Wichita State has impressive athletic credentials, and it really is a shorter drive from Omaha to Wichita than from Omaha to St. Louis. The problem is that Wichita State isn't within reasonable driving distance of any OTHER western Big East member. Drive time from Wichita to Chicago is over 11 hours.

In contrast, Saint Louis is within reasonable driving distance of all five of the other western Big East schools. Drive time from St. Louis to Milwaukee is a little over 6 hours, and to Cincinnati is under 6 hours.

As between Saint Louis, Dayton, VCU and Wichita St, I'm guessing at least 1 of those schools ends up in the AAC.

(07-02-2013 05:59 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 05:09 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 01:05 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 10:30 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 10:04 AM)monarchman Wrote:  No.

You would prefer to stay in a league with a bunch of crappy southern schools that stretches all the way to the border of Mexico.

Yes.

Ditto.

Enjoy playing in a conference that has never participated in a BCS bowl with no hope of doing so anytime soon....

Yeah this conference would fall out of p5 category absolutely no good football teams here!

(07-03-2013 01:44 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  As between Saint Louis, Dayton, VCU and Wichita St, I'm guessing at least 1 of those schools ends up in the AAC.

Since EVERYONE in the AAC will have football I would imagine that Dayton gets the first look. But - do they have any FBS aspirations?

I can see Wichita State joining the Big East someday, even if they are a public school. No football to speak of means they are 100% devoted to basketball.

(07-03-2013 01:37 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  Wichita State has impressive athletic credentials, and it really is a shorter drive from Omaha to Wichita than from Omaha to St. Louis. The problem is that Wichita State isn't within reasonable driving distance of any OTHER western Big East member. Drive time from Wichita to Chicago is over 11 hours.

In contrast, Saint Louis is within reasonable driving distance of all five of the other western Big East schools. Drive time from St. Louis to Milwaukee is a little over 6 hours, and to Cincinnati is under 6 hours.

I agree which is why I thought St Louis would have been the pick originally. But once you add Omaha that makes it an almost impossible drive. So given Omaha is already in the league it changes the dynamics somewhat.

(07-03-2013 10:53 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(07-03-2013 01:37 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  Wichita State has impressive athletic credentials, and it really is a shorter drive from Omaha to Wichita than from Omaha to St. Louis. The problem is that Wichita State isn't within reasonable driving distance of any OTHER western Big East member. Drive time from Wichita to Chicago is over 11 hours.

In contrast, Saint Louis is within reasonable driving distance of all five of the other western Big East schools. Drive time from St. Louis to Milwaukee is a little over 6 hours, and to Cincinnati is under 6 hours.

I agree which is why I thought St Louis would have been the pick originally. But once you add Omaha that makes it an almost impossible drive. So given Omaha is already in the league it changes the dynamics somewhat.

Why do you think teams are DRIVING to Omaha? It's 2013, Southwest flies there from almost every city in this league.

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Dude, you are not one of us. You are a Fresno fan. I don't care if your daughter goes to Butler, you have zero idea what you're talking about when you talk about this league. We WENT to these schools and have been involved with them for YEARS and have played each other for DECADES. We understand how our schools think and act.

Did someone from Wichita steal your girlfriend? Seriously you can't even reasonably consider the data points. I haven't said Wichita State is a slam dunk but given we already invited Creighton they have to be considered especially given a final four run.

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  As for your "facts". It's quicker and easier to get to Omaha from St. Louis than it is to get to Wichita from Omaha. Thats a fact. Wichita has NOTHING IN COMMON with the Big East members.

That is a fact based on what? Your opinion? Last I checked Google showed the drive from Omaha to Wichita much shorter. No one will fly from either Omaha to St. Louis or Omaha to Wichita. You may not like it but it is true

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Saint Louis just won the regular season and tournament championships of the A-10 which was a MUCH harder conference than the MVC. They had to beat Xavier, Butler, VCU, LaSalle, Temple, UMass, Charlotte and St. Joe's. They dominated a superior conference.

Dude your really comparing a A-10 Championship with a final four run? Not to mention that championship with done with players recruited by a coach that is no longer living. Lots of questions still with Saint Louis and this transition.

These doesn't even include total sports strength where Wichita State finished 54 in Director's cup standings and St Louis finished 132.

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Oh and NO F'IN WAY does Fox push for Wichita over Saint Louis. Wichita is a truck stop compared to St. Louis. (No offense to the good folks of Kansas) St. Louis is the #21 DMA and Wichita is #66.

http://www.tvb.org/measurement/131627

Thats a FACT.

