(07-19-2013 09:08 AM)brista21 Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 08:33 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  College football means nothing to NYC. The NFL is 100x stronger. The only college sports teams that move the needle in NYC are UConn & Syracuse BB.

In the 5 boroughs maybe. In NJ, Rutgers "moves the needle". If NJ were its own market it'd be the 4th largest DMA in the nation. Not a bad place to be starting to grow the interest in the brands of Rutgers Athletics and yes the Big Ten.

The two statements above are not in conflict. NYC and New Jersey see themselves as distinct, and that shows up in sports loyalties, especially college sports.

Lately, someone argued that West Virginia's numbers in the Pittsburgh DMA were driven by a couple of WV counties.

In this day and age, how soon will we see this data broken out much more locally? Most people aren't getting their TV over-the-air, so how much does it matter how far you are from one or another TV station transmitter?

Or am I overestimating college sports in the grand scheme of things--political borders don't have nearly the effect on pro sports fandom, and none at all on nonsports programming.

(07-19-2013 09:50 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 09:08 AM)brista21 Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 08:33 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  College football means nothing to NYC. The NFL is 100x stronger. The only college sports teams that move the needle in NYC are UConn & Syracuse BB.

In the 5 boroughs maybe. In NJ, Rutgers "moves the needle". If NJ were its own market it'd be the 4th largest DMA in the nation. Not a bad place to be starting to grow the interest in the brands of Rutgers Athletics and yes the Big Ten.

The two statements above are not in conflict. NYC and New Jersey see themselves as distinct, and that shows up in sports loyalties, especially college sports.

Lately, someone argued that West Virginia's numbers in the Pittsburgh DMA were driven by a couple of WV counties.

In this day and age, how soon will we see this data broken out much more locally? Most people aren't getting their TV over-the-air, so how much does it matter how far you are from one or another TV station transmitter?

Or am I overestimating college sports in the grand scheme of things--political borders don't have nearly the effect on pro sports fandom, and none at all on nonsports programming.

The data is already there - it just isn't made public since it's considered to be extremely valuable information (and lots of entities are willing to pay a lot for it). Companies and political organizations, via Internet tracking, information that you volunteer online (i.e. what you "like" on Facebook), cable and satellite viewing habits (which companies like Comcast and DirecTV have access to beyond what Nielsen provides), Netflix streaming choices and, maybe most importantly, credit card transaction records, are able to track trends at the zip code, neighborhood and even street levels. You can already see it online with targeted ads - it's not much of a leap that TV advertising will end up the same way (if only because TV programs are increasingly delivered via the Internet).

Now, as it applies to sports more broadly, there's probably too much variety across the country to apply a general rule. In your example, the NYC market in particular makes very clear subdivisions within itself: Manhattan, the other boroughs, New Jersey, Connecticut, Westchester, etc. So, that's where Rutgers taking a portion of the NYC DMA but not the rest of it comes into play. However, there are places where the opposite is the case. Ohio, for instance, is entirely Ohio State Buckeyes territory and they have a broader geographic base of support than the state's NFL teams (the Browns and Bengals).

Non-sports programming actually does have some geographic trends, although they tend to be more cultural and class-based (which have a tangential relationship to geography). Wealthy people that live in Manhattan tend to watch the same TV shows as wealthy people that live in Beverly Hills and the North Side of Chicago. Likewise, blue collar workers that live in Queens, Long Beach and the South Side of Chicago tend to watch a different set of TV shows. Most people generally live around other people with similar incomes and educational levels, so that shows up with certain towns/neighborhoods watching the same types of programs.

(07-19-2013 10:17 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 09:50 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 09:08 AM)brista21 Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 08:33 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  College football means nothing to NYC. The NFL is 100x stronger. The only college sports teams that move the needle in NYC are UConn & Syracuse BB.

In the 5 boroughs maybe. In NJ, Rutgers "moves the needle". If NJ were its own market it'd be the 4th largest DMA in the nation. Not a bad place to be starting to grow the interest in the brands of Rutgers Athletics and yes the Big Ten.

The two statements above are not in conflict. NYC and New Jersey see themselves as distinct, and that shows up in sports loyalties, especially college sports.

Lately, someone argued that West Virginia's numbers in the Pittsburgh DMA were driven by a couple of WV counties.

In this day and age, how soon will we see this data broken out much more locally? Most people aren't getting their TV over-the-air, so how much does it matter how far you are from one or another TV station transmitter?

Or am I overestimating college sports in the grand scheme of things--political borders don't have nearly the effect on pro sports fandom, and none at all on nonsports programming.

