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JRsec Offline
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For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
I would like for fans of the top 3 P5 conferences to discuss the changes they would like to see the NCAA make. So here are just a few questions around which to discuss this matter. Feel free to interject issues you feel would be important to the establishment of the upper tier.:

1. How many teams do you feel need to be in the upper tier?

2. Should teams that don't offer full tuition stipends be included in the upper tier?

3. How do you feel about Delany's four proposals?

4. If and when there is an upper tier how should it be composed? How many conferences? How many teams per conference? And finally how would you like to see the playoffs structured and why?
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2013 11:21 PM by JRsec.)
07-27-2013 10:22 AM
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hawghiggs Offline
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
1.Roster limits moved to 100. But true freshmen must redshirt.
07-27-2013 01:18 PM
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
1. How many teams do you feel need to be in the upper tier?

The current P5. I mean...whats the point of including the MAC, SBC or American? TV has already told us how little it cares about the G5 so why should we?

2. Should teams that don't offer full tuition stipends be included in the upper tier?

Obviously not

3. How do you feel about Delany's four proposals?


Meh

4. If and when there is an upper tier how should it be composed? How many conferences? How many teams per conference? And finally would you like to see the playoffs structured and why?

Only limit is that 12 teams minimum so every champion will have won a CCG but the reward is you get an auto bid to the playoff.

8 team playoff, 5 champs +3 AL
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2013 04:23 PM by 10thMountain.)
07-27-2013 04:23 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
(07-27-2013 10:22 AM)JRsec Wrote:  I would like for fans of the top 3 P5 conferences to discuss the changes they would like to see the NCAA make. So here are just a few questions around which to discuss this matter. Feel free to interject issues you feel would be important to the establishment of the upper tier.:

1. How many teams do you feel need to be in the upper tier?
85
Quote:2. Should teams that don't offer full tuition stipends be included in the upper tier?
I personally think that stipends should be predicated on whether or not the sport you participate in precludes you from working a job while in school

Quote:3. How do you feel about Delany's four proposals?
They aren't proposals so much a means to gage public reaction

Quote:4. If and when there is an upper tier how should it be composed? How many conferences? How many teams per conference? And finally would you like to see the playoffs structured and why?

Keep the current system and allow schools to be weeded out thru attrition. Make to price of entry too expensive to remain (stipends to all athletics) and create a disadvantage playoff system (8 team, 3 sports for G5 which makes them have to cannibalize each other to get to 3 conferences or create non-revenue generating inter-conference championship games. )
07-27-2013 08:28 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
1. How many teams do you feel need to be in the upper tier?

I'd be comfortable with as few as sixty, less comfortable with as many as 80, and ideally pleased with 72.

2. Do teams that don't offer full tuition stipends need to be included in the upper tier?

No

3. How do you feel about Delany's four proposals?

While I agree they were issued to gauge public reaction, I felt that they were all appropriate for an upper tier. I felt that proposal number 3 permitting academic allowances for admissions for athletes who have been academically challenged will have the greatest impact upon schools not in the upper tier in that it will rob them of some of the great athletes who could not qualify for BCS schools. I also think this proposal would do more to close the player talent gap that has developed between the SEC / ACC and the Big 10 and PAC.

4. If there is an upper tier how should it be composed? How many conferences? How many teams per conference? And finally how would you like to see the playoffs structured and why?

I would be comfortable with 3 conferences of 20, 4 conferences of 18, or 4 conferences of 16. And if we wind up with 4 conferences I would like to see an 8 team playoff in which the champions would be seeded and the second place team from each conference would be seeded and matched in ways so that no conference champion could play their conference mate until the finals. I think this would help to gauge the relative strength at the top of each conference every year.

If we wind up with 3 conferences then the 3 conference champions and one at large wild card seeded and played out.
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2013 11:24 PM by JRsec.)
07-27-2013 11:09 PM
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
(07-27-2013 04:23 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  1. How many teams do you feel need to be in the upper tier?