First thanks for finally using some numbers but Fox looks at in-season basketball ratings. Yes, St Louis is a bigger market but it is also a baseball and football town and not a basketball town. Unlike Wichita and Kansas in general which is a huge basketball market.

The basketball ratings for Wichita last year was .157 over 7 games
The basketball ratings for St. Louis last year was .083 over 6 games

Given Wichita States final four run those ratings are likely to go up so if you are Fox which do you prefer? How is that enhanced by the fact that Majerus in no longer at St. Louis.

That doesn't mean that institutional fit won't trump all of the above. Clearly it might and I am not trashing St. Louis as I would like to see them go to 14 and add both. But I don't think they will go to 14. In determining who should be the western team among 11/12, I doubt I am the only one looking at these numbers and debating whether St. Louis or Wichita State is the better pick for 12.

Sactown,

You seem to be a good guy, but for not trashing Saint Louis, you sure trash Saint Louis. The two best "free agent" basketball programs are WSU and VCU. That said, there's a bunch of balls in play, as well as the one of nothing happening.

That A-10 championship was won by Jim Crews last I checked. So your point is irrelevant there.

(07-03-2013 12:18 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Dude, you are not one of us. You are a Fresno fan. I don't care if your daughter goes to Butler, you have zero idea what you're talking about when you talk about this league. We WENT to these schools and have been involved with them for YEARS and have played each other for DECADES. We understand how our schools think and act.

Did someone from Wichita steal your girlfriend? Seriously you can't even reasonably consider the data points. I haven't said Wichita State is a slam dunk but given we already invited Creighton they have to be considered especially given a final four run.

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  As for your "facts". It's quicker and easier to get to Omaha from St. Louis than it is to get to Wichita from Omaha. Thats a fact. Wichita has NOTHING IN COMMON with the Big East members.

That is a fact based on what? Your opinion? Last I checked Google showed the drive from Omaha to Wichita much shorter. No one will fly from either Omaha to St. Louis or Omaha to Wichita. You may not like it but it is true

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Saint Louis just won the regular season and tournament championships of the A-10 which was a MUCH harder conference than the MVC. They had to beat Xavier, Butler, VCU, LaSalle, Temple, UMass, Charlotte and St. Joe's. They dominated a superior conference.

Dude your really comparing a A-10 Championship with a final four run? Not to mention that championship with done with players recruited by a coach that is no longer living. Lots of questions still with Saint Louis and this transition.

These doesn't even include total sports strength where Wichita State finished 54 in Director's cup standings and St Louis finished 132.

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Oh and NO F'IN WAY does Fox push for Wichita over Saint Louis. Wichita is a truck stop compared to St. Louis. (No offense to the good folks of Kansas) St. Louis is the #21 DMA and Wichita is #66.

http://www.tvb.org/measurement/131627

Thats a FACT.

First thanks for finally using some numbers but Fox looks at in-season basketball ratings. Yes, St Louis is a bigger market but it is also a baseball and football town and not a basketball town. Unlike Wichita and Kansas in general which is a huge basketball market.

The basketball ratings for Wichita last year was .157 over 7 games
The basketball ratings for St. Louis last year was .083 over 6 games

Given Wichita States final four run those ratings are likely to go up so if you are Fox which do you prefer? How is that enhanced by the fact that Majerus in no longer at St. Louis.

That doesn't mean that institutional fit won't trump all of the above. Clearly it might and I am not trashing St. Louis as I would like to see them go to 14 and add both. But I don't think they will go to 14. In determining who should be the western team among 11/12, I doubt I am the only one looking at these numbers and debating whether St. Louis or Wichita State is the better pick for 12.

I'm sorry but your ignorance of the Big East and this situation is on full display here. There is no way that the rest of the league wants to bus from Omaha to Wichita. They MUCH rather fly into St. Louis then into Omaha, which if you haven't realized is much quicker, easier and in most cases CHEAPER than renting a bus to drive for four friggin' hours.

http://www.southwest.com/flight/shortcut...boundDate=

Also, if you knew anything how TV execs think, it's not about how many people actually tune in but how many homes you can make to buy your network. If you actually really think Fox is pushing for Wichita over Saint Louis then you really need to get your head on straight. Why do you think the B1G took Rutgers and Maryland over bigger FB names? Tulane over Tulsa in the AAC? Colorado over Boise in the Pac?

(07-02-2013 12:56 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  I think it will be St. Louis as #11 and Dayton as #12. Richmond could contend based on its desirable TV market and recent NCAA tournament success (Sweet 16 in 2011), but I give Dayton the edge due to its larger arena, higher attendance and Catholic affiliation. I don't think VCU fits the conference profile.

