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Zimmerman Trial Updates
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 08:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  dawgitall,

It's the Casey Anthony thing all over again. She was guilty as sin of many, many things but the prosecution went for the kill shot and because of that they fell short. Now it's not clear who did what and we can banter about what we think happened all day long.

But at the end of the day the prosecution needs to *prove* *beyond a reasonable doubt* that Zimmerman went after martin with the intention of killing him. Not that he is dumb, not that he started it, not that he did not have the upper hand... They have to prove the whole thing started with the intent to shoot and kill the kid.

Juries clearly consider the weight of a sentence and the bar of proof needed for the charge. Someone who *might* have found for manslaughter and not going to find for murder.

The absolute best case here for hte prosecution is a hung jury.
I don't know Florida law. In Florida a jury can't find the person guilty of a lesser charge? I don't think Zimmerman had the intention of killing him until he was in the middle of the fight. Even then I imagine the thought process was more instinctive than rational. I would think 2nd degree or manslaughter would have been a more likely verdict. But if the only verdict is 1st degree murder than I agree.
06-26-2013 08:20 PM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 07:59 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:54 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

If it was a mutual fight, you might have an argument for manslaughter, not murder, but if Martin started the physical altercation, i.e. threw the first punch, then Zimmerman is not guilty of anything. But there's no evidence on that issue, so there has to be reasonable doubt.

Given that logic wouldn't someone that gets in a fight but doesn't throw the first punch have the right to shoot the other guy?

only if he has a reasonable fear for his life or someone else's life.
06-26-2013 08:23 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 08:10 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:08 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  05-ban
(06-26-2013 07:51 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

Then clearly you don't know what murder is..

Maybe not. I'm not an attorney in Florida. I just know a kid was walking home and ended up in a fight with a grown man that had been following him around and that man shot and killed him. That is screwed up.

Well, if that's all you know then you need to let the trial play out and hear Zman's side of the story.

Wouldn't that hold true for all of us? None of us have all the evidence and it is easy to pick and choose the parts that help support any argument.
06-26-2013 08:26 PM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 08:26 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:10 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:08 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  05-ban
(06-26-2013 07:51 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

Then clearly you don't know what murder is..

Maybe not. I'm not an attorney in Florida. I just know a kid was walking home and ended up in a fight with a grown man that had been following him around and that man shot and killed him. That is screwed up.

Well, if that's all you know then you need to let the trial play out and hear Zman's side of the story.

Wouldn't that hold true for all of us? None of us have all the evidence and it is easy to pick and choose the parts that help support any argument.

“if I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”
06-26-2013 08:32 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 08:20 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  dawgitall,

It's the Casey Anthony thing all over again. She was guilty as sin of many, many things but the prosecution went for the kill shot and because of that they fell short. Now it's not clear who did what and we can banter about what we think happened all day long.

But at the end of the day the prosecution needs to *prove* *beyond a reasonable doubt* that Zimmerman went after martin with the intention of killing him. Not that he is dumb, not that he started it, not that he did not have the upper hand... They have to prove the whole thing started with the intent to shoot and kill the kid.

Juries clearly consider the weight of a sentence and the bar of proof needed for the charge. Someone who *might* have found for manslaughter and not going to find for murder.

The absolute best case here for hte prosecution is a hung jury.
I don't know Florida law. In Florida a jury can't find the person guilty of a lesser charge?

No, thats why Anthony walked away scott free..

Quote:I don't think Zimmerman had the intention of killing him until he was in the middle of the fight.

Then you, on that Jury would have to find not guilty of murder.

Quote:Even then I imagine the thought process was more instinctive than rational. I would think 2nd degree or manslaughter would have been a more likely verdict. But if the only verdict is 1st degree murder than I agree.

Find Law:

Quote:Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion"; or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life. Second-degree murder may best be viewed as the middle ground between first-degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

Neither of these sum up what you just said..
06-26-2013 08:35 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 08:23 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:59 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:54 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

If it was a mutual fight, you might have an argument for manslaughter, not murder, but if Martin started the physical altercation, i.e. threw the first punch, then Zimmerman is not guilty of anything. But there's no evidence on that issue, so there has to be reasonable doubt.

