(08-18-2013 03:09 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 03:06 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 02:57 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 01:59 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 12:17 PM)CommuterBob Wrote:  I disagree. I think a formalized lower subdivision playoff will not be viewed well. Look at FCS. Nationally, nobody cares about their playoff. Without the designation of being in the top division, the networks wouldn't care about them at all. A P5 split would be the death of many G5 programs.

I tend to agree with ULdave. I think a G5 playoff would generate a great deal of interest. .

A G-5 playoff would be of no more interest than the current FCS playoff. It would be the NIT to the P5's NCAA 64 team tournament. It would be an unwatched after thought shoved off to some obscure cable channel or available only on the Internet.

People care about the national champion. They want to know who the best team in the entire nation is. They don't care who the Division 3 champ is. They don't care who national JC champ is. They dont care about division II or FCS champs. They want to know who the BEST is. That is found at the top of D1--- and nowhere else. People are not stupid. There is only drama if people care and people will not care.

I can tell you I'll walk away from the college game if my team is playing peewee ball. I just cant work up an ounce of enthusiasm for the concept. Sorry. It is what it is. I'll follow the Houston Texans and will only worry about college players in the April draft.

Not me. I would love to see SMU play Boise State for the College Football Division National championship. If people only care about the National Champion why do they watch the bowl games.....

Because its the top level of football.

Exactly. Even if it is a separate playoff, (e.g. the NIT), it would get little attention nationally and only be a big deal for those local teams that participate. Nobody watches the NIT outside of the hardcore fans of those in it. It's absurd to think that there would be a national audience for a lesser level of the product, when it has been pretty much proven that there is no national audience for the lesser levels of the sport now (FCS), especially knowing the networks would almost certainly drop the regular season coverage.

(08-18-2013 03:09 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Not me. I would love to see SMU play Boise State for the College Football Division National championship. If people only care about the National Champion why do they watch the bowl games.....

Because its the top level of football. Ever seen a JC bowl game? Bet you didn't even know they existed. [/quote]
Exactly. The broadcast networks hype "bowl games" as a thing, and so "bowl games" are a thing, and while everyone knows that some bowl games are bigger deals than others, still, "we are going to a bowl game".

National Championship > Big Fat Hairy Deal Bowl Games > Bowl Game > lower tier National Championship

Going from FBS lower tier bowl to "second tier national championship" is a drop down in status. If there was a divisional breakdown between the P5 and all or most of the Go5, then the second tier national championship would be a bigger deal than any other second-tier-only bowl games.

(08-18-2013 12:09 PM)Cnelson203 Wrote:  I feel sorry for these schools because they are being blocked from achieving what they wish to achieve, although I think some of them would find life fairly difficult in the P5 and end up one of the bottom feeders in most years. For me, I'd rather have a shot at a conference championship (it's been a while for us) on a year to year basis, rather than 6-6 or worse every year.

You seem to have a very healthy attitude about the position of your school. As a USF fan, I cop to the P5 envy that you describe. No question, our fan base is strictly focused on gaining P5 status and we will be restless and unhappy until that happens. And it could be a very long wait for us.

As for life being difficult in the P5, USF experienced that in the Big East on the basketball side. Before joining the Beast, we were a decent C-USA program. But in the 9 years we played in the Big East, we were fed into the meat-grinder every year but one. Sure, it was cool to have big names like Syracuse and Georgetown come to our abode, but ...

What everyone has to keep in mind is that there will be a large overlap between the P5 and G5. The top half of the G5 can easily play head-to-head with the bottom half of the P5. It's only the Top 25 that would have a clear advantage over the G5. And that's not going to change.

It's not like the bottom of the P5 would be 14 point favorites over the top of the G5.

(08-18-2013 07:46 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  What everyone has to keep in mind is that there will be a large overlap between the P5 and G5. The top half of the G5 can easily play head-to-head with the bottom half of the P5. It's only the Top 25 that would have a clear advantage over the G5. And that's not going to change.

