Up to 68 with no more Big East(or AAC) schools listed.

19 tourney teams listed so far, so only 13 auto bids left. All 36 at large spots still up for grabs. 19 teams left to be mentioned that aren't tourney teams.

(09-03-2013 12:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Up to 68 with no more Big East(or AAC) schools listed.

19 tourney teams listed so far, so only 13 auto bids left. All 36 at large spots still up for grabs. 19 teams left to be mentioned that aren't tourney teams.

Now up to 67 and still no more Big East schools listed. There are at least 7 Big East schools ahead of Seton Hall, which means at least 70% of the conference will be in the top 76. That's real depth.

(09-03-2013 11:45 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 12:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Up to 68 with no more Big East(or AAC) schools listed.

19 tourney teams listed so far, so only 13 auto bids left. All 36 at large spots still up for grabs. 19 teams left to be mentioned that aren't tourney teams.

Now up to 67 and still no more Big East schools listed. There are at least 7 Big East schools ahead of Seton Hall, which means at least 70% of the conference will be in the top 66. That's real depth.

It's real depth, but if there are like 3 teams in the next 18 spots that are in the top 67 but not in the tourney, not sure how much it's worth. Like it or not, but folks focus a lot on the tourney. Having 3 NIT teams in addition to 4 NCAA spots doesn't move folks much.

Oh and don't kid yourself, DePaul isn't in the top 66. Lock of the day.

(09-04-2013 01:16 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 11:45 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 12:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Up to 68 with no more Big East(or AAC) schools listed.

19 tourney teams listed so far, so only 13 auto bids left. All 36 at large spots still up for grabs. 19 teams left to be mentioned that aren't tourney teams.

Now up to 67 and still no more Big East schools listed. There are at least 7 Big East schools ahead of Seton Hall, which means at least 70% of the conference will be in the top 66. That's real depth.

It's real depth, but if there are like 3 teams in the next 18 spots that are in the top 67 but not in the tourney, not sure how much it's worth. Like it or not, but folks focus a lot on the tourney. Having 3 NIT teams in addition to 4 NCAA spots doesn't move folks much.

Oh and don't kid yourself, DePaul isn't in the top 66. Lock of the day.

Whoa, Steve. Hold your horses. It's September. Way too early to be talking about NCAA tournament, NIT, etc.

It's just one website's talent evaluation going into the season. The lock of the day is that whatever they pick, it's guaranteed not to turn out that way.

What it means is that there appears to be enough talent to compete. If in fact the teams live up to the prediction, regardless of whether they are in the 60's, 50's, or 40's, etc, they will be picking up OOC wins in November, December and will be building the conference's RPI.

It means that there won't be a lot of dead weight in this conference. Just look at a league like The PAC-12. It already has Cal, Oregon State, Washington, and Washington State between 67 - 142. For all their power, The ACC has Georgia Tech, Boston College, Wake Forest, NC State, and Miami between 70 - 144.

No doubt that DePaul is off the chart. What has me on the edge of my seat ins where Butler comes in. They may well have joined DePaul in no man's land.

(09-04-2013 01:16 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 11:45 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Now up to 67 and still no more Big East schools listed. There are at least 7 Big East schools ahead of Seton Hall, which means at least 70% of the conference will be in the top 66. That's real depth.

It's real depth, but if there are like 3 teams in the next 18 spots that are in the top 67 but not in the tourney, not sure how much it's worth. Like it or not, but folks focus a lot on the tourney. Having 3 NIT teams in addition to 4 NCAA spots doesn't move folks much.

Oh and don't kid yourself, DePaul isn't in the top 66. Lock of the day.

All together now, "SEC...! SEC...! SEC...! SEC...! SEC...!"

(09-04-2013 07:21 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 01:16 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 11:45 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 12:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Up to 68 with no more Big East(or AAC) schools listed.

19 tourney teams listed so far, so only 13 auto bids left. All 36 at large spots still up for grabs. 19 teams left to be mentioned that aren't tourney teams.

Now up to 67 and still no more Big East schools listed. There are at least 7 Big East schools ahead of Seton Hall, which means at least 70% of the conference will be in the top 66. That's real depth.

It's real depth, but if there are like 3 teams in the next 18 spots that are in the top 67 but not in the tourney, not sure how much it's worth. Like it or not, but folks focus a lot on the tourney. Having 3 NIT teams in addition to 4 NCAA spots doesn't move folks much.

Oh and don't kid yourself, DePaul isn't in the top 66. Lock of the day.

Whoa, Steve. Hold your horses. It's September. Way too early to be talking about NCAA tournament, NIT, etc.

