurism and sold it well. This conveniently allowed the powerful administrators to control all the revenue produced.

Amateurism is a sham in practice, too, one that simply isn't being followed or respected, as story after story after story proves. So many of the athletes, players and administrators don't believe in it. That's the value of the coverage. It's made denying the extent of the violations laughable.

Enforcing amateurism became so impossible and ridiculous that even the International Olympic Committee – still in favor of kickbacks and bribes, mind you – gave up on it … nearly three decades ago. The Olympics didn't collapse because Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps can appear in TV commercials. It actually got more popular. It'd be no different in the college game.

Quote:The real scandals don't involve money; they involve academics or drug-test fixing or other real-world issues. Systematic academic fraud – one that keeps borderline students uneducated – is what should generate the harshest penalties, the loudest condemnations and the most aggressive NCAA investigations. These are, after all, supposed to be institutions of higher learning. And the schools are very capable of looking into this stuff themselves.

That isn't how the system is set up though.

College sports wants to protect its money – making sure every dollar Manziel or Fluker or whoever can generate comes through them and only them. No side deals directly to the players. That's the motivation to stop middlemen.

I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit, but unfortunately Title IX has a large role to play in the process as well. Simply put, you cannot pay a football player without also paying a women's tennis player, or rower, or some other non-revenue sports participant. The Title IX lawsuits of the '80's and '90's have regulated as such - there must be proportional opportunity for both sexes and that includes scholarships and participation in athletics. Never mind the simple fact of life that women don't particiapte in sports at the same level of interest as men do, or the fact that by and large, women's sports (as well as many men's sports outside of football and basketball) don't generate any revenue. It's all about gender equality, which is a noble goal, but it is truly what is holding back athletes in revenue sports from getting paid.

Athletes get tons of preferential treatment within the current system as well. Many get into colleges that they could not otherwise attend (and many get into college period when they would normally be unable to qualify) simply because they are good at a sport. That's a huge benefit right off the bat. They get free tutoring, free training, preferential scheduling, all on top of their free tuition, room & board, and books. Sure they need a few more dollars to make it fully complete and to cover such things as laundry, transportation, and other soft costs, but they also have the ability now to have sponsored entertainment provided by the schools. The "slave" mentality that Wetzel and others in the media try to portray for these athletes is way off base. Yes, these athletes make millions for the schools, but they also get more than their fair share when you compare the benefits graduate students, or even faculty get for also making the schools millions in research grants. And because the revenue sports' revenue really covers the athletic department budget at only a handful of schools, most of the time the school itself is having to cover some of those costs - and most schools have the rest of the student body paying a decent chunk of that in the form of student fees. Again, I don't have a problem paying players, but if another student has to contribute even a dime unwillingly to do it, then I do. That's not what universities are supposed to be about.

And as Wetzel alluded to, the academic fraud should be the biggest scandals of them all. If an agent wants to make a bad investment by shoveling some money to Tyler Bray in hopes that he'll sign with him after graduation, by all means let him make that mistake. The NCAA's concern is that agents would go crazy and give loans to these kids and saddle them with debt they may not be able to pay off with a professional career - and that's noble for the NCAA to do - but there are other ways to prevent that from happening. The primary mission of the NCAA should be to make sure these kids get an education and anything that violates that primary mission should be seen as much more heinous than a kid getting a few extra dollars. I know the NCAA is also trying to fight off corruption and influence, but it is seemingly doing so at the expense of education. Have half your football team enrolled in a no-work class? The NCAA looks the other way and says that's an academic issue. But have a guy get $500 from a long-time family friend and he has to sit out half a season. That's messed up. The former is literally cheating these kids out of receiving the primary benefit of going to college, whereas the latter isn't a crime at all. Yet what gets punished?

In that regard, I agree with Wetzel.
09-12-2013 08:36 AM
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john01992 Offline
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
i love the component of amateurism. keeps the concept of the student athlete intact and prevents this game from becoming a glorified minor league
09-12-2013 08:42 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 08:42 AM)john01992 Wrote:  i love the component of amateurism. keeps the concept of the student athlete intact and prevents this game from becoming a glorified minor league

I've seen this argument a lot and, from my vantage point, that ship sailed away from the harbor decades ago. It has been a glorified minor league ever since the NFL became the #1 spectator sport in this country (and to be sure, I have zero issues reconciling the way I cheer for my school and knowing that it's partially a feeder system for the NFL).
09-12-2013 09:03 AM
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 08:42 AM)john01992 Wrote:  i love the component of amateurism. keeps the concept of the student athlete intact and prevents this game from becoming a glorified minor league

What amateurism? They're already receiving money for their services. It's already a minor league.
09-12-2013 09:08 AM
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NYCTUFan Offline
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 09:08 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 08:42 AM)john01992 Wrote:  i love the component of amateurism. keeps the concept of the student athlete intact and prevents this game from becoming a glorified minor league

What amateurism? They're already receiving money for their services. It's already a minor league.