It's not like the bottom of the P5 would be 14 point favorites over the top of the G5.

I'm not sure the upper teams in the P-5 would deserve to be 14 point favorites over the top teams from the G5. Maybe LSU and Alabama--really nobody else. And Alabama and LSU are 14 point favorites over most of the P-5.

(08-18-2013 09:16 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 07:46 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  What everyone has to keep in mind is that there will be a large overlap between the P5 and G5. The top half of the G5 can easily play head-to-head with the bottom half of the P5. It's only the Top 25 that would have a clear advantage over the G5. And that's not going to change.

It's not like the bottom of the P5 would be 14 point favorites over the top of the G5.

I'm not sure the upper teams in the P-5 would deserve to be 14 point favorites over the top teams from the G5. Maybe LSU and Alabama--really nobody else. And Alabama and LSU are 14 point favorites over most of the P-5.

I probably agree. My point is that if Syracuse & Iowa State think they're going to be 14 points better Cincinnati & Fresno just because they (Syracuse & Iowa State) are P5, they're insane.

(08-18-2013 06:50 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 12:09 PM)Cnelson203 Wrote:  I feel sorry for these schools because they are being blocked from achieving what they wish to achieve, although I think some of them would find life fairly difficult in the P5 and end up one of the bottom feeders in most years. For me, I'd rather have a shot at a conference championship (it's been a while for us) on a year to year basis, rather than 6-6 or worse every year.

You seem to have a very healthy attitude about the position of your school. As a USF fan, I cop to the P5 envy that you describe. No question, our fan base is strictly focused on gaining P5 status and we will be restless and unhappy until that happens. And it could be a very long wait for us.

As for life being difficult in the P5, USF experienced that in the Big East on the basketball side. Before joining the Beast, we were a decent C-USA program. But in the 9 years we played in the Big East, we were fed into the meat-grinder every year but one. Sure, it was cool to have big names like Syracuse and Georgetown come to our abode, but ...

...but then USF got a good coach and put together a run in 2011-2012 where USF started beating some of those teams and got an at-large berth to the dance. Having the chance to compete at the highest level lead to the ability to contend at the highest level.

(08-18-2013 10:39 PM)CommuterBob Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 06:50 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 12:09 PM)Cnelson203 Wrote:  I feel sorry for these schools because they are being blocked from achieving what they wish to achieve, although I think some of them would find life fairly difficult in the P5 and end up one of the bottom feeders in most years. For me, I'd rather have a shot at a conference championship (it's been a while for us) on a year to year basis, rather than 6-6 or worse every year.

You seem to have a very healthy attitude about the position of your school. As a USF fan, I cop to the P5 envy that you describe. No question, our fan base is strictly focused on gaining P5 status and we will be restless and unhappy until that happens. And it could be a very long wait for us.

As for life being difficult in the P5, USF experienced that in the Big East on the basketball side. Before joining the Beast, we were a decent C-USA program. But in the 9 years we played in the Big East, we were fed into the meat-grinder every year but one. Sure, it was cool to have big names like Syracuse and Georgetown come to our abode, but ...

...but then USF got a good coach and put together a run in 2011-2012 where USF started beating some of those teams and got an at-large berth to the dance. Having the chance to compete at the highest level lead to the ability to contend at the highest level.

... then last year we were 3-15 in the Big East. Distressing, but the record shows that 2010-2012 were two aberration years, not a positive trend.

(08-18-2013 11:57 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 10:39 PM)CommuterBob Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 06:50 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 12:09 PM)Cnelson203 Wrote:  I feel sorry for these schools because they are being blocked from achieving what they wish to achieve, although I think some of them would find life fairly difficult in the P5 and end up one of the bottom feeders in most years. For me, I'd rather have a shot at a conference championship (it's been a while for us) on a year to year basis, rather than 6-6 or worse every year.

