You've not played Texas in nearly 20 years. Do you exist?

(08-14-2013 01:44 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  You've not played Texas in nearly 20 years. Do you exist?

Why try to change the subject........this discussion is about Arkansas and ASU.

(08-14-2013 01:24 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(08-13-2013 07:46 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Taxes on massive profits? They can put those in the drawer with the taxes they collect from Exxon, Apple and GE. Athletic departments are not independent organizations.

Those companies all pay taxes. They just don't pay as much as other companies of similar profits. The IRS taxes them: Congress gives them tax breaks. It doesn't matter if they are independent organizations. Companies, divisions, and assets of non-profit or tax exempt organizations can still be taxable. The university just doesn't have to pay taxes on their capital gains.

If those schools left and split off, those opposing will demand that they pay taxes (since the only reason to leave would be to take money away from other non-profits, a big no-no in that field). At that point, it would be very hard with a straight face for anyone to really oppose them being taxed, because the entire act is done to improve profit. That makes you for-profit.

Not if they have already made a large publicity campaign about what they expect to spend that money on. Stipends? Getting rid of Academic money being used to fund athletics? Improving all of the facilities, not just those for football? These schools have calculated all these moves and they have very capable lawyers who know the exact law and what they can get away with in terms of all this malarkey about them losing non profit status.

These State sponsored schools are not going to so easily lose that status. It boggles my mind that so many people think it possible, especially you.

(08-14-2013 02:30 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 01:44 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  You've not played Texas in nearly 20 years. Do you exist?

Why try to change the subject........this discussion is about Arkansas and ASU.

Quite relevant.

Arkansas State exists in a state with a population that is about 1/3rd of the DFW metro, yet Arkansas State drew 5,000 more per game than SMU. Our specialized license plates are the third best selling the state (huntin' and fishin' #1 followed by Arkansas then Arkansas State and ASU outsells nearly all other colleges in the state combined). Little Rock TV stations (125 miles from ASU) have carried at least one football game the last two years. The two largest Arkansas owned banks have ASU alums/donors/season ticket holders as either CEO or chairman. Three Little Rock stations bid on the rights to carry the Bryan Harsin Show.

ASU has taken large crowds to the two recent bowl games making a profit on each trip despite being 8 hours from the bowl site.

Whether or not the University of Arkansas acknowledges the existence of Arkansas State is immaterial. Arkansas has set fund-raising records the past two years but so has Arkansas State.

(08-14-2013 01:24 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Those companies all pay taxes. They just don't pay as much as other companies of similar profits. The IRS taxes them: Congress gives them tax breaks. It doesn't matter if they are independent organizations. Companies, divisions, and assets of non-profit or tax exempt organizations can still be taxable. The university just doesn't have to pay taxes on their capital gains.

If those schools left and split off, those opposing will demand that they pay taxes (since the only reason to leave would be to take money away from other non-profits, a big no-no in that field). At that point, it would be very hard with a straight face for anyone to really oppose them being taxed, because the entire act is done to improve profit. That makes you for-profit.

But taxes are levied on profits. Many companies that lose money actually get tax write-offs from the government. GM is sitting on years of tax-free profit because they did so ****** for so many years.

There aren't really that many college athletic departments who turn a profit. And of those that do, I'm sure they could easily find some way to increase expenditures so that they don't show a profit.

So what are you going to tax?

(08-14-2013 03:01 PM)TomThumb Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 01:24 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Those companies all pay taxes. They just don't pay as much as other companies of similar profits. The IRS taxes them: Congress gives them tax breaks. It doesn't matter if they are independent organizations. Companies, divisions, and assets of non-profit or tax exempt organizations can still be taxable. The university just doesn't have to pay taxes on their capital gains.

If those schools left and split off, those opposing will demand that they pay taxes (since the only reason to leave would be to take money away from other non-profits, a big no-no in that field). At that point, it would be very hard with a straight face for anyone to really oppose them being taxed, because the entire act is done to improve profit. That makes you for-profit.

