They should go ahead and put ga St on that list. There's no way they get 15000 in any two year period.

(08-09-2013 12:08 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  I'm surprised USA fell that far after being well over 15000 in previous seasons.

We didn't. I don't know whats going on.

I don't know why no one believes me when I've posted this in the past but...

There are two sets of numbers.

The publicly available attendance numbers on the NCAA website are from the box scores the schools send in as part of the stats record keeping. Those numbers have absolutely no meaning for FBS purposes. Those numbers could be tickets distributed, turnstile count, or the SID looking out the press box window and writing down the number that looks "about right".

A second set of numbers is submitted in February. It is the certified count and those are the numbers that matter.

Those numbers are:
1. Tickets sold provided those tickets meet minimum pricing (ie. not less than 1/2 the price of the most expensive ticket available to the general public).
2. Students admitted for free if they pay student fee for athletics.
3. Tickets priced less than in #1 but at least 1/3rd the cost of the most expensive ticket) that are actually used.
4. Tickets purchased by a booster club are excluded from the count. One institution entering CUSA this year is currently on attendance probation for another 7 years or so because of an accounting error (or more correctly someone keeping the books in a proper accounting manner). The school had previously counted donations to the booster club like this. Donor gives $100, they treated it as the purchase of $100 in tickets, the tickets were then "donated" to the booster club. One year they marked those down in the books as a donation of $100 and then the booster club purchased the tickets. That made those previously counted tickets not count because they were reflected (accurately) as a donation followed by a booster club purchase. The new person who screwed that up was counseled and they've had no problems since.

Accounting matters. Let's say your cheap ticket is $20 and top ticket is $300. You do a bulk deal with a local business. They spend $2000 for 400 tickets. That's an effective price of $5. None of the 400 count. Restructure it so they receive 200 tickets at $10 and 200 free. If 200 get used you can count 200. Or you write it up as 133 tickets at $15 and 267 comped. You can count the 133 whether or not they are used.

Box score numbers and the certified count don't often match up well. For example several years back the Kansas City Star found that the box score counts for Kansas were nearly double the certified count. One of the Tampa/St. Pete papers found a similar gap at USF around the time they moving up. Nearly 20 years ago Arkansas State had a promotion with a local business to sell super discounted tickets for a big local game. The marketing director who put it together had the fee from the business deposited in the marketing account (more glory!) rather than paid to the Central Box Office. Because of how that was done, just over 16,000 of a crowd of 30,000 was countable.

(08-09-2013 08:45 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  1. Tickets sold provided those tickets meet minimum pricing (ie. not less than 1/2 the price of the most expensive ticket available to the general public).
3. Tickets priced less than in #1 but at least 1/3rd the cost of the most expensive ticket) that are actually used.

So (imagine) if you have 50,000 bodies in the stands, all paid, and say
A. 2000 seats at $100 each
B. 12000 seats at $50 each
C. 10000 seats at $25 each

your NCAA audited attendance is 2000 + 12000 = 14000?

(08-09-2013 09:17 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 08:45 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  1. Tickets sold provided those tickets meet minimum pricing (ie. not less than 1/2 the price of the most expensive ticket available to the general public).
3. Tickets priced less than in #1 but at least 1/3rd the cost of the most expensive ticket) that are actually used.

So (imagine) if you have 50,000 bodies in the stands, all paid, and say
A. 2000 seats at $100 each
B. 12000 seats at $50 each
C. 10000 seats at $25 each

your NCAA audited attendance is 2000 + 12000 = 14000?

In theory yes. More likely the school will tell the NCAA the $100 tickets aren't generally available to the public, they are never sold directly to someone walking up with $100 in hand. For example if you look at most schools with loge, club or such seating, those tickets won't appear on their website. Arkansas State has two sections in the press box that I don't know the price of because they aren't listed any place, I know I can place a call and get put on the wait list for them and find out the price but the NCAA exempts those in counting most expensive ticket.

Thanks for the info, arkstfan... if you posted it before, I had never seen it.

(08-09-2013 09:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 09:17 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 08:45 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  1. Tickets sold provided those tickets meet minimum pricing (ie. not less than 1/2 the price of the most expensive ticket available to the general public).
3. Tickets priced less than in #1 but at least 1/3rd the cost of the most expensive ticket) that are actually used.