The current P5. I mean...whats the point of including the MAC, SBC or American? TV has already told us how little it cares about the G5 so why should we?

2. Should teams that don't offer full tuition stipends be included in the upper tier?

Obviously not

3. How do you feel about Delany's four proposals?


Meh

4. If and when there is an upper tier how should it be composed? How many conferences? How many teams per conference? And finally would you like to see the playoffs structured and why?

Only limit is that 12 teams minimum so every champion will have won a CCG but the reward is you get an auto bid to the playoff.

8 team playoff, 5 champs +3 AL
I totally agree with your #4 response. Gotta get it to eight. 04-cheers
07-28-2013 12:52 PM
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bigblueblindness Offline
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
1. 64 is such a clean number for scheduling and playoffs, especially in a 4x16 conference format. That would be an awfully strong number to trim to, though. There would be some very quality schools, including at least one current P5 school, that would have to drop down to attain 64. That would be a tough situation unless someone voluntarily dropped.

2. Not only do I think such a division should include schools that can/will pay full tuition stipends for athletes, I also believe it should be offered to all of their other full scholarship students who must work after school on behalf of the university's interests. I know most schools do this already to various extents, but it should be uniform as part of the association. That will tell who is truly in this for school advancement and who just wants to get on ESPN and prove they can fill up their 50,000 seat stadium if only the SEC and Big 12 teams all traveled to their stadium for every home game... (I'll be nice and not name any names)

3. I really like Delany's proposal for instituting what amounts to an academic red-shirt for incoming freshman who would not qualify for athletics otherwise, but it should not exceed the minimal qualifications that they would place upon any regular incoming freshman with similar circumstances. I wouldn't even really have a problem with a student agreeing to a conditional scholarship that allows them to work out/train with the team while they attend a nearby community college or other leveling class institution to get qualified for their sophomore season at the school.

4. Ideally, I'd love to go back to the days of 10 team conferences where everyone plays a round robin schedule, but those days are gone. I really want to see round robin again for a conference, and that could happen with 12 team conferences. Maybe it will come full circle after a few decades of tinkering.
(This post was last modified: 07-29-2013 12:25 AM by bigblueblindness.)
07-29-2013 12:23 AM
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USAFMEDIC Offline
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
(07-29-2013 12:23 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  1. 64 is such a clean number for scheduling and playoffs, especially in a 4x16 conference format. That would be an awfully strong number to trim to, though. There would be some very quality schools, including at least one current P5 school, that would have to drop down to attain 64. That would be a tough situation unless someone voluntarily dropped.

2. Not only do I think such a division should include schools that can/will pay full tuition stipends for athletes, I also believe it should be offered to all of their other full scholarship students who must work after school on behalf of the university's interests. I know most schools do this already to various extents, but it should be uniform as part of the association. That will tell who is truly in this for school advancement and who just wants to get on ESPN and prove they can fill up their 50,000 seat stadium if only the SEC and Big 12 teams all traveled to their stadium for every home game... (I'll be nice and not name any names)

3. I really like Delany's proposal for instituting what amounts to an academic red-shirt for incoming freshman who would not qualify for athletics otherwise, but it should not exceed the minimal qualifications that they would place upon any regular incoming freshman with similar circumstances. I wouldn't even really have a problem with a student agreeing to a conditional scholarship that allows them to work out/train with the team while they attend a nearby community college or other leveling class institution to get qualified for their sophomore season at the school.

4. Ideally, I'd love to go back to the days of 10 team conferences where everyone plays a round robin schedule, but those days are gone. I really want to see round robin again for a conference, and that could happen with 12 team conferences. Maybe it will come full circle after a few decades of tinkering.