But taxes are levied on profits. Many companies that lose money actually get tax write-offs from the government. GM is sitting on years of tax-free profit because they did so ****** for so many years.

There aren't really that many college athletic departments who turn a profit. And of those that do, I'm sure they could easily find some way to increase expenditures so that they don't show a profit.

So what are you going to tax?

Exactly, it is very irritating to see this ignorance passed on from person to person over the internet because so many people seem to think daddy government is going to stop this and all this tax exempt status talk seems like the best way of that happening.

It is not going to happen folks. The political fallout of removing that status is FAR greater than any possible political fallout of these moves in terms of what some of the "left out" schools will be making noise on.

(08-14-2013 03:11 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 03:01 PM)TomThumb Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 01:24 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Those companies all pay taxes. They just don't pay as much as other companies of similar profits. The IRS taxes them: Congress gives them tax breaks. It doesn't matter if they are independent organizations. Companies, divisions, and assets of non-profit or tax exempt organizations can still be taxable. The university just doesn't have to pay taxes on their capital gains.

If those schools left and split off, those opposing will demand that they pay taxes (since the only reason to leave would be to take money away from other non-profits, a big no-no in that field). At that point, it would be very hard with a straight face for anyone to really oppose them being taxed, because the entire act is done to improve profit. That makes you for-profit.

But taxes are levied on profits. Many companies that lose money actually get tax write-offs from the government. GM is sitting on years of tax-free profit because they did so ****** for so many years.

There aren't really that many college athletic departments who turn a profit. And of those that do, I'm sure they could easily find some way to increase expenditures so that they don't show a profit.

So what are you going to tax?

Exactly, it is very irritating to see this ignorance passed on from person to person over the internet because so many people seem to think daddy government is going to stop this and all this tax exempt status talk seems like the best way of that happening.

It is not going to happen folks. The political fallout of removing that status is FAR greater than any possible political fallout of these moves in terms of what some of the "left out" schools will be making noise on.

Agree 100%.

(08-14-2013 03:01 PM)TomThumb Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 01:24 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Those companies all pay taxes. They just don't pay as much as other companies of similar profits. The IRS taxes them: Congress gives them tax breaks. It doesn't matter if they are independent organizations. Companies, divisions, and assets of non-profit or tax exempt organizations can still be taxable. The university just doesn't have to pay taxes on their capital gains.

If those schools left and split off, those opposing will demand that they pay taxes (since the only reason to leave would be to take money away from other non-profits, a big no-no in that field). At that point, it would be very hard with a straight face for anyone to really oppose them being taxed, because the entire act is done to improve profit. That makes you for-profit.

But taxes are levied on profits. Many companies that lose money actually get tax write-offs from the government. GM is sitting on years of tax-free profit because they did so ****** for so many years.

There aren't really that many college athletic departments who turn a profit. And of those that do, I'm sure they could easily find some way to increase expenditures so that they don't show a profit.

So what are you going to tax?

You are talking about something different. You are talking about how much they are going to pay in tax. If we are asking that, then what I said has already happened: they have lost tax exempt status. Right now, they are tax free so they are free to do accounting as they wish. And profit or loss, they don't pay taxes, so it's irrelevant. Hence the term non-profit. Many of the major athletic departments (i.e. BCS) that show in the red: it is because they count the spending of profits in their budgets and create a "loss." If you earn $30 million in profit (revenue after the expenses to earn it) and give $20 million to the general university fund, spend $10 million on a new soccer stadium, and invest $5 million elsewhere, you have just created a $5 million loss. Sounds good right?

Make them taxable entities, and most of the stuff they "write off" won't fly. Athletic departments "write off" things when they spend the money they have earned after expenses before the end of the fiscal year. Essentially they spend the profit before counting it as profit to avoid a surplus. This way they don't have to return any of it. That is why they show in the red (note not all, some have real problems). But ou try and pull the stuff they do when you are a for profit company, a corporation, or LLC, and your ass will be sitting next to Wesley Snipes.

Taxing the profits of athletic departments is about as smart as taxing the money sailors have left after their first shore leave in six months.

Athletic departments spend every nickle they make and generally ask the school for even more if they can get away with.