I think this is about right: SLU as soon as the New Big East decides to expand to 12, then Dayton on the inside track and Richmond on the outside.

While FS1/FS2 will want the extra inventory, its only useful inventory if people will tune in to watch the teams play. If the New Big East plays an 18 game conference schedule, many of the bigger matchups can be retained Home and Away with twelve schools, since each school would play half the conference on a home and away basis. Go beyond that, and the loss of quality in the inventory starts to offset the increase in quantity.

Good news for Dayton includes the fact that the secondary sports that would have given Richmond an additional edge seem to be getting separate solutions, like Denver for Lacrosse.

(07-03-2013 01:00 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 12:56 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  I think it will be St. Louis as #11 and Dayton as #12. Richmond could contend based on its desirable TV market and recent NCAA tournament success (Sweet 16 in 2011), but I give Dayton the edge due to its larger arena, higher attendance and Catholic affiliation. I don't think VCU fits the conference profile.

I think this is about right: SLU as soon as the New Big East decides to expand to 12, then Dayton on the inside track and Richmond on the outside.

While FS1/FS2 will want the extra inventory, its only useful inventory if people will tune in to watch the teams play. If the New Big East plays an 18 game conference schedule, many of the bigger matchups can be retained Home and Away with twelve schools, since each school would play half the conference on a home and away basis. Go beyond that, and the loss of quality in the inventory starts to offset the increase in quantity.

Good news for Dayton includes the fact that the secondary sports that would have given Richmond an additional edge seem to be getting separate solutions, like Denver for Lacrosse.

Bingo!! Bring out the whistles & bells! We have a winner!

(07-03-2013 12:25 PM)LouPower Wrote:  Sactown,

You seem to be a good guy, but for not trashing Saint Louis, you sure trash Saint Louis. The two best "free agent" basketball programs are WSU and VCU. That said, there's a bunch of balls in play, as well as the one of nothing happening.

That A-10 championship was won by Jim Crews last I checked. So your point is irrelevant there.

Lou, as you know I am not anti-SLU and will be the first to buy you a beer if SLU gets invited. SLU is a great University and should IMHO be part of the Big East.

The point which even you mentioned is Crew's recruiting is still unproven as a head coach. We just don't know if he can get the same kind of players Majerus can. He very well could but know one can say for certain at this point.

(07-03-2013 12:59 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(07-03-2013 12:18 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Dude, you are not one of us. You are a Fresno fan. I don't care if your daughter goes to Butler, you have zero idea what you're talking about when you talk about this league. We WENT to these schools and have been involved with them for YEARS and have played each other for DECADES. We understand how our schools think and act.

Did someone from Wichita steal your girlfriend? Seriously you can't even reasonably consider the data points. I haven't said Wichita State is a slam dunk but given we already invited Creighton they have to be considered especially given a final four run.

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  As for your "facts". It's quicker and easier to get to Omaha from St. Louis than it is to get to Wichita from Omaha. Thats a fact. Wichita has NOTHING IN COMMON with the Big East members.

That is a fact based on what? Your opinion? Last I checked Google showed the drive from Omaha to Wichita much shorter. No one will fly from either Omaha to St. Louis or Omaha to Wichita. You may not like it but it is true

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Saint Louis just won the regular season and tournament championships of the A-10 which was a MUCH harder conference than the MVC. They had to beat Xavier, Butler, VCU, LaSalle, Temple, UMass, Charlotte and St. Joe's. They dominated a superior conference.

Dude your really comparing a A-10 Championship with a final four run? Not to mention that championship with done with players recruited by a coach that is no longer living. Lots of questions still with Saint Louis and this transition.

These doesn't even include total sports strength where Wichita State finished 54 in Director's cup standings and St Louis finished 132.

(07-03-2013 01:15 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Oh and NO F'IN WAY does Fox push for Wichita over Saint Louis. Wichita is a truck stop compared to St. Louis. (No offense to the good folks of Kansas) St. Louis is the #21 DMA and Wichita is #66.

http://www.tvb.org/measurement/131627

Thats a FACT.

First thanks for finally using some numbers but Fox looks at in-season basketball ratings. Yes, St Louis is a bigger market but it is also a baseball and football town and not a basketball town. Unlike Wichita and Kansas in general which is a huge basketball market.

The basketball ratings for Wichita last year was .157 over 7 games
The basketball ratings for St. Louis last year was .083 over 6 games

Given Wichita States final four run those ratings are likely to go up so if you are Fox which do you prefer? How is that enhanced by the fact that Majerus in no longer at St. Louis.