It's just one website's talent evaluation going into the season. The lock of the day is that whatever they pick, it's guaranteed not to turn out that way.

What it means is that there appears to be enough talent to compete. If in fact the teams live up to the prediction, regardless of whether they are in the 60's, 50's, or 40's, etc, they will be picking up OOC wins in November, December and will be building the conference's RPI.

It means that there won't be a lot of dead weight in this conference. Just look at a league like The PAC-12. It already has Cal, Oregon State, Washington, and Washington State between 67 - 142. For all their power, The ACC has Georgia Tech, Boston College, Wake Forest, NC State, and Miami between 70 - 144.

No doubt that DePaul is off the chart. What has me on the edge of my seat ins where Butler comes in. They may well have joined DePaul in no man's land.

Butler is an interesting one. If you look at #144 NC State, they did that on 6/18. So, that's prior to Stevens leaving and the injury. I'd venture a guess that if they had done the ratings now, Butler would have already showed up- and might be closer to 100 than 67.

One point on the depth- a conference like the ACC(with 2 teams outside the top 144, and 5 67-144 and 8 top 66) compared to the Big East(with 1 team outside the top 144, 2 67-144, and 7 top 66)- End of the day, the 18 conference games will feature just about the same amount of games vs each group. ACC can make sure the 2 teams outside the top 144 don't weigh down the top schools by playing 2x. Big East schools have to face DePaul 2x now, who has to play all 7 of those top 66 schools 2x themselves. They lose all and they're 0-14.

(09-04-2013 08:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Butler is an interesting one. If you look at #144 NC State, they did that on 6/18. So, that's prior to Stevens leaving and the injury. I'd venture a guess that if they had done the ratings now, Butler would have already showed up- and might be closer to 100 than 67.

One point on the depth- a conference like the ACC(with 2 teams outside the top 144, and 5 67-144 and 8 top 66) compared to the Big East(with 1 team outside the top 144, 2 67-144, and 7 top 66)- End of the day, the 18 conference games will feature just about the same amount of games vs each group. ACC can make sure the 2 teams outside the top 144 don't weigh down the top schools by playing 2x. Big East schools have to face DePaul 2x now, who has to play all 7 of those top 66 schools 2x themselves. They lose all and they're 0-14.

And they lost Jones, which I'm sure isn't in their evaluations either.

All I want out of DePaul is for them to wax Wichita State. If they do that then they're my new second favorite team.

A team going 0fer in the conference is probably better than having each team win a minimum of five or six games. If we're going to have sharks in the league, someone is going to have to be the chum, as long as it's not (insert favorite team here).

The thing is, looking at DePaul's OOC schedule, if they go 8-5, that's good for them. If they go 0-18 in the league and then lose 1st rd BET game, they finish 8-24. That's a real RPI killer there. Whoever finished 7th would have that 3 times.

(09-04-2013 08:59 AM)stever20 Wrote:  The thing is, looking at DePaul's OOC schedule, if they go 8-5, that's good for them. If they go 0-18 in the league and then lose 1st rd BET game, they finish 8-24. That's a real RPI killer there. Whoever finished 7th would have that 3 times.

Right, but isn't it better to have one POS team that donates two wins to every conference team? The worst thing that could happen is that there are three or four "team XXXX" types (not necessarily DePaul or SHU et al., just whomever) that wins two games against teams that finish in the top half, and splits with the other teams in the bottom half. The best needs to be the best, and not take losses from also-rans - which is exactly what held the Valley down the last few years; the bottom was just strong enough to steal a few crucial wins here and there that hosed the top, while not being strong enough to barrel through the non-conference without losing two or three games that they shouldn't have. That sort of design is a butt kicker for a conference.

Additionally, this way no one gets bad losses; it's far worse for a tourney team to lose to a 120th RPI team than to beat one 50 spots worse. That team's extreme weakness also props up the other lesser teams, making any losses to them not as bad, and makes the wins slightly better.

I've seen Nebraska up close for a long time, and they're a perfect example of a donator whose mere presence helps everyone else. Last year, at 15-18/4-14, their RPI was top 100. And DePaul's OOC sched is far better than NU's was. Even if they are 8-24 I'd bet their RPI is only about 160; like NU, buoyed by 18 games against strong competition.

I'm sure you know this but I'll say it anyway: the size of the conference pie is capped. Increasing one team's slice takes some off of someone else's plate. And since it's likely best to have as many relevant teams as possible...well, there you have it.

last year, DePaul was 11-21. They finished 202 RPI. So with 3 fewer wins, that drops down to about 225-230.