How in the world does the small schools ever stand a chance of recruiting against the big guys with the stipend allowance? If you want to separate the big guys from the little guys, this will do it.
07-29-2013 02:26 AM
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
100 scholarships per team

Players stipends

"New" Division 1 should be Power 5, ND, BYU, and MWC and AAC. So 90 schools
(This post was last modified: 07-29-2013 10:30 AM by Gamecock.)
07-29-2013 10:26 AM
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bigblueblindness Offline
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
(07-29-2013 02:26 AM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  
(07-29-2013 12:23 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  1. 64 is such a clean number for scheduling and playoffs, especially in a 4x16 conference format. That would be an awfully strong number to trim to, though. There would be some very quality schools, including at least one current P5 school, that would have to drop down to attain 64. That would be a tough situation unless someone voluntarily dropped.

2. Not only do I think such a division should include schools that can/will pay full tuition stipends for athletes, I also believe it should be offered to all of their other full scholarship students who must work after school on behalf of the university's interests. I know most schools do this already to various extents, but it should be uniform as part of the association. That will tell who is truly in this for school advancement and who just wants to get on ESPN and prove they can fill up their 50,000 seat stadium if only the SEC and Big 12 teams all traveled to their stadium for every home game... (I'll be nice and not name any names)

3. I really like Delany's proposal for instituting what amounts to an academic red-shirt for incoming freshman who would not qualify for athletics otherwise, but it should not exceed the minimal qualifications that they would place upon any regular incoming freshman with similar circumstances. I wouldn't even really have a problem with a student agreeing to a conditional scholarship that allows them to work out/train with the team while they attend a nearby community college or other leveling class institution to get qualified for their sophomore season at the school.

4. Ideally, I'd love to go back to the days of 10 team conferences where everyone plays a round robin schedule, but those days are gone. I really want to see round robin again for a conference, and that could happen with 12 team conferences. Maybe it will come full circle after a few decades of tinkering.

How in the world does the small schools ever stand a chance of recruiting against the big guys with the stipend allowance? If you want to separate the big guys from the little guys, this will do it.

Medic, I do fall in the camp that believes the big guys should separate from the little guys on this matter. It already happens unofficially; I believe a more formal split will allow all institutions, whether "big" or "little", to pursue the missions and intents of their institutions without pressure to become something they are not or should not be expected to be.
07-29-2013 12:17 PM
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bigblueblindness Offline
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
(07-29-2013 10:26 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  100 scholarships per team

Players stipends

"New" Division 1 should be Power 5, ND, BYU, and MWC and AAC. So 90 schools

Gamecock, I'm for 100 scholarships per football team as soon as they give full scholarships to the lettering athletes in the other sports. For example, the "starting" lineup for men's tennis is the top 6 players, and NCAA rules only allow 4 1/2 scholarships because of the Title IX issues surrounding the huge amount of scholarships offered to football. I know baseball goes through this situation, too.

However, reality would probably be that they would just drop other sports to make up for those extra 15 scholarships going to football.
07-29-2013 12:20 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
(07-29-2013 12:20 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  
(07-29-2013 10:26 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  100 scholarships per team

Players stipends

"New" Division 1 should be Power 5, ND, BYU, and MWC and AAC. So 90 schools

Gamecock, I'm for 100 scholarships per football team as soon as they give full scholarships to the lettering athletes in the other sports. For example, the "starting" lineup for men's tennis is the top 6 players, and NCAA rules only allow 4 1/2 scholarships because of the Title IX issues surrounding the huge amount of scholarships offered to football. I know baseball goes through this situation, too.

However, reality would probably be that they would just drop other sports to make up for those extra 15 scholarships going to football.

Spot on BBB. Baseball, which is loved in the SEC gets 11 1/2 scholarships per team. That's ridiculous.

As far as the separation everyone needs to look at the investment levels into their athletics for the schools being discussed. There are some clear points of demarcation. One of those separation points is around position #71. It's not a huge point of difference but things separate there more clearly than later on. And understand that between the top 50 and position 71 there is a fairly large difference.