That doesn't mean that institutional fit won't trump all of the above. Clearly it might and I am not trashing St. Louis as I would like to see them go to 14 and add both. But I don't think they will go to 14. In determining who should be the western team among 11/12, I doubt I am the only one looking at these numbers and debating whether St. Louis or Wichita State is the better pick for 12.

I'm sorry but your ignorance of the Big East and this situation is on full display here. There is no way that the rest of the league wants to bus from Omaha to Wichita. They MUCH rather fly into St. Louis then into Omaha, which if you haven't realized is much quicker, easier and in most cases CHEAPER than renting a bus to drive for four friggin' hours.

http://www.southwest.com/flight/shortcut...boundDate=

Also, if you knew anything how TV execs think, it's not about how many people actually tune in but how many homes you can make to buy your network. If you actually really think Fox is pushing for Wichita over Saint Louis then you really need to get your head on straight. Why do you think the B1G took Rutgers and Maryland over bigger FB names? Tulane over Tulsa in the AAC? Colorado over Boise in the Pac?

Tell you want, if my daughters volleyball team flies between any current travel pair in the big east I will send you a check for $100. if they bus or van between them all you owe me a check for $50. I can tell you not a single team flew from St. Louis to Indy last year when Butler and St Louis where travel partners.

In terms of the Big 10 that is a different scenario as it has to do with penetration of the Big 10 network on cable not ratings for basketball. They are not analogous.

Sactown,

I know you're Pro-WSU. It just the two schools in the conversation are always the same. I don't think Crews recruiting so far has been any different from what Majerus did before him. It's still not Brad Soderberg.

(07-03-2013 01:00 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 12:56 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  I think it will be St. Louis as #11 and Dayton as #12. Richmond could contend based on its desirable TV market and recent NCAA tournament success (Sweet 16 in 2011), but I give Dayton the edge due to its larger arena, higher attendance and Catholic affiliation. I don't think VCU fits the conference profile.

I think this is about right: SLU as soon as the New Big East decides to expand to 12, then Dayton on the inside track and Richmond on the outside.

While FS1/FS2 will want the extra inventory, its only useful inventory if people will tune in to watch the teams play. If the New Big East plays an 18 game conference schedule, many of the bigger matchups can be retained Home and Away with twelve schools, since each school would play half the conference on a home and away basis. Go beyond that, and the loss of quality in the inventory starts to offset the increase in quantity.

Good news for Dayton includes the fact that the secondary sports that would have given Richmond an additional edge seem to be getting separate solutions, like Denver for Lacrosse.

So the problem Dayton has is travel partners. By having clear travel partners you can dramatically cut costs in minor sports. The article on Creighton speaks to the importance of cost containment in non revenue sports.

I think a Richmond or Siena gets in before Dayton (assuming the stay private) because they pair with an eastern team to form clear travel partners in the east while Dayton doesn't easily pair with anyone in the east. Dayton did pair well with Xavier but Butler kind of took their spot.

(07-03-2013 04:25 PM)LouPower Wrote:  Sactown,

I know you're Pro-WSU. It just the two schools in the conversation are always the same. I don't think Crews recruiting so far has been any different from what Majerus did before him. It's still not Brad Soderberg.

Lou-

I think if they go to 12 it will have to be St Louis or Wichita State in the west with Denver maybe having an outside shot. But I can't see them taking Denver over St. Louis given the state of Denver's basketball currently. And given the need for travel pairs I don't think they can take SLU and Wichita State at 12. Most people think SLU is a slam dunk but I am not sure they are.

In the east you can have virtually the same conversation with Richmond/Siena and VCU.

(07-03-2013 04:42 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(07-03-2013 01:00 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 12:56 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  I think it will be St. Louis as #11 and Dayton as #12. Richmond could contend based on its desirable TV market and recent NCAA tournament success (Sweet 16 in 2011), but I give Dayton the edge due to its larger arena, higher attendance and Catholic affiliation. I don't think VCU fits the conference profile.

I think this is about right: SLU as soon as the New Big East decides to expand to 12, then Dayton on the inside track and Richmond on the outside.

While FS1/FS2 will want the extra inventory, its only useful inventory if people will tune in to watch the teams play. If the New Big East plays an 18 game conference schedule, many of the bigger matchups can be retained Home and Away with twelve schools, since each school would play half the conference on a home and away basis. Go beyond that, and the loss of quality in the inventory starts to offset the increase in quantity.

Good news for Dayton includes the fact that the secondary sports that would have given Richmond an additional edge seem to be getting separate solutions, like Denver for Lacrosse.

