The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

I have to post this for the entertainment value.
Some of the themes in this are that ODU are thugs, but it's just terrible for an ODU poster to point out a grammatical error.

....or the calling UR "snobs".

Then there are the responses of JMU posters to App and Ark St posters regarding the JMU contention that the JMU APR doesn't warrant their raised noses at the SBC.

Best of all (IMHO) is that after all of these years of hearing that "JMU is a public Ivy" (yes Longhorn really said that), I decided to do some research.

If you don't take the thread too seriously it is hilarious how some JMU posters can dish it out but cannot take it.

http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?pid=9466347#pid9466347

I've long grown tired of JMU's incessant drum beating on their supposed academic superiority. Nobody outside of their alumni think this is a truly elite school. Yes, it's a good school, but it's nothing special. My son was an exceptional student and he never even considered JMU. His college search consisted of UVA, UNC, W&M and Wake Forest. He is now a proud alumni of Wake Forest and Wake Forest Med School. The point being, students like my son put JMU on the same level as Towson or ODU.

JMU alumni seem to have a bad case of "little man's" syndrome. They have to constantly tell you how special they are...and how much we suck. If they were truly special, they wouldn't have to tell you about it. No Harvard grad runs around saying, "I went to Harvard. That's a good school, you know!".

Not all ODU grads are dummies. I was a great student that attended ODU for my MBA out of necessity. I was an officer in the Navy with a family and a full time job. My GMAT scores were in the 91st percentile and I could have gone anywhere. However family, work and finances dictated ODU as the best option. Guess what? It worked out great. I've been very successful and happy since graduation.

When you point out to JMU grads that many of us are high earners, they get defensive. They have literally said, "why do ODU grads always talk about how much money they make?". I replied that it's because JMU grads like to brag about their SAT scores, and money is a better indicator of real success. That seems to shut them up!

I'm proud of ODU and wouldn't trade my degree for anything. It's a part of me and integral to who I am. It also doesn't hurt that our athletics are light years better!

(07-05-2013 06:19 PM)Maryland Monarch Wrote:  I've long grown tired of JMU's incessant drum beating on their supposed academic superiority. Nobody outside of their alumni think this is a truly elite school. Yes, it's a good school, but it's nothing special. My son was an exceptional student and he never even considered JMU. His college search consisted of UVA, UNC, W&M and Wake Forest. He is now a proud alumni of Wake Forest and Wake Forest Med School. The point being, students like my son put JMU on the same level as Towson or ODU.

JMU alumni seem to have a bad case of "little man's" syndrome. They have to constantly tell you how special they are...and how much we suck. If they were truly special, they wouldn't have to tell you about it. No Harvard grad runs around saying, "I went to Harvard. That's a good school, you know!".

Not all ODU grads are dummies. I was a great student that attended ODU for my MBA out of necessity. I was an officer in the Navy with a family and a full time job. My GMAT scores were in the 91st percentile and I could have gone anywhere. However family, work and finances dictated ODU as the best option. Guess what? It worked out great. I've been very successful and happy since graduation.

When you point out to JMU grads that many of us are high earners, they get defensive. They have literally said, "why do ODU grads always talk about how much money they make?". I replied that it's because JMU grads like to brag about their SAT scores, and money is a better indicator of real success. That seems to shut them up!

I'm proud of ODU and wouldn't trade my degree for anything. It's a part of me and integral to who I am. It also doesn't hurt that our athletics are light years better!

Not much more to say than this.

(07-05-2013 06:19 PM)Maryland Monarch Wrote:  I've long grown tired of JMU's incessant drum beating on their supposed academic superiority. Nobody outside of their alumni think this is a truly elite school. Yes, it's a good school, but it's nothing special. My son was an exceptional student and he never even considered JMU. His college search consisted of UVA, UNC, W&M and Wake Forest. He is now a proud alumni of Wake Forest and Wake Forest Med School. The point being, students like my son put JMU on the same level as Towson or ODU.

JMU alumni seem to have a bad case of "little man's" syndrome. They have to constantly tell you how special they are...and how much we suck. If they were truly special, they wouldn't have to tell you about it. No Harvard grad runs around saying, "I went to Harvard. That's a good school, you know!".

Not all ODU grads are dummies. I was a great student that attended ODU for my MBA out of necessity. I was an officer in the Navy with a family and a full time job. My GMAT scores were in the 91st percentile and I could have gone anywhere. However family, work and finances dictated ODU as the best option. Guess what? It worked out great. I've been very successful and happy since graduation.