You seem to have a very healthy attitude about the position of your school. As a USF fan, I cop to the P5 envy that you describe. No question, our fan base is strictly focused on gaining P5 status and we will be restless and unhappy until that happens. And it could be a very long wait for us.

As for life being difficult in the P5, USF experienced that in the Big East on the basketball side. Before joining the Beast, we were a decent C-USA program. But in the 9 years we played in the Big East, we were fed into the meat-grinder every year but one. Sure, it was cool to have big names like Syracuse and Georgetown come to our abode, but ...

...but then USF got a good coach and put together a run in 2011-2012 where USF started beating some of those teams and got an at-large berth to the dance. Having the chance to compete at the highest level lead to the ability to contend at the highest level.

... then last year we were 3-15 in the Big East. Distressing, but the record shows that 2010-2012 were two aberration years, not a positive trend.

Yet still you had a taste of success. Even Northwestern and Wake have had years in which they won their conference in football. The point is that it can be done, as long as you have the shot. It cannot be done if you don't. It may not be sustained success, but so many programs hang their hat on one or two aberration seasons anyway.

(08-18-2013 04:47 PM)CommuterBob Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 03:09 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 03:06 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 02:57 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 01:59 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  I tend to agree with ULdave. I think a G5 playoff would generate a great deal of interest. .

A G-5 playoff would be of no more interest than the current FCS playoff. It would be the NIT to the P5's NCAA 64 team tournament. It would be an unwatched after thought shoved off to some obscure cable channel or available only on the Internet.

People care about the national champion. They want to know who the best team in the entire nation is. They don't care who the Division 3 champ is. They don't care who national JC champ is. They dont care about division II or FCS champs. They want to know who the BEST is. That is found at the top of D1--- and nowhere else. People are not stupid. There is only drama if people care and people will not care.

I can tell you I'll walk away from the college game if my team is playing peewee ball. I just cant work up an ounce of enthusiasm for the concept. Sorry. It is what it is. I'll follow the Houston Texans and will only worry about college players in the April draft.

Not me. I would love to see SMU play Boise State for the College Football Division National championship. If people only care about the National Champion why do they watch the bowl games.....

Because its the top level of football.

Exactly. Even if it is a separate playoff, (e.g. the NIT), it would get little attention nationally and only be a big deal for those local teams that participate. Nobody watches the NIT outside of the hardcore fans of those in it. It's absurd to think that there would be a national audience for a lesser level of the product, when it has been pretty much proven that there is no national audience for the lesser levels of the sport now (FCS), especially knowing the networks would almost certainly drop the regular season coverage.

You both are thinking too much like how the B5 wants (a playoff without them would lack interest)…. I’ve posted before; we (the G5) beat them at their game by changing the rules—which is what they want to do to us. I agree that the G5 playoffs wouldn’t generate close to the same interest as the B5 playoffs. Therefore, if a split occurs, we make our games more interesting by playing CIS conference champs.

We could have four playoff games; two in the states and two in Canada. The games in the states would be played by our rules while the games in Canada would be played by theirs. Another option is forming unified rules for our international games. The games would be based on conference locations. The following conference champ matchups could be:

Canada West Football Conference @ MWC

MAC @ Ontario University Athletics

Réseau du sport étudiant du Québec @ The American

CUSA @ Atlantic University Football Conference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIS_Football

Each conference matchup would rotate hosting a playoff. The winners of each game would receive a North America Champion Trophy/Cup. Not only could this draw more viewers in the states for our playoffs, we would have the Canadian audience as well. Our International playoffs could surpass the upcoming college playoffs…..

(08-19-2013 12:44 AM)Underdog Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 04:47 PM)CommuterBob Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 03:09 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 03:06 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-18-2013 02:57 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  A G-5 playoff would be of no more interest than the current FCS playoff. It would be the NIT to the P5's NCAA 64 team tournament. It would be an unwatched after thought shoved off to some obscure cable channel or available only on the Internet.