So (imagine) if you have 50,000 bodies in the stands, all paid, and say
A. 2000 seats at $100 each
B. 12000 seats at $50 each
C. 10000 seats at $25 each

your NCAA audited attendance is 2000 + 12000 = 14000?

In theory yes. More likely the school will tell the NCAA the $100 tickets aren't generally available to the public, they are never sold directly to someone walking up with $100 in hand. For example if you look at most schools with loge, club or such seating, those tickets won't appear on their website. Arkansas State has two sections in the press box that I don't know the price of because they aren't listed any place, I know I can place a call and get put on the wait list for them and find out the price but the NCAA exempts those in counting most expensive ticket.

So in reality the NCAA would count the B and C tickets for 22000. That's reasonable.

I'm not sure that a real turnstile count wouldn't be a better system. On the other hand, "better" has a variety of meanings depending on what your priorities are.

So most likely, South Alabama just hasn't learned the FBS Attendance Report secret handshake.

(08-09-2013 08:45 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  I don't know why no one believes me when I've posted this in the past but...

There are two sets of numbers.

The publicly available attendance numbers on the NCAA website are from the box scores the schools send in as part of the stats record keeping. Those numbers have absolutely no meaning for FBS purposes. Those numbers could be tickets distributed, turnstile count, or the SID looking out the press box window and writing down the number that looks "about right".

A second set of numbers is submitted in February. It is the certified count and those are the numbers that matter.

Those numbers are:
1. Tickets sold provided those tickets meet minimum pricing (ie. not less than 1/2 the price of the most expensive ticket available to the general public).
2. Students admitted for free if they pay student fee for athletics.
3. Tickets priced less than in #1 but at least 1/3rd the cost of the most expensive ticket) that are actually used.
4. Tickets purchased by a booster club are excluded from the count. One institution entering CUSA this year is currently on attendance probation for another 7 years or so because of an accounting error (or more correctly someone keeping the books in a proper accounting manner). The school had previously counted donations to the booster club like this. Donor gives $100, they treated it as the purchase of $100 in tickets, the tickets were then "donated" to the booster club. One year they marked those down in the books as a donation of $100 and then the booster club purchased the tickets. That made those previously counted tickets not count because they were reflected (accurately) as a donation followed by a booster club purchase. The new person who screwed that up was counseled and they've had no problems since.

Accounting matters. Let's say your cheap ticket is $20 and top ticket is $300. You do a bulk deal with a local business. They spend $2000 for 400 tickets. That's an effective price of $5. None of the 400 count. Restructure it so they receive 200 tickets at $10 and 200 free. If 200 get used you can count 200. Or you write it up as 133 tickets at $15 and 267 comped. You can count the 133 whether or not they are used.

Box score numbers and the certified count don't often match up well. For example several years back the Kansas City Star found that the box score counts for Kansas were nearly double the certified count. One of the Tampa/St. Pete papers found a similar gap at USF around the time they moving up. Nearly 20 years ago Arkansas State had a promotion with a local business to sell super discounted tickets for a big local game. The marketing director who put it together had the fee from the business deposited in the marketing account (more glory!) rather than paid to the Central Box Office. Because of how that was done, just over 16,000 of a crowd of 30,000 was countable.

I think people believe you. They also happen to believe that gaming the system like that is bull$h!t.

(08-09-2013 09:54 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  I think people believe you. They also happen to believe that gaming the system like that is bull$h!t.

There's also the case to be made that gaming the numbers NCAA-style is preferable to flat-out making them up, which is an acceptable method for box-score attendance.

(08-09-2013 09:49 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 09:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 09:17 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 08:45 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  1. Tickets sold provided those tickets meet minimum pricing (ie. not less than 1/2 the price of the most expensive ticket available to the general public).
3. Tickets priced less than in #1 but at least 1/3rd the cost of the most expensive ticket) that are actually used.

So (imagine) if you have 50,000 bodies in the stands, all paid, and say
A. 2000 seats at $100 each
B. 12000 seats at $50 each
C. 10000 seats at $25 each

your NCAA audited attendance is 2000 + 12000 = 14000?