There are not and won't be profits to tax.

You want a tax solution, you take away the deductibility of donations. That hits 'em where they live.

(08-14-2013 03:11 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Exactly, it is very irritating to see this ignorance passed on from person to person over the internet because so many people seem to think daddy government is going to stop this and all this tax exempt status talk seems like the best way of that happening.

You should not talk about someone passing "ignorance" around the internet. Non-profits, of which I have worked for, have a LOOOOOOTTTT of leeway when it comes to accounting that taxed companies do not. Not to mention, ignorant one, you should realize that as I said above, when you are looking at "how much profit" they made to tax them, guess what, that means they lost tax exempt status. Further, it is FAR easier to retain a grandfathered in status then to retain a new one. This is why Major League baseball, as the oldest league, has an anti-trust exemption that exceeds even the other leagues. And the other leagues have an anti trust exemption now that would NEVER be levied to a new league or organization of the like (note the NCAA doesn't have one). The NCAA has a grandfathered tax exempt status, despite how much money it now makes. Same as the NFL. Universities leaving the NCAA to form their own sports league so they can make more money: you really think the IRS will sit back and say "whatever, do what you want?" No, they will try to tax them. They may or may not win, unless of course congress tries to stop them, which then means you need a near majority to force the IRS' hand, which then kicks in those senators of states which have schools who were left out and gives them power as they will be in a position to block it.

You should not be calling anyone ignorant

(08-14-2013 02:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 02:30 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 01:44 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  You've not played Texas in nearly 20 years. Do you exist?

Why try to change the subject........this discussion is about Arkansas and ASU.

Quite relevant.

Arkansas State exists in a state with a population that is about 1/3rd of the DFW metro, yet Arkansas State drew 5,000 more per game than SMU. Our specialized license plates are the third best selling the state (huntin' and fishin' #1 followed by Arkansas then Arkansas State and ASU outsells nearly all other colleges in the state combined). Little Rock TV stations (125 miles from ASU) have carried at least one football game the last two years. The two largest Arkansas owned banks have ASU alums/donors/season ticket holders as either CEO or chairman. Three Little Rock stations bid on the rights to carry the Bryan Harsin Show.

ASU has taken large crowds to the two recent bowl games making a profit on each trip despite being 8 hours from the bowl site.

Whether or not the University of Arkansas acknowledges the existence of Arkansas State is immaterial. Arkansas has set fund-raising records the past two years but so has Arkansas State.

Relevant? How? What the heck does SMU have to with what happens in the State of Arkansas?

(08-14-2013 04:56 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 02:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 02:30 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 01:44 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  You've not played Texas in nearly 20 years. Do you exist?

Why try to change the subject........this discussion is about Arkansas and ASU.

Quite relevant.

Arkansas State exists in a state with a population that is about 1/3rd of the DFW metro, yet Arkansas State drew 5,000 more per game than SMU. Our specialized license plates are the third best selling the state (huntin' and fishin' #1 followed by Arkansas then Arkansas State and ASU outsells nearly all other colleges in the state combined). Little Rock TV stations (125 miles from ASU) have carried at least one football game the last two years. The two largest Arkansas owned banks have ASU alums/donors/season ticket holders as either CEO or chairman. Three Little Rock stations bid on the rights to carry the Bryan Harsin Show.

ASU has taken large crowds to the two recent bowl games making a profit on each trip despite being 8 hours from the bowl site.

Whether or not the University of Arkansas acknowledges the existence of Arkansas State is immaterial. Arkansas has set fund-raising records the past two years but so has Arkansas State.

Relevant? How? What the heck does SMU have to with what happens in the State of Arkansas?

Glass houses, stones, and all that jazz

(08-14-2013 04:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:56 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 02:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 02:30 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 01:44 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  You've not played Texas in nearly 20 years. Do you exist?

Why try to change the subject........this discussion is about Arkansas and ASU.

Quite relevant.