People care about the national champion. They want to know who the best team in the entire nation is. They don't care who the Division 3 champ is. They don't care who national JC champ is. They dont care about division II or FCS champs. They want to know who the BEST is. That is found at the top of D1--- and nowhere else. People are not stupid. There is only drama if people care and people will not care.

I can tell you I'll walk away from the college game if my team is playing peewee ball. I just cant work up an ounce of enthusiasm for the concept. Sorry. It is what it is. I'll follow the Houston Texans and will only worry about college players in the April draft.

Not me. I would love to see SMU play Boise State for the College Football Division National championship. If people only care about the National Champion why do they watch the bowl games.....

Because its the top level of football.

Exactly. Even if it is a separate playoff, (e.g. the NIT), it would get little attention nationally and only be a big deal for those local teams that participate. Nobody watches the NIT outside of the hardcore fans of those in it. It's absurd to think that there would be a national audience for a lesser level of the product, when it has been pretty much proven that there is no national audience for the lesser levels of the sport now (FCS), especially knowing the networks would almost certainly drop the regular season coverage.

You both are thinking too much like how the B5 wants (a playoff without them would lack interest)…. I’ve posted before; we (the G5) beat them at their game by changing the rules—which is what they want to do to us. I agree that the G5 playoffs wouldn’t generate close to the same interest as the B5 playoffs. Therefore, if a split occurs, we make are games more interesting by playing CIS conference champs.

We could have four playoff games; two in the states and two in Canada. The games in the states would be played by our rules while the games in Canada would be played by theirs. Another option is forming unified rules for our international games. The games would be based on conference locations. The following conference champ matchups could be:

Canada West Football Conference @ MWC

MAC @ Ontario University Athletics

Réseau du sport étudiant du Québec @ The American

CUSA @ Atlantic University Football Conference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIS_Football

Each conference matchup would rotate hosting a playoff. The winners of each game would receive a North American Champion Trophy/Cup. Not only could this draw more viewers in the states for our playoffs, we would have the Canadian audience as well. Our International playoffs could surpass the upcoming college playoffs…..

Like I said, if a split occurs and my school is demoted, I'll be done with college football. I'll focus on watching the NFL and you guys can do want you want with the new peewee FCS league. Play Canada. Play Iran if you want. You could play a world cup and I seriously doubt anyone would care. If your not playing in the top level of football or playing the the best football universities that exist, what makes you think anyone would care? Last year everyone knew Alabama was the best team in the country. Basically, the G-5 will be playing for 65th place. The only place where 65th place matters is the NCAA tournament---and that only matters because its the highest level of college basketball. Theoretically, a 65th place team can win their way to a championship....theoretically.

(08-19-2013 01:17 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Like I said, if a split occurs and my school is demoted, I'll be done with college football. I'll focus on watching the NFL and you guys can do want you want with the new peewee FCS league. You could play a world cup and nobody would care.

I empathize with your feelings.... However, what realistic chance will Houston (or any other G5 school) ever have at actually playing in the future playoffs and crowned the National Champion? The system is already biased towards us. Do you think a restructured NCAA governing body will make things better for the G5? Look at how bad our bowl lineup is so far. Do you think it will improve if the playoffs expand to eight schools as many expect will eventually happen? My point: G5 = DEMOTED! Nevertheless, I'm sure UC, UCONN, USF fans will not stop watching their schools play....

(08-19-2013 01:36 AM)Underdog Wrote:  

(08-19-2013 01:17 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Like I said, if a split occurs and my school is demoted, I'll be done with college football. I'll focus on watching the NFL and you guys can do want you want with the new peewee FCS league. You could play a world cup and nobody would care.

I empathize with your feelings.... However, what realistic chance will Houston (or any other G5 school) ever have at actually playing in the future playoffs and crowned the National Champion? The system is already biased towards us. Do you think a restructured NCAA governing body will make things better for the G5? Look at how bad our bowl lineup is so far. Do you think it will improve if the playoffs expand to eight schools as many expect will eventually happen? My point: G5 = DEMOTED! Nevertheless, I'm sure UC, UCONN, USF fans will not stop watching their schools play....