In theory yes. More likely the school will tell the NCAA the $100 tickets aren't generally available to the public, they are never sold directly to someone walking up with $100 in hand. For example if you look at most schools with loge, club or such seating, those tickets won't appear on their website. Arkansas State has two sections in the press box that I don't know the price of because they aren't listed any place, I know I can place a call and get put on the wait list for them and find out the price but the NCAA exempts those in counting most expensive ticket.

So in reality the NCAA would count the B and C tickets for 22000. That's reasonable.

I'm not sure that a real turnstile count wouldn't be a better system. On the other hand, "better" has a variety of meanings depending on what your priorities are.

So most likely, South Alabama just hasn't learned the FBS Attendance Report secret handshake.

The school has the option to use either paid attendance or actual attendance. However, it is almost always the higher number (and allows for a good deal of fudging) to use the paid number. For a school that is under the scrutiny of an FCS to FBS move, it's probably just better to use the paid number.

To do actual attendance, a school must either count all the collected ticket stubs, have personnel monitor and verify all the turnstiles, or have a verified manual count by the staff at a gate.

And if tickets are sold at less than 1/3 the highest price they can be counted towards paid admission, but they MUST be used for actual admission (where the stub is actually collected). Any tickets sold at or above the 1/3 price can be counted as paid admission, regardless of their actual use.

(08-08-2013 06:05 PM)wildthing202 Wrote:  Wait, they actually enforce that rule? Don't let them find out about the other teams in the MAC that have similar issues.

You mean like Eastern Michigan with a 3000 average?

I bet EMU has never turned in a sub-15,000 report.

I can see the validity of a number of arguments.

If you have 15,000 per game who are willing to pay $10 to $5 and your top ticket is $10 and you net $120,000 per game how are you more deserving than a school that charges $20 per ticket, averages 10,000 per game and grosses $200,000 per game? Shoot if you sell one $250,000 ticket per game and everyone else gets in free how is that worse than the first example?

The NCAA has struggled with those scenarios, thus creating a system easy to game if you are willing to put your signature on the form.

(08-09-2013 09:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 09:17 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 08:45 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  1. Tickets sold provided those tickets meet minimum pricing (ie. not less than 1/2 the price of the most expensive ticket available to the general public).
3. Tickets priced less than in #1 but at least 1/3rd the cost of the most expensive ticket) that are actually used.

So (imagine) if you have 50,000 bodies in the stands, all paid, and say
A. 2000 seats at $100 each
B. 12000 seats at $50 each
C. 10000 seats at $25 each

your NCAA audited attendance is 2000 + 12000 = 14000?

In theory yes. More likely the school will tell the NCAA the $100 tickets aren't generally available to the public, they are never sold directly to someone walking up with $100 in hand. For example if you look at most schools with loge, club or such seating, those tickets won't appear on their website. Arkansas State has two sections in the press box that I don't know the price of because they aren't listed any place, I know I can place a call and get put on the wait list for them and find out the price but the NCAA exempts those in counting most expensive ticket.

If all those fans showed up, it doesn't matter what price they paid. The trick is about tickets that were sold, but not used. I bet that's how EMU and others get around the requirement, but as I said, it's a joke that it isn't enforced.

(08-09-2013 12:45 PM)CommuterBob Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 09:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 09:17 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 08:45 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  1. Tickets sold provided those tickets meet minimum pricing (ie. not less than 1/2 the price of the most expensive ticket available to the general public).
3. Tickets priced less than in #1 but at least 1/3rd the cost of the most expensive ticket) that are actually used.

So (imagine) if you have 50,000 bodies in the stands, all paid, and say
A. 2000 seats at $100 each
B. 12000 seats at $50 each
C. 10000 seats at $25 each

your NCAA audited attendance is 2000 + 12000 = 14000?

In theory yes. More likely the school will tell the NCAA the $100 tickets aren't generally available to the public, they are never sold directly to someone walking up with $100 in hand. For example if you look at most schools with loge, club or such seating, those tickets won't appear on their website. Arkansas State has two sections in the press box that I don't know the price of because they aren't listed any place, I know I can place a call and get put on the wait list for them and find out the price but the NCAA exempts those in counting most expensive ticket.

If all those fans showed up, it doesn't matter what price they paid. The trick is about tickets that were sold, but not used. I bet that's how EMU and others get around the requirement, but as I said, it's a joke that it isn't enforced.