The reason I've pushed for 72 with my remarks is because at 72 you've taken in those who could reasonably argue for inclusion leaving the others less legal ground upon which to demand inclusion. At 72 you've created enough of a bottom that the middle of the new division can still sustain 7-5 and 6-6 records. At 64 I don't think that is as possible. So for balance and fan happiness (in the middle) with such a move I think 72 are necessary. I also like the flexibility of 3 divisions of 6 and think that 6 team divisions make for a better core of an annual schedule. At 18 you would play every one in your division and two teams each from the other divisions (on a rotating basis) and you've still played everyone every three years with a 9 game conference schedule. And finally you can balance the strong divisions with the weak with the awarding of the wild card playoff spot for the CCG to the non division champion with the best overall record. The race for the WC spot will keep more fan bases energized late into the season.
07-29-2013 12:41 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
JR,

As long as the number is below 90 and there exists no path for that number to expand, I think all will be fine. I know you've stated that CR is about consolidation and I agree with you, but we have been on this path ever since OK and UGA sued the NCAA.

IMO, the real issue that kick off this round of realignment was after the power conferences created the BCS and let teams like Boise, NIU and TCU play in BCS games that the G5 schools were still not content. The call for more access and more money were constantly growing and the NCAA rules limiting FBS schools were a joke. The 55 schools that the casual fans wants to see and generate the TV dollars simply cannot support a 120+ behemoth.

I always felt the G5 approached realignment incorrectly. They should have been the advocates for closing the door on FBS expansion. After the B12 stabilized at 10 and the BE was gutted via defections, CUSA and the remaining AAC schools should have consolidated and found a way to partner with the MWC on some form inter-conference championship game that provides access to the playoffs.

42 (ACC, SEC, B1G) + 24 (B12,P12) plus two 10 team Mid Level conferences in the MWC and AAC/CUSA gets you to 86. Add in ND and BYU and you have 88 school division for CFB that provides everything all parties need. Access, exposure, body-bag games, marginal winning seasons and most importantly, stability.
07-29-2013 02:33 PM
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
JR is right about the lines of demarcation. Based on total athletic revenue and overall US News and World Report rankings, which about as good an indicator as we can get for this discussion, there is not much of an argument to exclude anyone outside of #61, Mississippi State. Iowa State, Vanderbilt, Pittsburgh, Colorado, Rutgers, and Texas Tech precede Ole Miss on the revenue rankings, at that is the line for schools making at least $55 million. It also is the cutoff line for schools that rank highly on the academic rankings, which, in this case, is #165 nationally or higher. For 61 schools to be the top grossing and that high in national academic ranking is pretty impressive actually. UConn comes in at #47 on that list, by the way... they are getting in.

#62 is where it get tricky. That is UNLV, which is ranked somewhere outside the top 200 national universities. They make $54 million. The next teams, in order, are Oregon State, BYU, Wake Forest, and Washington State, which are the obvious bubble schools, anyway. At #67 is Memphis, which is a similar profile to UNLV; weaker academics, weak football, strong basketball. Below Memphis is Utah (they will rise in revenue once the full PAC money kicks in), South Florida, Ole Miss, SMU, Cincinnati, Temple, SDSU, and then #75 is Penn. Once you get to the Temple/SDSU schools, arguments for inclusion get harder and harder to make. For example team #80 is James Madison, and team #90 is Rice.

If all five of the power conferences are to survive and advance to the upper tier, some concessions may need to be made by one of the conferences, and I think the Big 12 is our huckleberry. In terms of pure athletic credentials and revenue ability, UNLV and Memphis have as much of a case as the usual suspects. The Big 12 may need to consider a "t' shaped conference if they are to survive. Inviting UNLV, BYU, Memphis, and Cincinnati may be needed.
07-29-2013 04:24 PM
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
(07-29-2013 12:20 PM)bigblueblindness Wrote:  
(07-29-2013 10:26 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  100 scholarships per team

Players stipends

"New" Division 1 should be Power 5, ND, BYU, and MWC and AAC. So 90 schools

Gamecock, I'm for 100 scholarships per football team as soon as they give full scholarships to the lettering athletes in the other sports. For example, the "starting" lineup for men's tennis is the top 6 players, and NCAA rules only allow 4 1/2 scholarships because of the Title IX issues surrounding the huge amount of scholarships offered to football. I know baseball goes through this situation, too.

