Especially when compared to other countries

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/#post-72001

Quote:Is seven years old too early to start teaching computer science? Vietnam doesn’t think so.

Google software engineer Neil Fraser visited a school in Vietnam where computer science classes begin in the second grade and continue right up to graduation. By fourth grade, students were already writing programs using loops, and by “grade 5 they are writing procedures containing loops calling procedures containing loops,” he says. By eleventh grade they regularly handle problems, he says, that are as difficult as the ones Google uses to test job applicants in interviews.

Meanwhile, juniors and seniors at San Francisco’s magnet school for science and technology struggle with subjects the Vietnamese students had already mastered in fourth and fifth grade.

How many jobs are out there where you have to major in math compared to computer science?

"School boards fight to keep CS out of schools, since every minute spent on CS is one less minute spent on core subjects like English and math. The students’ test scores in these core subjects determine next year’s funding, so CS is a threat."

As far as English goes, it's easy to see that millions of Americans can neither write, nor speak it properly. The school boards have it all backwards. Thanks America.

(08-20-2013 10:08 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  How many jobs are out there where you have to major in math compared to computer science?

"School boards fight to keep CS out of schools, since every minute spent on CS is one less minute spent on core subjects like English and math. The students’ test scores in these core subjects determine next year’s funding, so CS is a threat."

As far as English goes, it's easy to see that millions of Americans can neither write, nor speak it properly. The school boards have it all backwards. Thanks America.

Both require a lot of math if educated properly, IMO. No idea what you are talking about here. My question is whether or not they are teaching the critical thinking skills required for troubleshooting code.

I was talking about this with several other engineers recently, and all of us have seen the same thing with the current generation of CS grads... the lack of the full math background (calc, physics, etc.) has really taken down the critical thinking skills in our opinion. They are unable to test and troubleshoot their code to the full extend thus introducing more bugs into developed code. I would be very concerned that is happening in Vietnam as well. Just because you know how to program doesn't mean you know how to handle error exceptions, security, and a whole other host of things that need to be accounted for while developing software. Sure, you've churned out more programmers but at what future cost? They've dumbed down the profession to be more or less assembly line workers, but they don't understand the full picture of what they are doing nor understand why their software either works or doesn't work correctly.

Take the CS/IS degrees out of the business college and move them back to the engineering college to make sure we are producing the most qualified candidates instead of the largest number of them.

Figures a country leaning left would provide better education...

(08-20-2013 10:17 AM)mlb Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 10:08 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  How many jobs are out there where you have to major in math compared to computer science?

"School boards fight to keep CS out of schools, since every minute spent on CS is one less minute spent on core subjects like English and math. The students’ test scores in these core subjects determine next year’s funding, so CS is a threat."

As far as English goes, it's easy to see that millions of Americans can neither write, nor speak it properly. The school boards have it all backwards. Thanks America.

Both require a lot of math if educated properly, IMO. No idea what you are talking about here. My question is whether or not they are teaching the critical thinking skills required for troubleshooting code.

I was talking about this with several other engineers recently, and all of us have seen the same thing with the current generation of CS grads... the lack of the full math background (calc, physics, etc.) has really taken down the critical thinking skills in our opinion. They are unable to test and troubleshoot their code to the full extend thus introducing more bugs into developed code. I would be very concerned that is happening in Vietnam as well. Just because you know how to program doesn't mean you know how to handle error exceptions, security, and a whole other host of things that need to be accounted for while developing software. Sure, you've churned out more programmers but at what future cost? They've dumbed down the profession to be more or less assembly line workers, but they don't understand the full picture of what they are doing nor understand why their software either works or doesn't work correctly.

Take the CS/IS degrees out of the business college and move them back to the engineering college to make sure we are producing the most qualified candidates instead of the largest number of them.

The troubleshooting is gained with experience, maybe not as easy, but builds a better knowledge on the system than what may be taught in school. Not in all cases, but in probably 50%. When I was a supervisor in the oilfield (just a High School education bc I wasn't ready for college when I started), I had to take dimensions, size of casing, depth of zone, etc and make several different calculations to be within 0.01 of the volume I had to run on the very last stage of each frac job. I hated math, had to take it twice in summer school, and never had a single issue with it once I had to use it for my job. I'm going back to school in January to get an associate in Applied Science in Oil and Gas Production Technology (Engineering course) and the only math I have to take is Applied Technical Math (Math 129) and College Algebra (Math 102). My other option was Applied Science in Engineering but that required Calculus I, II, III, & IV... Yeah, fuuuuck that... I know what you mean about all the math for the engineering you went into.

(08-20-2013 10:22 AM)psualltheway5 Wrote:  Figures a country leaning left would provide better education...

Do leftists ever offer anything that isn't fallacious?

I learned to program BASIC as a third grader through a program for gifted students at the public elementary school I attended.

We will never have strong CS if we refuse to pay people to take the position.

(08-20-2013 11:06 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 10:22 AM)psualltheway5 Wrote:  Figures a country leaning left would provide better education...

Do leftists ever offer anything that isn't fallacious?

Is it not true?

(08-20-2013 12:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  We will never have strong CS if we refuse to pay people to take the position.

More nonsense from the left.