The data is already there - it just isn't made public since it's considered to be extremely valuable information (and lots of entities are willing to pay a lot for it). [/quote[

True.

Quote:Companies and political organizations, via Internet tracking, information that you volunteer online (i.e. what you "like" on Facebook), cable and satellite viewing habits (which companies like Comcast and DirecTV have access to beyond what Nielsen provides), Netflix streaming choices and, maybe most importantly, credit card transaction records, are able to track trends at the zip code, neighborhood and even street levels. You can already see it online with targeted ads - it's not much of a leap that TV advertising will end up the same way (if only because TV programs are increasingly delivered via the Internet).

Now, as it applies to sports more broadly, there's probably too much variety across the country to apply a general rule. In your example, the NYC market in particular makes very clear subdivisions within itself: Manhattan, the other boroughs, New Jersey, Connecticut, Westchester, etc. So, that's where Rutgers taking a portion of the NYC DMA but not the rest of it comes into play. However, there are places where the opposite is the case. Ohio, for instance, is entirely Ohio State Buckeyes territory and they have a broader geographic base of support than the state's NFL teams (the Browns and Bengals).

Non-sports programming actually does have some geographic trends, although they tend to be more cultural and class-based (which have a tangential relationship to geography). Wealthy people that live in Manhattan tend to watch the same TV shows as wealthy people that live in Beverly Hills and the North Side of Chicago.Likewise, blue collar workers that live in Queens, Long Beach and the South Side of Chicago tend to watch a different set of TV shows. Most people generally live around other people with similar incomes and educational levels, so that shows up with certain towns/neighborhoods watching the same types of programs.

But that won't show up as bright colors on a map--Greenpoint and Williamsburg (two Brooklyn neighborhoods) will fade into each other, and into Long Island City (Queens neighborhood adjacent to Greenpoint.)

College sports is probably the only place that data will show up geographically in a big way, and even there, state borders probably tell you what you need to know.

This is an interesting discussion.

BTW, I am the one who argued WV's counties were the only ones moving the WVU needle in PGH and I am certain I'm right. If I weren't, that would show up by way of radio talk show discussion, television news features, newspaper features, etc.

Well, there is ZERO radio talk show discussion of WVU sports and limited television and NP features (once in a blue moon type stuff). What does that tell you about those media entities' research with regard to interest levels in this area?

Again, I want to make it clear that this is not rah-rah rivalry BS. It's a serious observation. Within the boundaries of West Virginia the Mountaineers are EVERYTHING to those people. That's why the Dude of WV's fairy tales took off in the first place - because big time college athletics is literally all they have and they were terrified of being left behind and the rumors gave them some hope.

However, PA and WV are EXTREMELY different culturally and as soon as you cross the borders of one state into the other those differences show up in a big way. They also show up in sports.

For example, in another life, I lived and worked in West Virginia for about two and a half years. The town that I lived in is called Nutter Fort, which is approximately two hours due south of Pittsburgh. Two hours!

Even though I was just two hours away, I felt like I may as well have been living in Arkansas. The cultures were just so radically different from each other and the mores and attitudes towards everything were so radically different that it really caught me by surprise.

Just a totally different world.

With that in mind, I really have come to believe that there are two distinctly different Americas culturally. Based on my experiences, I absolutely do buy into the whole red state vs. blue state divide and believe that it shows not only our political differences but also our attitudes towards media consumption, entertainment interests and even sports fandom. That would make a helluva book, IMHO.

If you want to know which states are the most passionate about college football versus those that are the most passionate pro areas, and politically conservative versus liberal, and Fox News watchers versus everyone else, and religiously zealous or homogenous or diverse or what have you - just look at an election map during any given presidential election and it will tell you everything you need to know.

It may not necessarily be 100 percent but it sure correlates on a high percentage of states, IMHO.

(07-19-2013 11:46 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  This is an interesting discussion.

BTW, I am the one who argued WV's counties were the only ones moving the WVU needle in PGH and I am certain I'm right. If I weren't that would show up by way of radio talk show discussion, television news features, newspaper features, etc.

Well, there is ZERO radio talk show discussion of WVU sports and limited television and NP features (once in a blue moon type stuff). What does that tell you about those media entities' research with regard to interest levels in this area?

Again, I want to make it cler that within the boundaries of West Virginia the Mountaineers are EVERYTHING to those people. That's why the Dude of WV's fairy tales took off in the first place - because big time college athletics is literally all they have and they were terrified of being left behind and the rumors gave them some hope.

However, PA and WV are EXTREMELY different culturally and as soon as you cross the borders of one state into the other those differences show up in a big way. They also show up in sports.