Please note my sarcasm while reading.

If this is the case why not just do it right? Create a D4 of 32 universities. Each one aligned with an NFL team and they become the minor league affiliate for the NFL team. Temple for the Eagles, Rutgers for the Giants, Syracuse for the Bills ect. The NFL GM’s can make the coaching decisions and hold a player draft for high school students to fill the rosters. The players will only need to attend class on a minimal basis to cover only the basic educational skills (13th grade) and can be called to an NFL team any time Jr or Sr year. Because they are only attending the basic skills classes they are free to practice and study film 10 months out of the year 6 to 8 hours per day. After 4 years of eligibility if the kid hasn’t made an NFL roster he's kicked out to the real world to make a living.

The universities provide room and board to the kids along with a predetermined salary, say $30,000 per year (enough for bling and tats), and facilities for the teams to practice and for games, and in return they get part of the monster revenue that comes from the TV deal the NFL negotiates on their behalf. Every school not in the D4 will be downgraded to FCS and because there will no longer be TV coverage or demand for the product will be reduced to basically a club sport.
09-12-2013 09:30 AM
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Maize Offline
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
Just get rid of the current scam...
09-12-2013 09:59 AM
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
Does anyone really think giving players $2000-3000 a year is going to stop the under the table money, grade fixing, easy classes (or no classes), etc? I don't.
09-12-2013 10:04 AM
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Wilkie01 Offline
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
Yes, let us get real because football men's basketball, baseball and women's basketball are all feeder systems for professional sports. All schools make huge earnings off these students. 07-coffee3
09-12-2013 10:06 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
I expect a rollback of amateurism as it suits the interests of the P5 but maintaining in places to also suit P5 interests.

P5 will want stipends but not beyond a certain threshold (Grad Assistantships are 14,000 a year).

The FBS could vote in 18 scholarships in Men's and Women's basketball which would protect those programs better from injuries and attrition. Does FCS keep up with the Joneses and also vote in 18.....maybe but without stipends the damage has already been done.
09-12-2013 10:10 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 10:04 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  Does anyone really think giving players $2000-3000 a year is going to stop the under the table money, grade fixing, easy classes (or no classes), etc? I don't.

No but it will keep them in town for the summer weight program.

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09-12-2013 10:12 AM
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
I have no problem with being a minor league if we adopt the features of a minor league.

1. Parent club assigns talent.
2. Academic component is removed.
3. Players aren't artifically required to remain at the minor level for a minimum time period.
4. Parent club picks up all or part of the payroll.
5. In lieu assigning all players to the teams, the major teams have to buy the contract of a player from a willing school. If the Jets want Johnny Football and he has two years left with TAMU, the Jets have to make an offer TAMU is willing to accept to sell his contract.
6. No more limit on the number of years at a school.
(This post was last modified: 09-12-2013 10:13 AM by arkstfan.)
09-12-2013 10:13 AM
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 08:36 AM)CommuterBob Wrote:  http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--late...22795.html

Quote:This detestable idea was later co-opted by the NCAA and the modern Olympic Games (the ancient Greek athletes were actually paid). The public was then repeatedly sold the idea of the innocence of amateurism and sold it well. This conveniently allowed the powerful administrators to control all the revenue produced.

Amateurism is a sham in practice, too, one that simply isn't being followed or respected, as story after story after story proves. So many of the athletes, players and administrators don't believe in it. That's the value of the coverage. It's made denying the extent of the violations laughable.

Enforcing amateurism became so impossible and ridiculous that even the International Olympic Committee – still in favor of kickbacks and bribes, mind you – gave up on it … nearly three decades ago. The Olympics didn't collapse because Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps can appear in TV commercials. It actually got more popular. It'd be no different in the college game.

Quote:The real scandals don't involve money; they involve academics or drug-test fixing or other real-world issues. Systematic academic fraud – one that keeps borderline students uneducated – is what should generate the harshest penalties, the loudest condemnations and the most aggressive NCAA investigations. These are, after all, supposed to be institutions of higher learning. And the schools are very capable of looking into this stuff themselves.

That isn't how the system is set up though.

College sports wants to protect its money – making sure every dollar Manziel or Fluker or whoever can generate comes through them and only them. No side deals directly to the players. That's the motivation to stop middlemen.

I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit, but unfortunately Title IX has a large role to play in the process as well. Simply put, you cannot pay a football player without also paying a women's tennis player, or rower, or some other non-revenue sports participant. The Title IX lawsuits of the '80's and '90's have regulated as such - there must be proportional opportunity for both sexes and that includes scholarships and participation in athletics. Never mind the simple fact of life that women don't particiapte in sports at the same level of interest as men do, or the fact that by and large, women's sports (as well as many men's sports outside of football and basketball) don't generate any revenue. It's all about gender equality, which is a noble goal, but it is truly what is holding back athletes in revenue sports from getting paid.