I think a point- DePaul last year played the other 6 C7 schools only 7 times. Only St John's they played 2x. So, the other 5 schools will get a 2nd RPI bomb this year. You say, wait, what about USF or Rutgers. USF was 151, Rutgers 109(who knew?). So, nothing like the RPI bomb that DePaul was(and could be even worse this year quite frankly).

Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall played DePaul and USF(the 2 worst teams last year) only 2x. So will see a decent drop by having to see DePaul a 2nd time instead of USF.

There's a simple fix to that.

Just take off one of the 200+ RPI cupcakes that we all play from the OOC schedule and stick in a 75-125 RPI team. In essence, you're trading a semi-challenging conference game (and an easy W OOC) for a semi-challenging OOC game, with an easy W in conference.

I still stand by my original point: an extra game against an atrocious league team is offset by every other team that would have lost to them being that much better in the RPI.

(09-04-2013 08:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 07:21 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 01:16 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 11:45 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 12:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  Up to 68 with no more Big East(or AAC) schools listed.

19 tourney teams listed so far, so only 13 auto bids left. All 36 at large spots still up for grabs. 19 teams left to be mentioned that aren't tourney teams.

Now up to 67 and still no more Big East schools listed. There are at least 7 Big East schools ahead of Seton Hall, which means at least 70% of the conference will be in the top 66. That's real depth.

It's real depth, but if there are like 3 teams in the next 18 spots that are in the top 67 but not in the tourney, not sure how much it's worth. Like it or not, but folks focus a lot on the tourney. Having 3 NIT teams in addition to 4 NCAA spots doesn't move folks much.

Oh and don't kid yourself, DePaul isn't in the top 66. Lock of the day.

Whoa, Steve. Hold your horses. It's September. Way too early to be talking about NCAA tournament, NIT, etc.

It's just one website's talent evaluation going into the season. The lock of the day is that whatever they pick, it's guaranteed not to turn out that way.

What it means is that there appears to be enough talent to compete. If in fact the teams live up to the prediction, regardless of whether they are in the 60's, 50's, or 40's, etc, they will be picking up OOC wins in November, December and will be building the conference's RPI.

It means that there won't be a lot of dead weight in this conference. Just look at a league like The PAC-12. It already has Cal, Oregon State, Washington, and Washington State between 67 - 142. For all their power, The ACC has Georgia Tech, Boston College, Wake Forest, NC State, and Miami between 70 - 144.

No doubt that DePaul is off the chart. What has me on the edge of my seat ins where Butler comes in. They may well have joined DePaul in no man's land.

Butler is an interesting one. If you look at #144 NC State, they did that on 6/18. So, that's prior to Stevens leaving and the injury. I'd venture a guess that if they had done the ratings now, Butler would have already showed up- and might be closer to 100 than 67.

One point on the depth- a conference like the ACC(with 2 teams outside the top 144, and 5 67-144 and 8 top 66) compared to the Big East(with 1 team outside the top 144, 2 67-144, and 7 top 66)- End of the day, the 18 conference games will feature just about the same amount of games vs each group. ACC can make sure the 2 teams outside the top 144 don't weigh down the top schools by playing 2x. Big East schools have to face DePaul 2x now, who has to play all 7 of those top 66 schools 2x themselves. They lose all and they're 0-14.

But the Big East also gets to play everyone at the top 2x. That doesn't happen in the ACC.

(09-04-2013 08:52 AM)handdownmandown Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 08:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Butler is an interesting one. If you look at #144 NC State, they did that on 6/18. So, that's prior to Stevens leaving and the injury. I'd venture a guess that if they had done the ratings now, Butler would have already showed up- and might be closer to 100 than 67.

One point on the depth- a conference like the ACC(with 2 teams outside the top 144, and 5 67-144 and 8 top 66) compared to the Big East(with 1 team outside the top 144, 2 67-144, and 7 top 66)- End of the day, the 18 conference games will feature just about the same amount of games vs each group. ACC can make sure the 2 teams outside the top 144 don't weigh down the top schools by playing 2x. Big East schools have to face DePaul 2x now, who has to play all 7 of those top 66 schools 2x themselves. They lose all and they're 0-14.

And they lost Jones, which I'm sure isn't in their evaluations either.

All I want out of DePaul is for them to wax Wichita State. If they do that then they're my new second favorite team.

The fact that they're rolling them out one day at a time means they can revise as they go along. I doubt we'll see a write up for Butler that was done in June if in fact they are still on the list. My hunch is they've been dropped.

(09-04-2013 10:46 AM)handdownmandown Wrote:  There's a simple fix to that.