For example, in another life, I lived and worked in West Virginia for about two and a half years. The town that I lived in is called Nutter Fort, which is approximately two hours due south of Pittsburgh. Two hours!

Even though I was just two hours away, I felt like I may as well have been living in Arkansas. The cultures were just so radically different from each other and the mores and attitudes towards everything were so radically different that it really caught me by surprise.

Just a totally different world.

With that in mind, I really have come to believe that there are two distinctly different Americas culturally. Based on my experiences, I absolutely do buy into the whole red state vs. blue state divide and believe that it shows not only our political differences but also our attitudes towards media consumption, entertainment interests and even sports fandom.

If you want to know which states are the most passionate about college football versus those that are the most passionate pro areas, and politically conservative versus liberal, and Fox News watchers versus everyone else, and religiously zealous or homogenous or diverse or what have you, just look at an election map during any given presidential election and it will tell you everything you need to know.

haters are gonna hate

Root Sports covers WVU sports-for those who don't know, Root Sports used to be the local Fox Regional Sports cable channel that served the Pittsburgh area

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette covers WVU sports-take a look at their website

The Pittsburgh Tribune covers WVU sports

WPXI.com has both WVU and Pitt lumped together under college sports

WTAE.com does the same thing

KDKA.com-has a section on their website for WVU

(07-19-2013 11:46 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  This is an interesting discussion.

BTW, I am the one who argued WV's counties were the only ones moving the WVU needle in PGH and I am certain I'm right. If I weren't, that would show up by way of radio talk show discussion, television news features, newspaper features, etc.

Well, there is ZERO radio talk show discussion of WVU sports and limited television and NP features (once in a blue moon type stuff). What does that tell you about those media entities' research with regard to interest levels in this area?

Again, I want to make it clear that this is not rah-rah rivalry BS. It's a serious observation. Within the boundaries of West Virginia the Mountaineers are EVERYTHING to those people. That's why the Dude of WV's fairy tales took off in the first place - because big time college athletics is literally all they have and they were terrified of being left behind and the rumors gave them some hope.

However, PA and WV are EXTREMELY different culturally and as soon as you cross the borders of one state into the other those differences show up in a big way. They also show up in sports.

For example, in another life, I lived and worked in West Virginia for about two and a half years. The town that I lived in is called Nutter Fort, which is approximately two hours due south of Pittsburgh. Two hours!

Even though I was just two hours away, I felt like I may as well have been living in Arkansas. The cultures were just so radically different from each other and the mores and attitudes towards everything were so radically different that it really caught me by surprise.

Just a totally different world.

With that in mind, I really have come to believe that there are two distinctly different Americas culturally. Based on my experiences, I absolutely do buy into the whole red state vs. blue state divide and believe that it shows not only our political differences but also our attitudes towards media consumption, entertainment interests and even sports fandom. That would make a helluva book, IMHO.

If you want to know which states are the most passionate about college football versus those that are the most passionate pro areas, and politically conservative versus liberal, and Fox News watchers versus everyone else, and religiously zealous or homogenous or diverse or what have you - just look at an election map during any given presidential election and it will tell you everything you need to know.

As you discuss this, you might remember that a wanna be geographer did a piss-poor study of this that appeared in the media. He set up study where people at colleges could self report who they pulled for and pegged that to georaphic areas based on a number of flawed assertions. Among his results that I recall were that Arkansas State was more popular than most Divison 1 teams, that East Carolina was more popular than UNC in eastern North Carolina and that Rutgers was hugely more popular in NYC than ND, Penn State, or Syracuse. What he had done was dump all the colleges into a specific geography so when for example 210 Rutgers students voted, all their votes went into NYC, etc., etc. Only some colleges actually voted and there were no statistical controls.

On top of this a moron reporter took these bad results, masseged them and announced that Rutgers was the most popular team in the nation based on it's supposed popularity in NYC.

Watch out for extremely flawed data on this topic.

(07-19-2013 11:58 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 11:46 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  This is an interesting discussion.

BTW, I am the one who argued WV's counties were the only ones moving the WVU needle in PGH and I am certain I'm right. If I weren't, that would show up by way of radio talk show discussion, television news features, newspaper features, etc.

Well, there is ZERO radio talk show discussion of WVU sports and limited television and NP features (once in a blue moon type stuff). What does that tell you about those media entities' research with regard to interest levels in this area?

Again, I want to make it clear that this is not rah-rah rivalry BS. It's a serious observation. Within the boundaries of West Virginia the Mountaineers are EVERYTHING to those people. That's why the Dude of WV's fairy tales took off in the first place - because big time college athletics is literally all they have and they were terrified of being left behind and the rumors gave them some hope.