I'm with Attackcoog. Now that we're finally moving toward a system that will crown a true national champion based on on-the-field performance rather than money or reputation or ratings or tradition, the last thing I want to see is a split that would exclude half of all FBS teams from even competing. Sure the probability of a G5 team winning a title is low, but if the playoff expands to 8, and takes the best 8 teams, and G5 teams are eligible to be considered for playoff berths on the same basis as P5 teams (have to finish in the top 8, no special accommodations), I'll be satisfied.

(08-19-2013 01:36 AM)Underdog Wrote:  

(08-19-2013 01:17 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Like I said, if a split occurs and my school is demoted, I'll be done with college football. I'll focus on watching the NFL and you guys can do want you want with the new peewee FCS league. You could play a world cup and nobody would care.

I empathize with your feelings.... However, what realistic chance will Houston (or any other G5 school) ever have at actually playing in the future playoffs and crowned the National Champion? The system is already biased towards us. Do you think a restructured NCAA governing body will make things better for the G5? Look at how bad our bowl lineup is so far. Do you think it will improve if the playoffs expand to eight schools as many expect will eventually happen? My point: G5 = DEMOTED! Nevertheless, I'm sure UC, UCONN, USF fans will not stop watching their schools play....

I agree with you that the chances a G5 school will win a national championship are extremely low. My preference to stay in the top level of football stems from two basic reasons. Truthfully, the chances are quite low for anyone other than a handful of well known football factories. That said, the chance to win a national championship that matters is only available at the top level of the game. Leave that top level of the game and your chance to win a national championship that matters drops from minuscule to zero.

The second, and most important reason to stay in the top level of football is that anything less would severely damage my schools drawing ability in the city of Houston--which would severely damage it's chances of ever getting a future golden ticket to any P5 conference. The G5 FBS product has to be winning to gain traction in a pro city. I don't think a small time FCS type product has any chance of flying in a pro city--winning or not. While it wont work for my school, I will concede that it might be successful in a handful of areas, but it won't have any real national following.

(08-19-2013 08:22 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(08-19-2013 01:36 AM)Underdog Wrote:  

(08-19-2013 01:17 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Like I said, if a split occurs and my school is demoted, I'll be done with college football. I'll focus on watching the NFL and you guys can do want you want with the new peewee FCS league. You could play a world cup and nobody would care.

I empathize with your feelings.... However, what realistic chance will Houston (or any other G5 school) ever have at actually playing in the future playoffs and crowned the National Champion? The system is already biased towards us. Do you think a restructured NCAA governing body will make things better for the G5? Look at how bad our bowl lineup is so far. Do you think it will improve if the playoffs expand to eight schools as many expect will eventually happen? My point: G5 = DEMOTED! Nevertheless, I'm sure UC, UCONN, USF fans will not stop watching their schools play....

I agree with you that the chances a G5 school will win a national championship are extremely low. My preference to stay in the top level of football stems from two basic reasons. Truthfully, the chances are quite low for anyone other than a handful of well known football factories. That said, the chance to win a national championship that matters is only available at the top level of the game. Leave that top level of the game and your chance to win a national championship that matters drops from minuscule to zero.

The second, and most important reason to stay in the top level of football is that anything less would severely damage my schools drawing ability in the city of Houston--which would severely damage it's chances of ever getting a future golden ticket to any P5 conference. The G5 FBS product has to be winning to gain traction in a pro city. I don't think a small time FCS type product has any chance of flying in a pro city--winning or not. While it wont work for my school, I will concede that it might be successful in a handful of areas, but it won't have any real national following.

The FCS model seems to work in Montana (although their AD recommended FBS), and looked like it was working in Boone, NC. Everywhere else, FCS football may be a thing-the-school-does, but not part of a school's strategic plan.