Athletes get tons of preferential treatment within the current system as well. Many get into colleges that they could not otherwise attend (and many get into college period when they would normally be unable to qualify) simply because they are good at a sport. That's a huge benefit right off the bat. They get free tutoring, free training, preferential scheduling, all on top of their free tuition, room & board, and books. Sure they need a few more dollars to make it fully complete and to cover such things as laundry, transportation, and other soft costs, but they also have the ability now to have sponsored entertainment provided by the schools. The "slave" mentality that Wetzel and others in the media try to portray for these athletes is way off base. Yes, these athletes make millions for the schools, but they also get more than their fair share when you compare the benefits graduate students, or even faculty get for also making the schools millions in research grants. And because the revenue sports' revenue really covers the athletic department budget at only a handful of schools, most of the time the school itself is having to cover some of those costs - and most schools have the rest of the student body paying a decent chunk of that in the form of student fees. Again, I don't have a problem paying players, but if another student has to contribute even a dime unwillingly to do it, then I do. That's not what universities are supposed to be about.

And as Wetzel alluded to, the academic fraud should be the biggest scandals of them all. If an agent wants to make a bad investment by shoveling some money to Tyler Bray in hopes that he'll sign with him after graduation, by all means let him make that mistake. The NCAA's concern is that agents would go crazy and give loans to these kids and saddle them with debt they may not be able to pay off with a professional career - and that's noble for the NCAA to do - but there are other ways to prevent that from happening. The primary mission of the NCAA should be to make sure these kids get an education and anything that violates that primary mission should be seen as much more heinous than a kid getting a few extra dollars. I know the NCAA is also trying to fight off corruption and influence, but it is seemingly doing so at the expense of education. Have half your football team enrolled in a no-work class? The NCAA looks the other way and says that's an academic issue. But have a guy get $500 from a long-time family friend and he has to sit out half a season. That's messed up. The former is literally cheating these kids out of receiving the primary benefit of going to college, whereas the latter isn't a crime at all. Yet what gets punished?

In that regard, I agree with Wetzel.


Me too. I think that there should be a 16 team minor league football entity with franchises in Las Vegas, Portland, Los Angeles, Memphis, Columbus, Ohio, Baton Rouge, Orlando, Florida, Tucson, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Sacramento, CA, Birmingham, AL and a few other non-NFL cities.

I think that there should be a draft of high school players for this league. These guys should get $100,000/year or so and these franchises should be tied to two specific NFL teams.

Those teams would get to call up players from the minor league franchise they are tied to, perhaps by some sort of free agent signing or rotating selection system.

The universities would continue to play college football. NCAA football would exist separate and apart from this minor league system.

NCAA football would have stronger, higher academic standards than exist currently.

The players would have to meet academic requirements that are higher than exist now, lower to what non-athlete student admissions require, but closer to the latter than now exists.

The players that play college football and are recruited by those schools would get a full, four year scholarship ( cannot be run off for non-disciplinary/non-academic reasons) and are paid a $5,000/year stipend.
09-12-2013 10:28 AM
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CommuterBob Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 10:13 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  I have no problem with being a minor league if we adopt the features of a minor league.

1. Parent club assigns talent.
2. Academic component is removed.
3. Players aren't artifically required to remain at the minor level for a minimum time period.
4. Parent club picks up all or part of the payroll.
5. In lieu assigning all players to the teams, the major teams have to buy the contract of a player from a willing school. If the Jets want Johnny Football and he has two years left with TAMU, the Jets have to make an offer TAMU is willing to accept to sell his contract.
6. No more limit on the number of years at a school.

Not that I don't agree with your concept, but why would a school agree to hosting a basketball or football team if there wasn't an academic component? Plus, if #4 is in place, why would the pro team agree to #5?
09-12-2013 10:37 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
The P5 schools won't give up the control over NFL grooming to the level some of you guys are suggesting.

If the product on the field for the NCAA is no longer about watching the top stars the P5 schools won't like that.
09-12-2013 10:41 AM
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 10:37 AM)CommuterBob Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 10:13 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  I have no problem with being a minor league if we adopt the features of a minor league.

1. Parent club assigns talent.
2. Academic component is removed.
3. Players aren't artifically required to remain at the minor level for a minimum time period.
4. Parent club picks up all or part of the payroll.
5. In lieu assigning all players to the teams, the major teams have to buy the contract of a player from a willing school. If the Jets want Johnny Football and he has two years left with TAMU, the Jets have to make an offer TAMU is willing to accept to sell his contract.
6. No more limit on the number of years at a school.