However, PA and WV are EXTREMELY different culturally and as soon as you cross the borders of one state into the other those differences show up in a big way. They also show up in sports.

For example, in another life, I lived and worked in West Virginia for about two and a half years. The town that I lived in is called Nutter Fort, which is approximately two hours due south of Pittsburgh. Two hours!

Even though I was just two hours away, I felt like I may as well have been living in Arkansas. The cultures were just so radically different from each other and the mores and attitudes towards everything were so radically different that it really caught me by surprise.

Just a totally different world.

With that in mind, I really have come to believe that there are two distinctly different Americas culturally. Based on my experiences, I absolutely do buy into the whole red state vs. blue state divide and believe that it shows not only our political differences but also our attitudes towards media consumption, entertainment interests and even sports fandom. That would make a helluva book, IMHO.

If you want to know which states are the most passionate about college football versus those that are the most passionate pro areas, and politically conservative versus liberal, and Fox News watchers versus everyone else, and religiously zealous or homogenous or diverse or what have you - just look at an election map during any given presidential election and it will tell you everything you need to know.

As you discuss this, you might remember that a wanna be geographer did a piss-poor study of this that appeared in the media. He set up study where people at colleges could self report who they pulled for and pegged that to georaphic areas based on a number of flawed assertions. Among his results that I recall were that Arkansas State was more popular than most Divison 1 teams, that East Carolina was more popular than UNC in eastern North Carolina and that Rutgers was hugely more popular in NYC than ND, Penn State, or Syracuse. What he had done was dump all the colleges into a specific geography so when for example 210 Rutgers students voted, all their votes went into NYC, etc., etc. Only some colleges actually voted and there were no statistical controls.

On top of this a moron reporter took these bad results, masseged them and announced that Rutgers was the most popular team in the nation based on it's supposed popularity in NYC.

Watch out for extremely flawed data on this topic.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the window for college football is some 15-18 hours long from Thursday night to Saturday at midnight. No one team can fill 18 hours. The second or third choice in the market will get similar ratings and college football fans tend to watch more than just their team - they like to watch their rivals lose, they like to watch their conference mates play, and they like to watch other "big" games.

So while Ohio State can monopolize the State of Ohio for 4 hours of the 18, that leaves Notre Dame, or Michigan, or Penn State, or Pitt, or Alabama, etc., to fill the other 14 hours.

(07-19-2013 11:46 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  This is an interesting discussion.

BTW, I am the one who argued WV's counties were the only ones moving the WVU needle in PGH and I am certain I'm right.

I find it very believeable. I didn't mean to imply that I didn't. The idea that Mountaineer fandom matches the state borders is pretty credible to me. And if you have say 100,000 West Virginians counted in the 2M Pittsburgh metro area, then you'd expect the numbers to come up "Pittsburgh 5% WVU fans"

Quote:If you want to know which states are the most passionate about college football versus those that are the most passionate pro areas, and politically conservative versus liberal, and Fox News watchers versus everyone else, and religiously zealous or homogenous or diverse or what have you - just look at an election map during any given presidential election and it will tell you everything you need to know.

It may not necessarily be 100 percent but it sure correlates on a high percentage of states, IMHO.

Not sure exactly what it says for college sports, but remember also that, at least in 2000 when those maps first gained wide popularity, the county-by-county maps showed not so much red states and blue states as blue metropolitan islands in a sea of red, except for some belts of high black population in the South. WAshington State, for example, reads as a small blue corner on a vast red field. But the populations balance out.

(07-19-2013 12:14 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Not sure exactly what it says for college sports, but remember also that, at least in 2000 when those maps first gained wide popularity, the county-by-county maps showed not so much red states and blue states as blue metropolitan islands in a sea of red, except for some belts of high black population in the South. WAshington State, for example, reads as a small blue corner on a vast red field. But the populations balance out.

The county-by-county presidential map for 2012 is below.

Of course no smart TV executive is just going to look at where the blue or red is, they look to where the people and TV sets are. Washington state is a good example -- probably 80% of the people in the state live in those blue counties. Most of the western states are similar. In California, there are 23 counties with less than 100,000 people each, and 22 of them are red on that map. L.A. County alone has almost 10 times as many people as all 22 of those counties combined.

FWIW, West Virignia has traditionally always voted Democrat. They only voted for Romney this past election because Obama was so anti-coal.

(07-19-2013 11:46 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  This is an interesting discussion.