Arkansas State exists in a state with a population that is about 1/3rd of the DFW metro, yet Arkansas State drew 5,000 more per game than SMU. Our specialized license plates are the third best selling the state (huntin' and fishin' #1 followed by Arkansas then Arkansas State and ASU outsells nearly all other colleges in the state combined). Little Rock TV stations (125 miles from ASU) have carried at least one football game the last two years. The two largest Arkansas owned banks have ASU alums/donors/season ticket holders as either CEO or chairman. Three Little Rock stations bid on the rights to carry the Bryan Harsin Show.

ASU has taken large crowds to the two recent bowl games making a profit on each trip despite being 8 hours from the bowl site.

Whether or not the University of Arkansas acknowledges the existence of Arkansas State is immaterial. Arkansas has set fund-raising records the past two years but so has Arkansas State.

Relevant? How? What the heck does SMU have to with what happens in the State of Arkansas?

Glass houses, stones, and all that jazz

The first rule of debating.....when losing an argument, change the subject, or attack the opponent.

(08-14-2013 04:46 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  You want a tax solution, you take away the deductibility of donations. That hits 'em where they live.

Yeah, that's a great way to screw over Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. Meanwhile Texas and Ohio State smirk and go on with business.

(08-14-2013 05:05 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:56 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 02:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 02:30 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  Why try to change the subject........this discussion is about Arkansas and ASU.

Quite relevant.

Arkansas State exists in a state with a population that is about 1/3rd of the DFW metro, yet Arkansas State drew 5,000 more per game than SMU. Our specialized license plates are the third best selling the state (huntin' and fishin' #1 followed by Arkansas then Arkansas State and ASU outsells nearly all other colleges in the state combined). Little Rock TV stations (125 miles from ASU) have carried at least one football game the last two years. The two largest Arkansas owned banks have ASU alums/donors/season ticket holders as either CEO or chairman. Three Little Rock stations bid on the rights to carry the Bryan Harsin Show.

ASU has taken large crowds to the two recent bowl games making a profit on each trip despite being 8 hours from the bowl site.

Whether or not the University of Arkansas acknowledges the existence of Arkansas State is immaterial. Arkansas has set fund-raising records the past two years but so has Arkansas State.

Relevant? How? What the heck does SMU have to with what happens in the State of Arkansas?

Glass houses, stones, and all that jazz

The first rule of debating.....when losing an argument, change the subject, or attack the opponent.

Second rule of debating. Don't waste serious effort on someone who doesn't have any idea of what they are speaking of.

(08-14-2013 05:05 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:56 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 02:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 02:30 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  Why try to change the subject........this discussion is about Arkansas and ASU.

Quite relevant.

Arkansas State exists in a state with a population that is about 1/3rd of the DFW metro, yet Arkansas State drew 5,000 more per game than SMU. Our specialized license plates are the third best selling the state (huntin' and fishin' #1 followed by Arkansas then Arkansas State and ASU outsells nearly all other colleges in the state combined). Little Rock TV stations (125 miles from ASU) have carried at least one football game the last two years. The two largest Arkansas owned banks have ASU alums/donors/season ticket holders as either CEO or chairman. Three Little Rock stations bid on the rights to carry the Bryan Harsin Show.

ASU has taken large crowds to the two recent bowl games making a profit on each trip despite being 8 hours from the bowl site.

Whether or not the University of Arkansas acknowledges the existence of Arkansas State is immaterial. Arkansas has set fund-raising records the past two years but so has Arkansas State.

Relevant? How? What the heck does SMU have to with what happens in the State of Arkansas?

Glass houses, stones, and all that jazz

The first rule of debating.....when losing an argument, change the subject, or attack the opponent.

I think he was making the point that perhaps you should look to your own situation in your state and recognize some of the political similarities. I think he was hoping that you could apply some of your own experiences to get a clearer idea of the subject at hand...stAte's situation re: the Razorbacks.

That said, we averaged 26,000 in a town of 76,000 which is a pretty decent percentage. It's not like we have a metroplex of millions to pull from. The Razorbacks are the major force in the state but we have been pretty scrappy. A lot of times they have been able to delay our progress but ultimately not halt it.