However, reality would probably be that they would just drop other sports to make up for those extra 15 scholarships going to football.

Yeah you're probably right. Such a shame really.

Baseball is a borderline revenue sport for SC and I think its 13.5 schollies for 27 players. Roster cap is 35, meaning 8 walkons.
07-29-2013 05:11 PM
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
Make football excempt from the Title IX scholarship limit! Baseball is a revenue producing sport at LSU, but the scholarship allocation is a joke. In my opinion this would actually increase the number of athletic programs for men AND women. For example, men's soccer and wrestling...both programs that have been eliminated due to Title IX.
07-31-2013 03:26 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
(07-31-2013 03:26 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  Make football excempt from the Title IX scholarship limit! Baseball is a revenue producing sport at LSU, but the scholarship allocation is a joke. In my opinion this would actually increase the number of athletic programs for men AND women. For example, men's soccer and wrestling...both programs that have been eliminated due to Title IX.
That's a really great idea and could probably help justify something like lacrosse for the SEC (or something else like it) if it came to pass.
07-31-2013 04:18 PM
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
1. How many teams do you feel need to be in the upper tier?

I don't much care about any particular number. I would like to see at least one "gatekeeper" conference below the P5 conferences, perhaps two.

2. Should teams that don't offer full tuition stipends be included in the upper tier?

No, inevitably there will need to be some distinctions and this is one of them. Otherwise, what is the point?

3. How do you feel about Delany's four proposals?

They make for nice PR, he comes in after the others and gets to sound like the Commish that cares most about the educational aspects. Would be nice if it all happens but I wont shed a tear if they are talking points that go no where.

4. If and when there is an upper tier how should it be composed? How many conferences? How many teams per conference? And finally how would you like to see the playoffs structured and why?


The most important question you pose. I think Division 1 conferences should end up with 16-20 teams each. Each conference should have to have four divisions that lead to conference tournaments. The National Tournament should be 8 teams. Each power conference should have a guaranteed spot for it's conference champion. If we get it down to four major conferences then that still leaves four positions available to others. So if we get an upset conference champion its not that big of a deal. Everyone loves a Cinderella, including the Networks.
07-31-2013 07:50 PM
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RE: For Big 10, PAC, and SEC Posters: What NCAA Changes would you like?
(07-31-2013 07:50 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  1. How many teams do you feel need to be in the upper tier?

I don't much care about any particular number. I would like to see at least one "gatekeeper" conference below the P5 conferences, perhaps two.

2. Should teams that don't offer full tuition stipends be included in the upper tier?

No, inevitably there will need to be some distinctions and this is one of them. Otherwise, what is the point?

3. How do you feel about Delany's four proposals?

They make for nice PR, he comes in after the others and gets to sound like the Commish that cares most about the educational aspects. Would be nice if it all happens but I wont shed a tear if they are talking points that go no where.

4. If and when there is an upper tier how should it be composed? How many conferences? How many teams per conference? And finally how would you like to see the playoffs structured and why?


The most important question you pose. I think Division 1 conferences should end up with 16-20 teams each. Each conference should have to have four divisions that lead to conference tournaments. The National Tournament should be 8 teams. Each power conference should have a guaranteed spot for it's conference champion. If we get it down to four major conferences then that still leaves four positions available to others. So if we get an upset conference champion its not that big of a deal. Everyone loves a Cinderella, including the Networks.

Spot on...04-rock
08-01-2013 01:47 PM
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