So the problem Dayton has is travel partners. By having clear travel partners you can dramatically cut costs in minor sports. The article on Creighton speaks to the importance of cost containment in non revenue sports.

I think a Richmond or Siena gets in before Dayton (assuming the stay private) because they pair with an eastern team to form clear travel partners in the east while Dayton doesn't easily pair with anyone in the east. Dayton did pair well with Xavier but Butler kind of took their spot.

Dude, you are waaaaaaaaay to obsessed with travel partners and Fox somehow wanting Wichita over Saint Louis. If travel partners were such a concern than Creighton would never have been selected to begin with. Also, getting the Blue Jays a travel partner is not even close to a reason to expand.

Also your assumption that Siena would get in over Dayton is laughable. Siena is not even close to being considered for this league.

(07-03-2013 04:42 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(07-03-2013 01:00 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 12:56 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  I think it will be St. Louis as #11 and Dayton as #12. Richmond could contend based on its desirable TV market and recent NCAA tournament success (Sweet 16 in 2011), but I give Dayton the edge due to its larger arena, higher attendance and Catholic affiliation. I don't think VCU fits the conference profile.

I think this is about right: SLU as soon as the New Big East decides to expand to 12, then Dayton on the inside track and Richmond on the outside.

While FS1/FS2 will want the extra inventory, its only useful inventory if people will tune in to watch the teams play. If the New Big East plays an 18 game conference schedule, many of the bigger matchups can be retained Home and Away with twelve schools, since each school would play half the conference on a home and away basis. Go beyond that, and the loss of quality in the inventory starts to offset the increase in quantity.

Good news for Dayton includes the fact that the secondary sports that would have given Richmond an additional edge seem to be getting separate solutions, like Denver for Lacrosse.

So the problem Dayton has is travel partners. By having clear travel partners you can dramatically cut costs in minor sports. The article on Creighton speaks to the importance of cost containment in non revenue sports.

I think a Richmond or Siena gets in before Dayton (assuming the stay private) because they pair with an eastern team to form clear travel partners in the east while Dayton doesn't easily pair with anyone in the east. Dayton did pair well with Xavier but Butler kind of took their spot.

I agree that one of the issues with Dayton is the travel partner problem. Richmond would be much easier to pair with an eastern member (Georgetown being the obvious choice), and I almost gave Richmond the edge for that specific reason.

But I couldn't ignore the fact that Dayton routinely puts 12,000-plus fans in the seats for its games. That's about double Richmond's attendance and for that reason I see Dayton being the preferred choice.

(07-03-2013 05:23 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  

(07-03-2013 04:42 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(07-03-2013 01:00 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(07-02-2013 12:56 AM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  I think it will be St. Louis as #11 and Dayton as #12. Richmond could contend based on its desirable TV market and recent NCAA tournament success (Sweet 16 in 2011), but I give Dayton the edge due to its larger arena, higher attendance and Catholic affiliation. I don't think VCU fits the conference profile.

I think this is about right: SLU as soon as the New Big East decides to expand to 12, then Dayton on the inside track and Richmond on the outside.

While FS1/FS2 will want the extra inventory, its only useful inventory if people will tune in to watch the teams play. If the New Big East plays an 18 game conference schedule, many of the bigger matchups can be retained Home and Away with twelve schools, since each school would play half the conference on a home and away basis. Go beyond that, and the loss of quality in the inventory starts to offset the increase in quantity.

Good news for Dayton includes the fact that the secondary sports that would have given Richmond an additional edge seem to be getting separate solutions, like Denver for Lacrosse.

So the problem Dayton has is travel partners. By having clear travel partners you can dramatically cut costs in minor sports. The article on Creighton speaks to the importance of cost containment in non revenue sports.

I think a Richmond or Siena gets in before Dayton (assuming the stay private) because they pair with an eastern team to form clear travel partners in the east while Dayton doesn't easily pair with anyone in the east. Dayton did pair well with Xavier but Butler kind of took their spot.

I agree that one of the issues with Dayton is the travel partner problem. Richmond would be much easier to pair with an eastern member (Georgetown being the obvious choice), and I almost gave Richmond the edge for that specific reason.

But I couldn't ignore the fact that Dayton routinely puts 12,000-plus fans in the seats for its games. That's about double Richmond's attendance and for that reason I see Dayton being the preferred choice.

Dayton to me was in competition with Butler. Interesting Brad waited until after the announcement to announce he was leaving for the Celtics. Had this happened 4 months ago Dayton might have gotten Butlers spot.