BTW, I am the one who argued WV's counties were the only ones moving the WVU needle in PGH and I am certain I'm right. If I weren't, that would show up by way of radio talk show discussion, television news features, newspaper features, etc.

Well, there is ZERO radio talk show discussion of WVU sports and limited television and NP features (once in a blue moon type stuff). What does that tell you about those media entities' research with regard to interest levels in this area?

Again, I want to make it clear that this is not rah-rah rivalry BS. It's a serious observation. Within the boundaries of West Virginia the Mountaineers are EVERYTHING to those people. That's why the Dude of WV's fairy tales took off in the first place - because big time college athletics is literally all they have and they were terrified of being left behind and the rumors gave them some hope.

However, PA and WV are EXTREMELY different culturally and as soon as you cross the borders of one state into the other those differences show up in a big way. They also show up in sports.

For example, in another life, I lived and worked in West Virginia for about two and a half years. The town that I lived in is called Nutter Fort, which is approximately two hours due south of Pittsburgh. Two hours!

Even though I was just two hours away, I felt like I may as well have been living in Arkansas. The cultures were just so radically different from each other and the mores and attitudes towards everything were so radically different that it really caught me by surprise.

Just a totally different world.

With that in mind, I really have come to believe that there are two distinctly different Americas culturally. Based on my experiences, I absolutely do buy into the whole red state vs. blue state divide and believe that it shows not only our political differences but also our attitudes towards media consumption, entertainment interests and even sports fandom. That would make a helluva book, IMHO.

If you want to know which states are the most passionate about college football versus those that are the most passionate pro areas, and politically conservative versus liberal, and Fox News watchers versus everyone else, and religiously zealous or homogenous or diverse or what have you - just look at an election map during any given presidential election and it will tell you everything you need to know.

It may not necessarily be 100 percent but it sure correlates on a high percentage of states, IMHO.

You say the Mountaineers are everything to "those people" like that's a bad thing.
If Pitt had a fanbase as passionate as WVU's they might actually get to go to a bowl outside of Birmingham every once in awhile.
It's shocking that a town the size of Nutter Fort would be so different than the cultural Mecca that is Pittsburgh.
The only thing I can gather from this post is that the values and attitudes in a tiny town the size of Nutter Fort are different than the values and attitudes in Pittsburgh.
Brilliant!

(07-19-2013 12:46 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  FWIW, West Virignia has traditionally always voted Democrat. They only voted for Romney this past election because Obama was so anti-coal.

WV is now a "red" state. It's gone Republican the last four times.

(07-19-2013 11:46 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  This is an interesting discussion.

BTW, I am the one who argued WV's counties were the only ones moving the WVU needle in PGH and I am certain I'm right. If I weren't, that would show up by way of radio talk show discussion, television news features, newspaper features, etc.

Well, there is ZERO radio talk show discussion of WVU sports and limited television and NP features (once in a blue moon type stuff). What does that tell you about those media entities' research with regard to interest levels in this area?

Again, I want to make it clear that this is not rah-rah rivalry BS. It's a serious observation. Within the boundaries of West Virginia the Mountaineers are EVERYTHING to those people. That's why the Dude of WV's fairy tales took off in the first place - because big time college athletics is literally all they have and they were terrified of being left behind and the rumors gave them some hope.

However, PA and WV are EXTREMELY different culturally and as soon as you cross the borders of one state into the other those differences show up in a big way. They also show up in sports.

For example, in another life, I lived and worked in West Virginia for about two and a half years. The town that I lived in is called Nutter Fort, which is approximately two hours due south of Pittsburgh. Two hours!

Even though I was just two hours away, I felt like I may as well have been living in Arkansas. The cultures were just so radically different from each other and the mores and attitudes towards everything were so radically different that it really caught me by surprise.

Just a totally different world.

With that in mind, I really have come to believe that there are two distinctly different Americas culturally. Based on my experiences, I absolutely do buy into the whole red state vs. blue state divide and believe that it shows not only our political differences but also our attitudes towards media consumption, entertainment interests and even sports fandom. That would make a helluva book, IMHO.

If you want to know which states are the most passionate about college football versus those that are the most passionate pro areas, and politically conservative versus liberal, and Fox News watchers versus everyone else, and religiously zealous or homogenous or diverse or what have you - just look at an election map during any given presidential election and it will tell you everything you need to know.

It may not necessarily be 100 percent but it sure correlates on a high percentage of states, IMHO.

Compare that map, the 2004 and 2008 Presidential election maps to the 1860 Presidential election map.

Not much has changed, really. Sectionalism is alive and well. There are two different "countries" in "America".