Not that I don't agree with your concept, but why would a school agree to hosting a basketball or football team if there wasn't an academic component? Plus, if #4 is in place, why would the pro team agree to #5?

#5 is only if #4 isn't in place.

The presumption Wetzel puts forward is it is all about the money so let's get it in the open. Fine. Let's make a real minor league system.

Let Alabama sell their QB to Green Bay and then Bama can buy Arkansas State's QB.
09-12-2013 10:44 AM
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 10:28 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Me too. I think that there should be a 16 team minor league football entity with franchises in Las Vegas, Portland, Los Angeles, Memphis, Columbus, Ohio, Baton Rouge, Orlando, Florida, Tucson, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Sacramento, CA, Birmingham, AL and a few other non-NFL cities.

I think that there should be a draft of high school players for this league. These guys should get $100,000/year or so and these franchises should be tied to two specific NFL teams.

Those teams would get to call up players from the minor league franchise they are tied to, perhaps by some sort of free agent signing or rotating selection system.

The universities would continue to play college football. NCAA football would exist separate and apart from this minor league system.

NCAA football would have stronger, higher academic standards than exist currently.

The players would have to meet academic requirements that are higher than exist now, lower to what non-athlete student admissions require, but closer to the latter than now exists.

The players that play college football and are recruited by those schools would get a full, four year scholarship ( cannot be run off for non-disciplinary/non-academic reasons) and are paid a $5,000/year stipend.

I'll take it.

Won't hurt college attendance except possibly in minor league football cities and even that is not guaranteed.

The people watching to see the best players are such a small fragment of college football attendance and viewership that culling the top players who aren't there for a degree or at least a degree as a back-up isn't going to harm college football and pulling the "franchise" caliber players out of the college system will do more to stop cheating than anything else.

Talent is on a sloping curve. There are very few kids who are so superior that getting them is a huge difference maker. The further you move back up the curve the more fungible the talent gets.
09-12-2013 10:48 AM
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 10:41 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  The P5 schools won't give up the control over NFL grooming to the level some of you guys are suggesting.

If the product on the field for the NCAA is no longer about watching the top stars the P5 schools won't like that.

I think you can easily find where the P5 argued that their audience is less interested in the player's jersey than they are the school logo on the jersey. Not sure the P5 would ever utter aloud that it is about watching the best players.
09-12-2013 10:50 AM
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 10:06 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Yes, let us get real because football men's basketball, baseball and women's basketball are all feeder systems for professional sports. All schools make huge earnings off these students. 07-coffee3

Hell Willkie, college men's hockey is a feeder system for the NHL. Nearly all top-level US talent plays college hockey now and a slowly increasing number of the non-Crosby but still elite level Canadian talent is playing college hockey. The point is I agree with you buddy. 04-cheers
09-12-2013 10:59 AM
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 10:50 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 10:41 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  The P5 schools won't give up the control over NFL grooming to the level some of you guys are suggesting.

If the product on the field for the NCAA is no longer about watching the top stars the P5 schools won't like that.

I think you can easily find where the P5 argued that their audience is less interested in the player's jersey than they are the school logo on the jersey. Not sure the P5 would ever utter aloud that it is about watching the best players.

I think it would have a lot of negative ramifications if they became a version of NCAA baseball.

Less at schools in the SEC but programs like Miami and USC could really be hurt in their markets by lack of association with the top college athletes. You start to lose that crossover pro sports fan.
(This post was last modified: 09-12-2013 11:02 AM by Kittonhead.)
09-12-2013 11:01 AM
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RE: Wetzel: Amatuerism needs to go
(09-12-2013 10:13 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  I have no problem with being a minor league if we adopt the features of a minor league.

1. Parent club assigns talent.
2. Academic component is removed.
3. Players aren't artifically required to remain at the minor level for a minimum time period.
4. Parent club picks up all or part of the payroll.
5. In lieu assigning all players to the teams, the major teams have to buy the contract of a player from a willing school. If the Jets want Johnny Football and he has two years left with TAMU, the Jets have to make an offer TAMU is willing to accept to sell his contract.
6. No more limit on the number of years at a school.

There is never going to be any multi-million dollar "pot of gold" that the NFL hands out to each college that chalks the lines on a football field and puts a goal post at each end.

Those aren't "necessary" features of a minor league. This doesn't have to be AA pro baseball. It could be "minor" only in the sense that it isn't the top level league of CFB or CBB, ie more like the Canadian football league or a Euro pro basketball league.

And if "college" players are paid there would still have to be eligibility limits including the number of years, or else you would be unwisely ruining all possible "college" sports appeal. Fans will still follow their favorite CFB team if Johnny Manziel and D.J. Fluker are paid above the table instead of under the table. But fans are going to stop following these teams if the players are in their 30s and 40s, or if the players are NFL retreads looking to extend their playing career after washing out of the NFL.
09-12-2013 11:02 AM
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