When you point out to JMU grads that many of us are high earners, they get defensive. They have literally said, "why do ODU grads always talk about how much money they make?". I replied that it's because JMU grads like to brag about their SAT scores, and money is a better indicator of real success. That seems to shut them up!

I'm proud of ODU and wouldn't trade my degree for anything. It's a part of me and integral to who I am. It also doesn't hurt that our athletics are light years better!

Great post and I agree with every word.

I've never seen a school that has an inferiority complex like JMU. My sister is a graduate. I have to say, it is absolutely bizzarre... I mean all they graduate is teachers and nurses lmao.

Does anyone have these conversations in real life? I have a dozen or so close friends from high school I still keep in touch with and have never had these types of discussions. Some are sports fans others aren't. But not once in our lives has comparing our schools come up. In fact I just spent a week with 3 of my friends who went to JMU with about 5 of us who went to ODU. We talked about football and what ODU is doing, mainly to catch my friend up on the happenings who lives in Houston. Outside of message board fodder none of this chest puffing, from either school, exist. At least not outside die hard sports fans I guess.

I kid you not they had a thread the other day asking if people still had their JMU acceptance letter. You can't make this <stuff> up.

For the record my sister and many of my friends went to JMU and none of them act like the clowns on this board.

My best friend and former ODU roommate is marrying a JMU grad. I never hear the academic arguments from her or her friends. The only thing that annoys me is their obsession with the Marching Royal Dukes.

When I was in school, JMU was not even a University. I only had one high school friend who went there, and she was no sports fan. I don't remember running into many, if any JMU grads in my career (broadcast engineering).
Consequently I have no frame of reference.

I do know that the internet is likely not a reliable sample of JMU fans, students, and grads as a whole.
The JMU boards (ours too) are 30-40 hard core sports fans.

However, after becoming a mod, I spent alot of time on the other boards so as to get a feel for how things were done.
There are no other boards whereby the fanbase is constantly espousing their academic prowess as being a primary reason that they deserve preferences over other schools and the justification for "looking down their noses" at the Sun Belt, and to a lesser degree CUSA.

Additionally, the JMU fanbase is myopic in it's own assessment of academics; focusing on undergraduate selectivity almost exclusively as the criteria of choice.

Imagine the rancor when confronted with these CAA facts. (no one has yet seriously replied)

CAA selectivity rank (percent):
W&M 32% higher incoming test scores
Northeastern 32% higher incoming test scores
Elon 52% higher incoming test scores
Towson 52% lower incoming test scores
UNCW 53% higher incoming test scores
UD 59% higher incoming test scores
Hofstra 59% higher incoming test scores
JMU 61%
CoC 74% higher incoming test scores
Drexel 75% higher incoming test scores

There are some shifts if you add in test scores, but for JMU that only takes them above Towson (which drops like an anchor), but below Drexel and CoC.

Adding CAA football:
Richmond 30%, higher incoming test scores
Stony Brook 40%, higher incoming test scores
Villanova 46%, higher incoming test scores
Albany 51%, lower incoming test scores
Maine 78%, lower incoming test scores
UNH 78%, lower incoming test scores
Rhode Island 85% lower incoming test scores




Selectivity percentile based on usnwr and about college apps 2012
Incoming test scores based on SAT only

OK. I think we we're done with the overriding academics arguments from JMU, at least for now.

When confronted with facts and data they have responded, not with facts and data of their own, but excuses and tangents:

"JMU has actually seen their Average SAT and GPA decline over the last 15 years thanks to STATE mandated growth (going from 13,000 to 20,000 in 12 years)."

"Your definition of selectivity is to put it plainly, crap, and not worth a pitcher of warm spit. It bears no relation to any metric but your own bias."

"Ok, for a reason why admit rate means NOTHING"

"Enrollment rate as a proportionof acceptance rate really only highlight s the two way street of the whole process....once in, students pick jmu more than they choose hofstra...and many other schools"

"this thread is bad, and it should make everyone feel bad."

JMU is a great school, but their claims of "Public Ivy", "Second only to W&M in the CAA", and "we really should hold out for the ACC because our academics are too good for any other conference" are completely debunked, at least based on the criteria they have used since the 'Zone (selectivity and test scores).

Personally I always thought that ignoring many other factors such as retention, graduation rates, graduate offerings, whether a school is a National Research Institution, jobs in field after graduation percentages, salaries, and many others, was a mistake.

James Madison and Old Dominion are two different types of universities.