(07-19-2013 01:04 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 12:46 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  FWIW, West Virignia has traditionally always voted Democrat. They only voted for Romney this past election because Obama was so anti-coal.

WV is now a "red" state. It's gone Republican the last four times.

I understand what you are saying, but the state is dominated by Democrats in the local and state offices.

It would be akin to saying New York City is Red because Bloomberg was voted in and has maintained the Mayor's office.

Despite my earlier comment, I don't disagree there are "two America's" out there. In many states it goes well beyond "Red State-Blue State". For example in Ohio were I live Cncinnati is vastly different from Cleveland on a political and cultural basis. Columbus is different than Toledo. Southeastern Ohio and areas north known as The Ohio Valley bares little resemblance to the rest of the state.

(07-19-2013 11:58 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 11:46 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  This is an interesting discussion.

BTW, I am the one who argued WV's counties were the only ones moving the WVU needle in PGH and I am certain I'm right. If I weren't, that would show up by way of radio talk show discussion, television news features, newspaper features, etc.

Well, there is ZERO radio talk show discussion of WVU sports and limited television and NP features (once in a blue moon type stuff). What does that tell you about those media entities' research with regard to interest levels in this area?

Again, I want to make it clear that this is not rah-rah rivalry BS. It's a serious observation. Within the boundaries of West Virginia the Mountaineers are EVERYTHING to those people. That's why the Dude of WV's fairy tales took off in the first place - because big time college athletics is literally all they have and they were terrified of being left behind and the rumors gave them some hope.

However, PA and WV are EXTREMELY different culturally and as soon as you cross the borders of one state into the other those differences show up in a big way. They also show up in sports.

For example, in another life, I lived and worked in West Virginia for about two and a half years. The town that I lived in is called Nutter Fort, which is approximately two hours due south of Pittsburgh. Two hours!

Even though I was just two hours away, I felt like I may as well have been living in Arkansas. The cultures were just so radically different from each other and the mores and attitudes towards everything were so radically different that it really caught me by surprise.

Just a totally different world.

With that in mind, I really have come to believe that there are two distinctly different Americas culturally. Based on my experiences, I absolutely do buy into the whole red state vs. blue state divide and believe that it shows not only our political differences but also our attitudes towards media consumption, entertainment interests and even sports fandom. That would make a helluva book, IMHO.

If you want to know which states are the most passionate about college football versus those that are the most passionate pro areas, and politically conservative versus liberal, and Fox News watchers versus everyone else, and religiously zealous or homogenous or diverse or what have you - just look at an election map during any given presidential election and it will tell you everything you need to know.

As you discuss this, you might remember that a wanna be geographer did a piss-poor study of this that appeared in the media. He set up study where people at colleges could self report who they pulled for and pegged that to georaphic areas based on a number of flawed assertions. Among his results that I recall were that Arkansas State was more popular than most Divison 1 teams, that East Carolina was more popular than UNC in eastern North Carolina and that Rutgers was hugely more popular in NYC than ND, Penn State, or Syracuse. What he had done was dump all the colleges into a specific geography so when for example 210 Rutgers students voted, all their votes went into NYC, etc., etc. Only some colleges actually voted and there were no statistical controls.

On top of this a moron reporter took these bad results, masseged them and announced that Rutgers was the most popular team in the nation based on it's supposed popularity in NYC.

Watch out for extremely flawed data on this topic.

Dude, can you provide some links to back that up?

(07-19-2013 03:06 PM)brista21 Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 11:58 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 11:46 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  This is an interesting discussion.

BTW, I am the one who argued WV's counties were the only ones moving the WVU needle in PGH and I am certain I'm right. If I weren't, that would show up by way of radio talk show discussion, television news features, newspaper features, etc.

Well, there is ZERO radio talk show discussion of WVU sports and limited television and NP features (once in a blue moon type stuff). What does that tell you about those media entities' research with regard to interest levels in this area?

Again, I want to make it clear that this is not rah-rah rivalry BS. It's a serious observation. Within the boundaries of West Virginia the Mountaineers are EVERYTHING to those people. That's why the Dude of WV's fairy tales took off in the first place - because big time college athletics is literally all they have and they were terrified of being left behind and the rumors gave them some hope.

However, PA and WV are EXTREMELY different culturally and as soon as you cross the borders of one state into the other those differences show up in a big way. They also show up in sports.

For example, in another life, I lived and worked in West Virginia for about two and a half years. The town that I lived in is called Nutter Fort, which is approximately two hours due south of Pittsburgh. Two hours!

Even though I was just two hours away, I felt like I may as well have been living in Arkansas. The cultures were just so radically different from each other and the mores and attitudes towards everything were so radically different that it really caught me by surprise.