Just take off one of the 200+ RPI cupcakes that we all play from the OOC schedule and stick in a 75-125 RPI team. In essence, you're trading a semi-challenging conference game (and an easy W OOC) for a semi-challenging OOC game, with an easy W in conference.

I still stand by my original point: an extra game against an atrocious league team is offset by every other team that would have lost to them being that much better in the RPI.

2 problems with doing a 75-125 rpi team ooc...
1- have to do home/home with those teams, costing you a home date every other year
or
2- have to do a buy type game hopefully, which will cost you however much it costs to buy the opponent.

some coaches are going to have to change the way they schedule OOC quite frankly.
last year- OOC SOS
Georgetown 181
Marqette 104
Villanova 167
Providence 265
St Johns 153
Seton Hall 237
DePaul 334

With the drop in the conference SOS(which will happen- last year the 7 C7 schools all had top 27 conference SOS- that just won't happen in the new Big East), teams are going to have to make up that difference OOC. What you were saying was going to have to happen regardless.

Now, compare this to what Butler, Xavier, and Creighton did sos:
Butler OOC 60 Conf 57
Xavier OOC 91 Conf 77
Creighton OOC 67 Conf 124

So, all 3 played better schedules OOC than any of the BE schools did.

It'll be interesting to see if the 3 newbies continue to schedule great OOC, and conversely, if the C7 starts scheduling better OOC.

(09-04-2013 10:38 AM)stever20 Wrote:  last year, DePaul was 11-21. They finished 202 RPI. So with 3 fewer wins, that drops down to about 225-230.

I think a point- DePaul last year played the other 6 C7 schools only 7 times. Only St John's they played 2x. So, the other 5 schools will get a 2nd RPI bomb this year. You say, wait, what about USF or Rutgers. USF was 151, Rutgers 109(who knew?). So, nothing like the RPI bomb that DePaul was(and could be even worse this year quite frankly).

Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall played DePaul and USF(the 2 worst teams last year) only 2x. So will see a decent drop by having to see DePaul a 2nd time instead of USF.

You're simply rolling over last year's RPI and assuming dePaul willbe the same team this year. They won't. They have almost everyone back from last year; with the extra year of experience they should be better. They also had a pretty deep recruiting class, which included a 4* player who could help immediately.

(09-04-2013 10:51 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 08:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 07:21 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 01:16 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-03-2013 11:45 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Now up to 67 and still no more Big East schools listed. There are at least 7 Big East schools ahead of Seton Hall, which means at least 70% of the conference will be in the top 66. That's real depth.

It's real depth, but if there are like 3 teams in the next 18 spots that are in the top 67 but not in the tourney, not sure how much it's worth. Like it or not, but folks focus a lot on the tourney. Having 3 NIT teams in addition to 4 NCAA spots doesn't move folks much.

Oh and don't kid yourself, DePaul isn't in the top 66. Lock of the day.

Whoa, Steve. Hold your horses. It's September. Way too early to be talking about NCAA tournament, NIT, etc.

It's just one website's talent evaluation going into the season. The lock of the day is that whatever they pick, it's guaranteed not to turn out that way.

What it means is that there appears to be enough talent to compete. If in fact the teams live up to the prediction, regardless of whether they are in the 60's, 50's, or 40's, etc, they will be picking up OOC wins in November, December and will be building the conference's RPI.

It means that there won't be a lot of dead weight in this conference. Just look at a league like The PAC-12. It already has Cal, Oregon State, Washington, and Washington State between 67 - 142. For all their power, The ACC has Georgia Tech, Boston College, Wake Forest, NC State, and Miami between 70 - 144.

No doubt that DePaul is off the chart. What has me on the edge of my seat ins where Butler comes in. They may well have joined DePaul in no man's land.

Butler is an interesting one. If you look at #144 NC State, they did that on 6/18. So, that's prior to Stevens leaving and the injury. I'd venture a guess that if they had done the ratings now, Butler would have already showed up- and might be closer to 100 than 67.

One point on the depth- a conference like the ACC(with 2 teams outside the top 144, and 5 67-144 and 8 top 66) compared to the Big East(with 1 team outside the top 144, 2 67-144, and 7 top 66)- End of the day, the 18 conference games will feature just about the same amount of games vs each group. ACC can make sure the 2 teams outside the top 144 don't weigh down the top schools by playing 2x. Big East schools have to face DePaul 2x now, who has to play all 7 of those top 66 schools 2x themselves. They lose all and they're 0-14.

But the Big East also gets to play everyone at the top 2x. That doesn't happen in the ACC.