Reality, entry level pay:
•Computer science- $63,017
•Computer engineering- $60,112
•Information sciences & systems- $56,868
•Business systems networking/telecommunications- $56,808
Compared to liberal arts graduates, who the NACE stated as receiving a starting salary of $35,633, computer science majors earned a 43% higher starting salary on average, which amounts to more than a $27,000 difference.

(08-20-2013 12:06 PM)Jerry Falwell Wrote:  More nonsense from the left.

Reality, entry level pay:
•Computer science- $63,017
•Computer engineering- $60,112
•Information sciences & systems- $56,868
•Business systems networking/telecommunications- $56,808
Compared to liberal arts graduates, who the NACE stated as receiving a starting salary of $35,633, computer science majors earned a 43% higher starting salary on average, which amounts to more than a $27,000 difference.

I'm shocked that the average entry level pay is that high... no company I've ever worked for here in Ohio pays anywhere close to that for entry level. Granted, we have a lower cost of living, but you can expect roughly half that to start.

(08-20-2013 12:05 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 11:06 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 10:22 AM)psualltheway5 Wrote:  Figures a country leaning left would provide better education...

Do leftists ever offer anything that isn't fallacious?

Is it not true?

Not from this article.

(08-20-2013 12:06 PM)Jerry Falwell Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 12:03 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  We will never have strong CS if we refuse to pay people to take the position.

More nonsense from the left.


Reality, entry level pay:
•Computer science- $63,017
•Computer engineering- $60,112
•Information sciences & systems- $56,868
•Business systems networking/telecommunications- $56,808
Compared to liberal arts graduates, who the NACE stated as receiving a starting salary of $35,633, computer science majors earned a 43% higher starting salary on average, which amounts to more than a $27,000 difference.

Nonsense from the left? I'm not even on the left.

Anyway, I was talking about paying them for the teaching position, not for jobs outside of that. Sorry if that wasn't clear--I thought it was obvious.

(08-20-2013 12:13 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Anyway, I was talking about paying them for the teaching position, not for jobs outside of that. Sorry if that wasn't clear--I thought it was obvious.

Teachers' pay is actually quite generous these days. Maybe certain fields it's hard to recruit experts, but in general, teachers are paid above the average.

(08-20-2013 12:22 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 12:13 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Anyway, I was talking about paying them for the teaching position, not for jobs outside of that. Sorry if that wasn't clear--I thought it was obvious.

Teachers' pay is actually quite generous these days. Maybe certain fields it's hard to recruit experts, but in general, teachers are paid above the average.

But the subject is CS. Where do you think a system can woo a real CS instructor away from a more lucrative job?

(08-20-2013 12:24 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 12:22 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 12:13 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Anyway, I was talking about paying them for the teaching position, not for jobs outside of that. Sorry if that wasn't clear--I thought it was obvious.

Teachers' pay is actually quite generous these days. Maybe certain fields it's hard to recruit experts, but in general, teachers are paid above the average.

But the subject is CS. Where do you think a system can woo a real CS instructor away from a more lucrative job?

Do you need an SME to teach intro CS?

I don't need a Fields Medalist to teach arithmetic.

(08-20-2013 12:32 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 12:24 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 12:22 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 12:13 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Anyway, I was talking about paying them for the teaching position, not for jobs outside of that. Sorry if that wasn't clear--I thought it was obvious.

Teachers' pay is actually quite generous these days. Maybe certain fields it's hard to recruit experts, but in general, teachers are paid above the average.

But the subject is CS. Where do you think a system can woo a real CS instructor away from a more lucrative job?

Do you need an SME to teach intro CS?

I don't need a Fields Medalist to teach arithmetic.

No, but wasn't the complaint about how weak CS is in our schools? How can that be fixed?

(08-20-2013 12:32 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Do you need an SME to teach intro CS?

Not intro, but after the very early classes you will need someone with a vast knowledge of the language they are teaching. Those people stand to make a lot more in a private position vs teaching.

Let's put it this way... you might be able to get away with someone who isn't an expert to teach the elementary students, but come middle school and HS you will need someone whom has a depth of knowledge that is just not affordable in today's school systems.

(08-20-2013 12:35 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 12:32 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 12:24 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 12:22 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(08-20-2013 12:13 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Anyway, I was talking about paying them for the teaching position, not for jobs outside of that. Sorry if that wasn't clear--I thought it was obvious.

Teachers' pay is actually quite generous these days. Maybe certain fields it's hard to recruit experts, but in general, teachers are paid above the average.

But the subject is CS. Where do you think a system can woo a real CS instructor away from a more lucrative job?

Do you need an SME to teach intro CS?

I don't need a Fields Medalist to teach arithmetic.

No, but wasn't the complaint about how weak CS is in our schools? How can that be fixed?

The article offered some ideas. I can't say that they're all spot on, but simply increasing salaries has not improved education over the past decades.

(08-20-2013 12:13 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Nonsense from the left? I'm not even on the left.

Anyway, I was talking about paying them for the teaching position, not for jobs outside of that. Sorry if that wasn't clear--I thought it was obvious.

It seemed like something a leftie would say. Sorry for the assumption.

I suspect the pay is higher than what we would guess b/c of government salaries.