Given that logic wouldn't someone that gets in a fight but doesn't throw the first punch have the right to shoot the other guy?

only if he has a reasonable fear for his life or someone else's life.

or in some cases/states, property.

Murder basically means that you went into the situation with the intent to kill which is why the defense is trying to establish the "mindset". To me, the fact that the girl testified that when martin first saw zimmerman up close, he was inquisitive/challenging rather than in fear leads me to believe that zimmerman didn't go into the confrontation with a weapon drawn... which would have caused me, as a prosecutor, to go for something other than murder.
06-26-2013 08:43 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 08:26 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:10 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:08 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  05-ban
(06-26-2013 07:51 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

Then clearly you don't know what murder is..

Maybe not. I'm not an attorney in Florida. I just know a kid was walking home and ended up in a fight with a grown man that had been following him around and that man shot and killed him. That is screwed up.

Well, if that's all you know then you need to let the trial play out and hear Zman's side of the story.

Wouldn't that hold true for all of us? None of us have all the evidence and it is easy to pick and choose the parts that help support any argument.

I'm sorry I thought we started with the presumption of innocence...
06-26-2013 09:30 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
Fact is the Defense destroyed the witnesses today. We have one woman who mentioned for the first time today that the running sound was left to right, as if not playing (when asked when she got up to look).

Multiple police statements and documented statements and never once mentioned it until three days after meeting with the prosecution to get coached. She also said

she had no interest in seeing Zimmerman prosecuted and was just there to tell the truth than the defense found her signature on a petition to try the murderer Zimmerman who killed our son.

Quote:“Because you thought that George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin improperly, and should be prosecuted,” O’Mara suggested.

“I never said that,” replied Bahadoor.

“But you signed this petition, did you not, calling for the “prosecution of the killer of our son Trayvon Martin.”

And, indeed, Bahadoor was obliged to identify her signature on the copy of the petition held out to her by O’Mara.
06-26-2013 09:30 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
We will just have to see how it all unfolds. Evidently the DA sees something the layperson is not seeing, or he is incompetent. What kind of track record does he have?
06-26-2013 09:47 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 09:30 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:26 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:10 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:08 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  05-ban
(06-26-2013 07:51 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Then clearly you don't know what murder is..

Maybe not. I'm not an attorney in Florida. I just know a kid was walking home and ended up in a fight with a grown man that had been following him around and that man shot and killed him. That is screwed up.

Well, if that's all you know then you need to let the trial play out and hear Zman's side of the story.

Wouldn't that hold true for all of us? None of us have all the evidence and it is easy to pick and choose the parts that help support any argument.

I'm sorry I thought we started with the presumption of innocence...

In theory yes, and if you are on the jury yes, but everybody else....not so much 04-cheers
06-26-2013 09:52 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 09:47 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  We will just have to see how it all unfolds. Evidently the DA sees something the layperson is not seeing, or he is incompetent. What kind of track record does he have?

The DA is trying to make the case that Zimmerman acted odd for even himself. The police witnesses all said he was a polite and professional, even a bit timid.

They are trying to introduce all of Zimmerman's 911 recordings, once where he is perfectly calm and collected, to establish that for Zimmerman to begin the pursuit is out of character.

If you want to see how bad this went for them..

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/06/zim...witnesses/
06-26-2013 10:00 PM
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firmbizzle Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 08:17 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:00 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:59 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:54 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

If it was a mutual fight, you might have an argument for manslaughter, not murder, but if Martin started the physical altercation, i.e. threw the first punch, then Zimmerman is not guilty of anything. But there's no evidence on that issue, so there has to be reasonable doubt.

Given that logic wouldn't someone that gets in a fight but doesn't throw the first punch have the right to shoot the other guy?

Yes.

Yes, but only if at the time they shot they were reasonably in fear of great bodily harm. Here, Zimmerman can argue that getting wailed on MMA style and having his head smashed against concrete could cause great bodily harm, e.g. damage to his eyes, brain, or bone fractures. If there is any reasonable doubt about whether Zimmerman was reasonably in fear of great bodily harm, then he is not guilty.