Just a totally different world.

With that in mind, I really have come to believe that there are two distinctly different Americas culturally. Based on my experiences, I absolutely do buy into the whole red state vs. blue state divide and believe that it shows not only our political differences but also our attitudes towards media consumption, entertainment interests and even sports fandom. That would make a helluva book, IMHO.

If you want to know which states are the most passionate about college football versus those that are the most passionate pro areas, and politically conservative versus liberal, and Fox News watchers versus everyone else, and religiously zealous or homogenous or diverse or what have you - just look at an election map during any given presidential election and it will tell you everything you need to know.

As you discuss this, you might remember that a wanna be geographer did a piss-poor study of this that appeared in the media. He set up study where people at colleges could self report who they pulled for and pegged that to georaphic areas based on a number of flawed assertions. Among his results that I recall were that Arkansas State was more popular than most Divison 1 teams, that East Carolina was more popular than UNC in eastern North Carolina and that Rutgers was hugely more popular in NYC than ND, Penn State, or Syracuse. What he had done was dump all the colleges into a specific geography so when for example 210 Rutgers students voted, all their votes went into NYC, etc., etc. Only some colleges actually voted and there were no statistical controls.

On top of this a moron reporter took these bad results, masseged them and announced that Rutgers was the most popular team in the nation based on it's supposed popularity in NYC.

Watch out for extremely flawed data on this topic.

Dude, can you provide some links to back that up?

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09...ent-chaos/

(07-19-2013 11:58 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 11:46 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  This is an interesting discussion.

BTW, I am the one who argued WV's counties were the only ones moving the WVU needle in PGH and I am certain I'm right. If I weren't, that would show up by way of radio talk show discussion, television news features, newspaper features, etc.

Well, there is ZERO radio talk show discussion of WVU sports and limited television and NP features (once in a blue moon type stuff). What does that tell you about those media entities' research with regard to interest levels in this area?

Again, I want to make it clear that this is not rah-rah rivalry BS. It's a serious observation. Within the boundaries of West Virginia the Mountaineers are EVERYTHING to those people. That's why the Dude of WV's fairy tales took off in the first place - because big time college athletics is literally all they have and they were terrified of being left behind and the rumors gave them some hope.

However, PA and WV are EXTREMELY different culturally and as soon as you cross the borders of one state into the other those differences show up in a big way. They also show up in sports.

For example, in another life, I lived and worked in West Virginia for about two and a half years. The town that I lived in is called Nutter Fort, which is approximately two hours due south of Pittsburgh. Two hours!

Even though I was just two hours away, I felt like I may as well have been living in Arkansas. The cultures were just so radically different from each other and the mores and attitudes towards everything were so radically different that it really caught me by surprise.

Just a totally different world.

With that in mind, I really have come to believe that there are two distinctly different Americas culturally. Based on my experiences, I absolutely do buy into the whole red state vs. blue state divide and believe that it shows not only our political differences but also our attitudes towards media consumption, entertainment interests and even sports fandom. That would make a helluva book, IMHO.

If you want to know which states are the most passionate about college football versus those that are the most passionate pro areas, and politically conservative versus liberal, and Fox News watchers versus everyone else, and religiously zealous or homogenous or diverse or what have you - just look at an election map during any given presidential election and it will tell you everything you need to know.

As you discuss this, you might remember that a wanna be geographer did a piss-poor study of this that appeared in the media. He set up study where people at colleges could self report who they pulled for and pegged that to georaphic areas based on a number of flawed assertions. Among his results that I recall were that Arkansas State was more popular than most Divison 1 teams, that East Carolina was more popular than UNC in eastern North Carolina and that Rutgers was hugely more popular in NYC than ND, Penn State, or Syracuse. What he had done was dump all the colleges into a specific geography so when for example 210 Rutgers students voted, all their votes went into NYC, etc., etc. Only some colleges actually voted and there were no statistical controls.

On top of this a moron reporter took these bad results, masseged them and announced that Rutgers was the most popular team in the nation based on it's supposed popularity in NYC.

Watch out for extremely flawed data on this topic.

You've got the story off just a bit. Common Census basically went about on the web asking people to come to a link and answer different questions (among them, most favorite college team). Arkansas State did very well as did East Carolina. But it was a self-selected survey.

Nate Silver (and others) have taken that data and tried to make use of it. http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09...ent-chaos/

Silver noted he reduced Arkansas State significantly based on attendance and budget. But there may have been more truth to it than Silver supposed. He projected Arkansas State as having fewer fans than Troy but Troy had just completed a run of 5 consecutive years of 8 or more wins. Later that year Arkansas State completes a 10 win season and drew more fans than Troy had in any of the prior 5 and then the next year did sell some games out.