But the ACC can gerrymander the schedule so a top team gets the 7 games naturally vs all the other top 66 schools, but then for the 4 teams you play 2x, somehow at least 3 of those games are against the other top 66 schools. Also, they can make sure they generally don't see the weaker schools 2x.

Also, and we'll see as the ratings get released, the ACC's top tier is probably going to be higher than the Big East's top tier. A game vs #4 Duke is stronger than a game vs #15 Georgetown for example.

(09-04-2013 10:53 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 08:52 AM)handdownmandown Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 08:39 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Butler is an interesting one. If you look at #144 NC State, they did that on 6/18. So, that's prior to Stevens leaving and the injury. I'd venture a guess that if they had done the ratings now, Butler would have already showed up- and might be closer to 100 than 67.

One point on the depth- a conference like the ACC(with 2 teams outside the top 144, and 5 67-144 and 8 top 66) compared to the Big East(with 1 team outside the top 144, 2 67-144, and 7 top 66)- End of the day, the 18 conference games will feature just about the same amount of games vs each group. ACC can make sure the 2 teams outside the top 144 don't weigh down the top schools by playing 2x. Big East schools have to face DePaul 2x now, who has to play all 7 of those top 66 schools 2x themselves. They lose all and they're 0-14.

And they lost Jones, which I'm sure isn't in their evaluations either.

All I want out of DePaul is for them to wax Wichita State. If they do that then they're my new second favorite team.

The fact that they're rolling them out one day at a time means they can revise as they go along. I doubt we'll see a write up for Butler that was done in June if in fact they are still on the list. My hunch is they've been dropped.

I'd be shocked if they were dropped quite frankly. Just too good to not be in the top 144. I think they could make a small tweak, but nothing like dropping them from top 60 to out of the top 144.

(09-04-2013 11:05 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 10:46 AM)handdownmandown Wrote:  There's a simple fix to that.

Just take off one of the 200+ RPI cupcakes that we all play from the OOC schedule and stick in a 75-125 RPI team. In essence, you're trading a semi-challenging conference game (and an easy W OOC) for a semi-challenging OOC game, with an easy W in conference.

I still stand by my original point: an extra game against an atrocious league team is offset by every other team that would have lost to them being that much better in the RPI.

2 problems with doing a 75-125 rpi team ooc...
1- have to do home/home with those teams, costing you a home date every other year
or
2- have to do a buy type game hopefully, which will cost you however much it costs to buy the opponent.

some coaches are going to have to change the way they schedule OOC quite frankly.
last year- OOC SOS
Georgetown 181
Marqette 104
Villanova 167
Providence 265
St Johns 153
Seton Hall 237
DePaul 334

With the drop in the conference SOS(which will happen- last year the 7 C7 schools all had top 27 conference SOS- that just won't happen in the new Big East), teams are going to have to make up that difference OOC. What you were saying was going to have to happen regardless.

Now, compare this to what Butler, Xavier, and Creighton did sos:
Butler OOC 60 Conf 57
Xavier OOC 91 Conf 77
Creighton OOC 67 Conf 124

So, all 3 played better schedules OOC than any of the BE schools did.

It'll be interesting to see if the 3 newbies continue to schedule great OOC, and conversely, if the C7 starts scheduling better OOC.

This is really a non-issue. The conference schedule is strong enough.

(09-04-2013 11:08 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(09-04-2013 10:38 AM)stever20 Wrote:  last year, DePaul was 11-21. They finished 202 RPI. So with 3 fewer wins, that drops down to about 225-230.

I think a point- DePaul last year played the other 6 C7 schools only 7 times. Only St John's they played 2x. So, the other 5 schools will get a 2nd RPI bomb this year. You say, wait, what about USF or Rutgers. USF was 151, Rutgers 109(who knew?). So, nothing like the RPI bomb that DePaul was(and could be even worse this year quite frankly).

Georgetown, Providence, and Seton Hall played DePaul and USF(the 2 worst teams last year) only 2x. So will see a decent drop by having to see DePaul a 2nd time instead of USF.

You're simply rolling over last year's RPI and assuming dePaul willbe the same team this year. They won't. They have almost everyone back from last year; with the extra year of experience they should be better. They also had a pretty deep recruiting class, which included a 4* player who could help immediately.

The thing is, now they'll have to see Georgetown, Nova, Marquette, Providence all a 2nd time, along with Seton Hall, and then of course Butler, Creighton, and Xavier 2x. And, going with the point that was being made, if DePaul wins 5-6 games, they still would be a 14-18 team with a 150ish RPI, but then the teams they beat would be that much lower as well.