(08-14-2013 08:44 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 05:05 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:56 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 02:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Quite relevant.

Arkansas State exists in a state with a population that is about 1/3rd of the DFW metro, yet Arkansas State drew 5,000 more per game than SMU. Our specialized license plates are the third best selling the state (huntin' and fishin' #1 followed by Arkansas then Arkansas State and ASU outsells nearly all other colleges in the state combined). Little Rock TV stations (125 miles from ASU) have carried at least one football game the last two years. The two largest Arkansas owned banks have ASU alums/donors/season ticket holders as either CEO or chairman. Three Little Rock stations bid on the rights to carry the Bryan Harsin Show.

ASU has taken large crowds to the two recent bowl games making a profit on each trip despite being 8 hours from the bowl site.

Whether or not the University of Arkansas acknowledges the existence of Arkansas State is immaterial. Arkansas has set fund-raising records the past two years but so has Arkansas State.

Relevant? How? What the heck does SMU have to with what happens in the State of Arkansas?

Glass houses, stones, and all that jazz

The first rule of debating.....when losing an argument, change the subject, or attack the opponent.

Second rule of debating. Don't waste serious effort on someone who doesn't have any idea of what they are speaking of.

See what I said about changing the subject and attacking the opponent.

(08-14-2013 09:48 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 08:44 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 05:05 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:56 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  Relevant? How? What the heck does SMU have to with what happens in the State of Arkansas?

Glass houses, stones, and all that jazz

The first rule of debating.....when losing an argument, change the subject, or attack the opponent.

Second rule of debating. Don't waste serious effort on someone who doesn't have any idea of what they are speaking of.

See what I said about changing the subject and attacking the opponent.

use of a red herring can work pretty well....

(08-14-2013 09:22 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 05:05 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:56 PM)SMUmustangs Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 02:57 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  Quite relevant.

Arkansas State exists in a state with a population that is about 1/3rd of the DFW metro, yet Arkansas State drew 5,000 more per game than SMU. Our specialized license plates are the third best selling the state (huntin' and fishin' #1 followed by Arkansas then Arkansas State and ASU outsells nearly all other colleges in the state combined). Little Rock TV stations (125 miles from ASU) have carried at least one football game the last two years. The two largest Arkansas owned banks have ASU alums/donors/season ticket holders as either CEO or chairman. Three Little Rock stations bid on the rights to carry the Bryan Harsin Show.

ASU has taken large crowds to the two recent bowl games making a profit on each trip despite being 8 hours from the bowl site.

Whether or not the University of Arkansas acknowledges the existence of Arkansas State is immaterial. Arkansas has set fund-raising records the past two years but so has Arkansas State.

Relevant? How? What the heck does SMU have to with what happens in the State of Arkansas?

Glass houses, stones, and all that jazz

The first rule of debating.....when losing an argument, change the subject, or attack the opponent.

I think he was making the point that perhaps you should look to your own situation in your state and recognize some of the political similarities. I think he was hoping that you could apply some of your own experiences to get a clearer idea of the subject at hand...stAte's situation re: the Razorbacks.

That said, we averaged 26,000 in a town of 76,000 which is a pretty decent percentage. It's not like we have a metroplex of millions to pull from. The Razorbacks are the major force in the state but we have been pretty scrappy. A lot of times they have been able to delay our progress but ultimately not halt it.

If you go back you will see my response was to dback saying political pressure would roll the P5 and he used the state of Arkansas as an example, sayiing Arkansas State had sway to force the issue in Arkansas. My position was that Arkansas State does not have the clout to force UA to do anything.

I have not said anything negative about Arkansas State University nor its athletic programs......

(08-14-2013 05:11 PM)TomThumb Wrote:  

(08-14-2013 04:46 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  You want a tax solution, you take away the deductibility of donations. That hits 'em where they live.

Yeah, that's a great way to screw over Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. Meanwhile Texas and Ohio State smirk and go on with business.

Boston and Cambridge are dying to tax colleges. Every time BU Suffolk Emerson or any college in the high property value Area buy property the city pitches a fit.