While the common census in part measured how motivated someone was to give a shout for their team, I think it also provided a (imperfect) measure of what I call latent fans. Those people who are tracking scores and watching games on TV but maybe not buying tickets or merchandise until there is success that will pull them out of the background. In 2007 there were three stores in Jonesboro that consistently stocked Arkansas State merchandise. In 2008 with the Red Wolves roll out that began climbing and now 130 miles away in Little Rock where Arkansas State merchandise was a rare oddity it is making more and more appearances and the largest sports store in the state's busiest mall stocks four racks of Arkansas State shirts that are placed at the front of the store in a higher profile position than Arkansas merchandise. That latent fan is now in a buying mood.

(07-19-2013 01:14 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(07-19-2013 11:46 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  This is an interesting discussion.

BTW, I am the one who argued WV's counties were the only ones moving the WVU needle in PGH and I am certain I'm right. If I weren't, that would show up by way of radio talk show discussion, television news features, newspaper features, etc.

Well, there is ZERO radio talk show discussion of WVU sports and limited television and NP features (once in a blue moon type stuff). What does that tell you about those media entities' research with regard to interest levels in this area?

Again, I want to make it clear that this is not rah-rah rivalry BS. It's a serious observation. Within the boundaries of West Virginia the Mountaineers are EVERYTHING to those people. That's why the Dude of WV's fairy tales took off in the first place - because big time college athletics is literally all they have and they were terrified of being left behind and the rumors gave them some hope.

However, PA and WV are EXTREMELY different culturally and as soon as you cross the borders of one state into the other those differences show up in a big way. They also show up in sports.

For example, in another life, I lived and worked in West Virginia for about two and a half years. The town that I lived in is called Nutter Fort, which is approximately two hours due south of Pittsburgh. Two hours!

Even though I was just two hours away, I felt like I may as well have been living in Arkansas. The cultures were just so radically different from each other and the mores and attitudes towards everything were so radically different that it really caught me by surprise.

Just a totally different world.

With that in mind, I really have come to believe that there are two distinctly different Americas culturally. Based on my experiences, I absolutely do buy into the whole red state vs. blue state divide and believe that it shows not only our political differences but also our attitudes towards media consumption, entertainment interests and even sports fandom. That would make a helluva book, IMHO.

If you want to know which states are the most passionate about college football versus those that are the most passionate pro areas, and politically conservative versus liberal, and Fox News watchers versus everyone else, and religiously zealous or homogenous or diverse or what have you - just look at an election map during any given presidential election and it will tell you everything you need to know.

It may not necessarily be 100 percent but it sure correlates on a high percentage of states, IMHO.

Compare that map, the 2004 and 2008 Presidential election maps to the 1860 Presidential election map.

Not much has changed, really. Sectionalism is alive and well. There are two different "countries" in "America".

Texas & California with 4 electoral votes each, and Florida with 3.

The Nielsen maps are a joke.

Examples. Poinsett County Arkansas is in the Memphis market. Most people in the county work and shop in Jonesboro. It is a 15-20 minute drive for most country residents. Memphis TV does not cover local events nor do they give scores of the local high school teams. At 6pm and 10pm the Jonesboro ABC affiliate draws nearly half the audience in the county despite it being in the "Memphis market".

Jackson County Arkansas is in the Little Rock market. Residents in the northern part of the county can literally see the transmitter of the Jonesboro ABC and PBS affiliates from their house. Watching Little Rock TV with an outdoor mast antenna is problematic but most of the county can receive the Jonesboro stations with an indoor antenna.

Izard County Arkansas is in the Little Rock market, without a tall amplified antenna you could not receive a Little Rock TV station. With the switch to digital you cannot receive a usable signal. Jonesboro though comes in fine with an antenna. As of a few years ago, the local cable system did not offer any Little Rock station on its line-up.

Additionally there is one county in Missouri that is in the Memphis TV market. You cannot receive Memphis stations via antenna. The only stations you can receive by antenna are Jonesboro, Ark.

Ever look at a map of the Dallas/Fort Worth market? There are counties included that are cannot receive a Dallas TV signal with an antenna but have no difficulty receiving TV from smaller market stations.

While it was all big joke for years, it wasn't that big of a deal until the advent of satellite TV. Sat customers suddenly could no longer get their local station because the map said that wasn't their local station. Now with some of the advanced blackout schemes being used people are being blacked out of games on PPV or online because the game is being shown locally when they cannot get the station carrying the game.