JMU has solid undergraduate programs in business and music, however it is overall a very regional school with a tiny endowment, a dearth of high level research, and a location that leaves much to be desired (these types of things are important when you think about faculty recruitment and salaries).

ODU is a large research university, with an endowment more than double JMU's, with strong programs in engineering, physics, oceanography, modeling and simulation,as well as many other high research areas. When you compare the degree offerings and research potential for each school, it's not even close. In Virginia, ODU's peer schools are VCU, GMU, and VT; not JMU.

I still hold that if a school constantly touts their superior academics (even if it were true) on an athletics message board, it says alot more about the state of their athletic programs than about their academics.

Slightly off topic, but still regarding academics, what role do you think academics should/does play in the recruitment process? Some recruits at ODU have been impressed by the emphasis that we put on school work and the strengths of some of our programs, particularly engineering.

It has to be hard to reach the balance between having a large pool to choose from, but still having student athletes who will get their degrees and also attracting some clever athletes who want a good education. As tough as this is, I think our coaches are doing a good job at it. ODU isn't Duke or Stanford, but I think that we do have certain programs that we can show off as an education and a qualification as something that is a rival to almost any other public school.

(07-08-2013 12:30 PM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  Slightly off topic, but still regarding academics, what role do you think academics should/does play in the recruitment process? Some recruits at ODU have been impressed by the emphasis that we put on school work and the strengths of some of our programs, particularly engineering.

It has to be hard to reach the balance between having a large pool to choose from, but still having student athletes who will get their degrees and also attracting some clever athletes who want a good education. As tough as this is, I think our coaches are doing a good job at it. ODU isn't Duke or Stanford, but I think that we do have certain programs that we can show off as an education and a qualification as something that is a rival to almost any other public school.

Hehe this is a good read. Supposedly there are a number of top coaches who are "allowed", or even have in their contracts that a school will relax admission standards for football.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/29604...-standards

I found this because I had remembered Lou Holtz talking about Notre Dame putting that into an actual contract so as to become competitive again.

I think that we are moving in the right direction and Coach Wilder has the right idea.
http://hamptonroads.com/2013/06/odu-foot...-both-rise

I tailgated with my friend's family (JMU people) before the ODU/JMU in Harrisonburg this past fall. There was a middle aged man who droned on and on about the superiority of JMU academics. It was extremely odd. I have also sensed a superiority complex from current students of JMU during weekend visits to party.

Many of the JMU alum and current students actually think they attended/are attending a prestigious university.

If you need to tell people that your school is prestigious, your school is not prestigious.

I find myself shaking my head again this morning at the JMU assertion that it brings the DC market to whatever conference it might move to.
First, one needs to understand that "bringing the market" means that a conference or individual school (like Notre Dame) media deal guarantees play on a carrier(s) in that market. Almost always (Notre Dame, B1G, SEC excepted) that means that the program resides within the DMA of that market.
JMU, of course, does not.

JMU continuously touts it's large alumni base in the metro DC area as enough to "bring" the DC market

Let's look at the numbers.
The Estimated JMU alumni total in that area is 30,000 (Source JMU)
The population in the DC/MD/NoVa statistical area in 2012 was estimated to be 9,331,587 (Source US Census Bureau)
That total raw number (30,000) represents less than than one half of one percent (.3) of the total population.

That best case raw number is not nearly enough to interest carriers and advertisers, much less that the 30,000 should then be parsed by age and gender in order to get a realistic metric of those who would watch sports. Given the history of JMU's gender percentage , it is possible, likely even, that the total number of alumni that would support JMU sports drops by 1/3 or even more.

Bottom line; JMU as a regional university not located within the DMA will not "bring" the DC metro media market by default.
Additionally, it is extremely unlikely that an alumni presence that represents one third of one percent of the total population of the statistical area would be significant enough to persuade carriers that the financial reward of carrying JMu would outweigh the costs involved.

(07-11-2013 10:03 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  I find myself shaking my head again this morning at the JMU assertion that it brings the DC market to whatever conference it might move to.
First, one needs to understand that "bringing the market" means that a conference or individual school (like Notre Dame) media deal guarantees play on a carrier(s) in that market. Almost always (Notre Dame, B1G, SEC excepted) that means that the program resides within the DMA of that market.
JMU, of course, does not.

JMU continuously touts it's large alumni base in the metro DC area as enough to "bring" the DC market

Let's look at the numbers.
The Estimated JMU alumni total in that area is 30,000 (Source JMU)
The population in the DC/MD/NoVa statistical area in 2012 was estimated to be 9,331,587 (Source US Census Bureau)
That total raw number (30,000) represents less than than one half of one percent (.3) of the total population.