The rules are enforced, just not to your liking because there are accounting tricks that stay within the framework of the rules.

I don't understand why they don't have a minimum seating requirement of say 25,000 instead of the stupid attendance rule.

25,000 seats is a lot easier to enforce and all but a few programs in FBS already met the requirement.

The 4 corner Ohio MAC schools are slightly under 25,000 as well as Idaho but I can't think of any others.

Since they are now requiring an invite to an FBS conference that right there ensues a measure of quality control, IMO. Having an accounting staff to count paid tickets is a waste of time.

(08-08-2013 07:00 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  

(08-08-2013 05:40 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Massachusetts and South Alabama were approved but must meet minimum football attendance requirements this season, while Texas State moves into the FBS with no restrictions.

Both UMass and South Alabama failed to satisfy the actual or paid 15,000 attendance requirement over a rolling two-year period for FBS schools. Their move to the FBS will be contingent upon having 15,000 in actual average attendance in the 2013 football season. If the requirement is not met, the schools will receive a notice of noncompliance and enter a 10-year probationary period.


http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/publ...nces+added

What about the rest of the MAC? I've seen their games on T.V., and I don't think many of those games have 15,000 in the stands.

If you're seeing those on TV that means you're seeing late night mid week November games... Our worst attended games.

(08-08-2013 08:36 PM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  This is why the bigger conferences want a new division. Teams that have moved to FBS since the turn of the century.

Charlotte Est. 2013 FBS in 2015
Florida Atlantic Est. 2001 FBS in 2005
Florida International Est. 2002 FBS in 2005
Georgia State Est. 2010 FBS in 2013
South Alabama Est. 2009 FBS in 2012
South Florida Est. 1997 FBS in 2001
UTSA Est. 2011 FBS in 2012

Appalachian State FBS in 2014
Georgia Southern FBS in 2014
Massachusetts FBS in 2012
Middle Tennessee FBS in 2000
Old Dominion FBS in 2014
Western Kentucky FBS in 2008

Not sure if there are more. How many of these teams are actually deserving? South Florida, UTSA, App State, Georgia Southern, MTSU, and Western Kentucky.

Big teams want a new Division because of the people voting against stipends and full cost of attendance. That is a list of teams *NOT* in fbs.

(08-09-2013 10:20 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  

(08-08-2013 06:05 PM)wildthing202 Wrote:  Wait, they actually enforce that rule? Don't let them find out about the other teams in the MAC that have similar issues.

You mean like Eastern Michigan with a 3000 average?

EMU averages 3000? When I go to the games it looks like 1500...

(08-09-2013 09:49 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 09:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 09:17 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-09-2013 08:45 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  1. Tickets sold provided those tickets meet minimum pricing (ie. not less than 1/2 the price of the most expensive ticket available to the general public).
3. Tickets priced less than in #1 but at least 1/3rd the cost of the most expensive ticket) that are actually used.

So (imagine) if you have 50,000 bodies in the stands, all paid, and say
A. 2000 seats at $100 each
B. 12000 seats at $50 each
C. 10000 seats at $25 each

your NCAA audited attendance is 2000 + 12000 = 14000?

In theory yes. More likely the school will tell the NCAA the $100 tickets aren't generally available to the public, they are never sold directly to someone walking up with $100 in hand. For example if you look at most schools with loge, club or such seating, those tickets won't appear on their website. Arkansas State has two sections in the press box that I don't know the price of because they aren't listed any place, I know I can place a call and get put on the wait list for them and find out the price but the NCAA exempts those in counting most expensive ticket.

So in reality the NCAA would count the B and C tickets for 22000. That's reasonable.

I'm not sure that a real turnstile count wouldn't be a better system. On the other hand, "better" has a variety of meanings depending on what your priorities are.

So most likely, South Alabama just hasn't learned the FBS Attendance Report secret handshake.

USA probably just had some deeply discounted tickets distributed through a grocery store or newspaper or group of companies.

They actually tried to make the 15k a turnstile count but got a lot of pushback and gave in and allowed tickets sold.

EMU per NCAA website attendance:
2012 3,923
2011 4,267
2010 15,885
2009 5,016
2008 18,951
2007 7,448
2006 15,787
2005 5,219
2004 14,387
2003 11,258
2002 10,777