If Zimmerman got into a mutual fight or started the fight and then got overpowered and killed Martin then he would be guilty of voluntary manslaughter. But again, the prosecution would need some evidence of who started the fight (which it apparently doesn't have).

He started the altercation by stalking Martin.
06-27-2013 04:16 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-27-2013 04:16 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:17 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 08:00 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:59 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:54 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  If it was a mutual fight, you might have an argument for manslaughter, not murder, but if Martin started the physical altercation, i.e. threw the first punch, then Zimmerman is not guilty of anything. But there's no evidence on that issue, so there has to be reasonable doubt.

Given that logic wouldn't someone that gets in a fight but doesn't throw the first punch have the right to shoot the other guy?

Yes.

Yes, but only if at the time they shot they were reasonably in fear of great bodily harm. Here, Zimmerman can argue that getting wailed on MMA style and having his head smashed against concrete could cause great bodily harm, e.g. damage to his eyes, brain, or bone fractures. If there is any reasonable doubt about whether Zimmerman was reasonably in fear of great bodily harm, then he is not guilty.

If Zimmerman got into a mutual fight or started the fight and then got overpowered and killed Martin then he would be guilty of voluntary manslaughter. But again, the prosecution would need some evidence of who started the fight (which it apparently doesn't have).

He started the altercation by stalking Martin.

He for sure is an idiot. No sane person with a CCW would have allowed this situation to escalate. What happened goes against everything you are taught in your training. Zimmerman is an example of someone that should never been allowed to carry concealed. He most likely will walk..but..he deserves to be locked up. He is a moron.
06-27-2013 06:52 AM
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Smaug Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
Someone remind me what he was charged with. Murder 1?

If so, he walks. They should have looked at some manslaughter charge. His idiocy is a big contributing factor.
06-27-2013 06:56 AM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-27-2013 06:56 AM)Smaug Wrote:  Someone remind me what he was charged with. Murder 1?

If so, he walks. They should have looked at some manslaughter charge. His idiocy is a big contributing factor.

I agree. The State did what the public wanted. The should have gone for a lesser charge.
06-27-2013 07:11 AM
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ummechengr Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
I would love to hear a reasonable explanation to these photos, that could lead a jury to believe, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman's account of the events, was a lie.
[Image: gz-original-injuries.jpg?w=640&h=320]
(This post was last modified: 06-27-2013 07:55 AM by ummechengr.)
06-27-2013 07:53 AM
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GoApps70 Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
Zimmerman may be an idiot, even many of his supporters would probably agree to an extent, but he did seem to be concerned,
overly concerned, about the safety around his community. At least have to give him some credit for getting up off his rear end
and doing what most people would never do. Hopefully many would never do it the way he did.
06-27-2013 08:07 AM
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Smaug Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-27-2013 07:11 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(06-27-2013 06:56 AM)Smaug Wrote:  Someone remind me what he was charged with. Murder 1?

If so, he walks. They should have looked at some manslaughter charge. His idiocy is a big contributing factor.

I agree. The State did what the public wanted. The should have gone for a lesser charge.

And that's where the ball was dropped in the prosecution of this case.

What was it Reagan said? "Better to get 80% of something than 100% of nothing."
06-27-2013 08:09 AM
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GoApps70 Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-27-2013 08:09 AM)Smaug Wrote:  
(06-27-2013 07:11 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(06-27-2013 06:56 AM)Smaug Wrote:  Someone remind me what he was charged with. Murder 1?

If so, he walks. They should have looked at some manslaughter charge. His idiocy is a big contributing factor.

I agree. The State did what the public wanted. The should have gone for a lesser charge.

And that's where the ball was dropped in the prosecution of this case.

What was it Reagan said? "Better to get 80% of something than 100% of nothing."

Wouldn't doubt it, know he said, "The person who agrees with you 80 percent of the time is a friend and an ally -- not a 20 percent traitor."

RR had a think @ 80%....thought if you agreed with someone on 80% of the issues, you could work out most of the 20% disagreement, and might change you own mind on some things.
06-27-2013 08:43 AM
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Smaug Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
My point was it's better to get some of what you want (Z behind bars, at least for a little while) than nothing (he walks).
06-27-2013 08:52 AM
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