That best case raw number is not nearly enough to interest carriers and advertisers, much less that the 30,000 should then be parsed by age and gender in order to get a realistic metric of those who would watch sports. Given the history of JMU's gender percentage , it is possible, likely even, that the total number of alumni that would support JMU sports drops by 1/3 or even more.

Bottom line; JMU as a regional university not located within the DMA will not "bring" the DC metro media market by default.
Additionally, it is extremely unlikely that an alumni presence that represents one third of one percent of the total population of the statistical area would be significant enough to persuade carriers that the financial reward of carrying JMu would outweigh the costs involved.

If you enjoy the JMU/DC market topic, a handful of us went round & round with the JMU folks. It's a good read: http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=629295

(07-11-2013 02:51 PM)ODU2003 Wrote:  

(07-11-2013 10:03 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  I find myself shaking my head again this morning at the JMU assertion that it brings the DC market to whatever conference it might move to.
First, one needs to understand that "bringing the market" means that a conference or individual school (like Notre Dame) media deal guarantees play on a carrier(s) in that market. Almost always (Notre Dame, B1G, SEC excepted) that means that the program resides within the DMA of that market.
JMU, of course, does not.

JMU continuously touts it's large alumni base in the metro DC area as enough to "bring" the DC market

Let's look at the numbers.
The Estimated JMU alumni total in that area is 30,000 (Source JMU)
The population in the DC/MD/NoVa statistical area in 2012 was estimated to be 9,331,587 (Source US Census Bureau)
That total raw number (30,000) represents less than than one half of one percent (.3) of the total population.

That best case raw number is not nearly enough to interest carriers and advertisers, much less that the 30,000 should then be parsed by age and gender in order to get a realistic metric of those who would watch sports. Given the history of JMU's gender percentage , it is possible, likely even, that the total number of alumni that would support JMU sports drops by 1/3 or even more.

Bottom line; JMU as a regional university not located within the DMA will not "bring" the DC metro media market by default.
Additionally, it is extremely unlikely that an alumni presence that represents one third of one percent of the total population of the statistical area would be significant enough to persuade carriers that the financial reward of carrying JMu would outweigh the costs involved.

If you enjoy the JMU/DC market topic, a handful of us went round & round with the JMU folks. It's a good read: http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=629295

Great read!

Yeah, I have never thought it was a good idea to have JMU in the CUSA
Recruiting would suffer some, but the big issue would be the sharing of television time in the State. A decision on who to show would have to be made locally outside of our home markets, (say Richmond, Roanoke, NoVa) for any football or basketball games which overlapped in time slot.
It's not like CUSA would have 2 games on two different channels at the same time.

That would mean a potentially significant loss of exposure and media revenue for ODU.
No thanks.

I would love to see an analysis of impact to us from exposure, merchandising, and recruiting perspectives if JMU goes FBS in another conference. I am not so sure even that would be good for ODU.

(07-11-2013 02:51 PM)ODU2003 Wrote:  

(07-11-2013 10:03 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  I find myself shaking my head again this morning at the JMU assertion that it brings the DC market to whatever conference it might move to.
First, one needs to understand that "bringing the market" means that a conference or individual school (like Notre Dame) media deal guarantees play on a carrier(s) in that market. Almost always (Notre Dame, B1G, SEC excepted) that means that the program resides within the DMA of that market.
JMU, of course, does not.

JMU continuously touts it's large alumni base in the metro DC area as enough to "bring" the DC market

Let's look at the numbers.
The Estimated JMU alumni total in that area is 30,000 (Source JMU)
The population in the DC/MD/NoVa statistical area in 2012 was estimated to be 9,331,587 (Source US Census Bureau)
That total raw number (30,000) represents less than than one half of one percent (.3) of the total population.

That best case raw number is not nearly enough to interest carriers and advertisers, much less that the 30,000 should then be parsed by age and gender in order to get a realistic metric of those who would watch sports. Given the history of JMU's gender percentage , it is possible, likely even, that the total number of alumni that would support JMU sports drops by 1/3 or even more.

Bottom line; JMU as a regional university not located within the DMA will not "bring" the DC metro media market by default.
Additionally, it is extremely unlikely that an alumni presence that represents one third of one percent of the total population of the statistical area would be significant enough to persuade carriers that the financial reward of carrying JMu would outweigh the costs involved.

If you enjoy the JMU/DC market topic, a handful of us went round & round with the JMU folks. It's a good read: http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=629295

Hehe you guys are great!