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Zimmerman Trial Updates
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
The black male “was mounted on the white or Hispanic male and throwing punches ‘MMA (mixed martial arts) style.’” The witness said he called out that he was dialing 911, then heard a pop and saw the black male “laid out on the grass.”
(This post was last modified: 06-26-2013 07:23 PM by SumOfAllFears.)
06-26-2013 07:17 PM
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Jugnaut Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 07:05 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  According to Sanford Police Department reports released today, a witness interviewed 90 minutes after the shooting testified that he saw Martin straddling George Zimmerman on the ground and violently battering him “MMA” style before Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest.

I actually heard that guy tell his story on TV when this all started. He kept his face hidden but said exactly what you posted. He was sure Martin was the one on top and beating Zimmerman.

I don't see how they can get a conviction in this case. No one can established who started the physical altercation. Zimmerman has a messed up nose and head consistent with having your head bashed on the concrete and there's an independent witness who says he saw Martin bashing Zimmerman MMA style. That's it, game over. Reasonable doubt all over the place.

It was stupid to bring this prosecution. If they really wanted to reach and bring a prosecution they should've tried voluntary manslaughter but even that's a reach with the lack of evidence.
(This post was last modified: 06-26-2013 07:25 PM by Jugnaut.)
06-26-2013 07:18 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 06:54 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 06:38 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I don't know guys. A 16 kid walking back to the place he is staying and a grown man following him? Regardless of who at the moment it became physical was the aggressor you have a fight. A fight between a kid and an adult. The kid was tall and possibly in good shape, at least in good shape by virtue of being 16 if nothing else. The adult while shorter is much heavier and if I'm not mistaken had worked as a bouncer. Now even if he was out of shape, a bouncer knows how to handle physical confrontations. The kid has no weapon, the adult has a handgun. If they stood and boxed I would give the advantage to the kid but we all know that fights seldom unfold like that. Most real fights end up on the ground. On the ground Zimmerman has the advantage and in all likelihood would end up on top fairly quickly unless the kid has MMA skills. The kid gets shot and the adult walks away with a few scraps and bruises. The only way I see Zimmerman walking on this is if the defense can convince the jury that Zimmerman was about to be beaten to death by this kid. He says that Martin was on top, slamming his head on the sidewalk. Is their any evidence that this is true? Or is that a way to justify what he did?

Of course we can speculate all we want but it only matters what the jury believes. All we are basing any of this on is preconceived notions, media coverage, conjecture and personal bias.

If you know anything about Street fights or bouncing it's the first good shot, especially by surprise, can almost always eliminate a size advantage. For all we know Zman was a wuss, which is why he carried a gun.

That is an interesting observation. It the girl's testimony is true it was Zimmerman that was behind Martin just before the confrontation started and Martin speaks to him so that would eliminate surprise. If she is lying and Zimmerman was jumped from behind then that would hold true.
06-26-2013 07:20 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 07:20 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 06:54 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 06:38 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I don't know guys. A 16 kid walking back to the place he is staying and a grown man following him? Regardless of who at the moment it became physical was the aggressor you have a fight. A fight between a kid and an adult. The kid was tall and possibly in good shape, at least in good shape by virtue of being 16 if nothing else. The adult while shorter is much heavier and if I'm not mistaken had worked as a bouncer. Now even if he was out of shape, a bouncer knows how to handle physical confrontations. The kid has no weapon, the adult has a handgun. If they stood and boxed I would give the advantage to the kid but we all know that fights seldom unfold like that. Most real fights end up on the ground. On the ground Zimmerman has the advantage and in all likelihood would end up on top fairly quickly unless the kid has MMA skills. The kid gets shot and the adult walks away with a few scraps and bruises. The only way I see Zimmerman walking on this is if the defense can convince the jury that Zimmerman was about to be beaten to death by this kid. He says that Martin was on top, slamming his head on the sidewalk. Is their any evidence that this is true? Or is that a way to justify what he did?

Of course we can speculate all we want but it only matters what the jury believes. All we are basing any of this on is preconceived notions, media coverage, conjecture and personal bias.

If you know anything about Street fights or bouncing it's the first good shot, especially by surprise, can almost always eliminate a size advantage. For all we know Zman was a wuss, which is why he carried a gun.

That is an interesting observation. It the girl's testimony is true it was Zimmerman that was behind Martin just before the confrontation started and Martin speaks to him so that would eliminate surprise. If she is lying and Zimmerman was jumped from behind then that would hold true.

A surprise punch does not need to come from behind..
06-26-2013 07:24 PM
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SumOfAllFears Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 07:18 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:05 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  According to Sanford Police Department reports released today, a witness interviewed 90 minutes after the shooting testified that he saw Martin straddling George Zimmerman on the ground and violently battering him “MMA” style before Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest.

I actually heard that guy tell his story on TV when this all started. He kept his face hidden but said exactly what you posted. He was sure Martin was the one on top and beating Zimmerman.

I don't see how they can get a conviction in this case. No one can established who started the physical altercation. Zimmerman has a messed up nose and head consistent with having your head bashed on the concrete and there's an independent witness who says he saw Martin bashing Zimmerman MMA style. That's it, game over. Reasonable doubt all over the place.

It was stupid to bring this prosecution. If they really wanted to reach and bring a prosecution they should've tried voluntary manslaughter but even that's a reach with the lack of evidence.

Zimmerman could have been in fear for his life with the next MMA blow.
06-26-2013 07:26 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
Where is Robs now that we're giving the brown man the benefit of doubt?
06-26-2013 07:28 PM
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Jugnaut Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 07:26 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:18 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:05 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  According to Sanford Police Department reports released today, a witness interviewed 90 minutes after the shooting testified that he saw Martin straddling George Zimmerman on the ground and violently battering him “MMA” style before Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest.

I actually heard that guy tell his story on TV when this all started. He kept his face hidden but said exactly what you posted. He was sure Martin was the one on top and beating Zimmerman.

I don't see how they can get a conviction in this case. No one can established who started the physical altercation. Zimmerman has a messed up nose and head consistent with having your head bashed on the concrete and there's an independent witness who says he saw Martin bashing Zimmerman MMA style. That's it, game over. Reasonable doubt all over the place.

It was stupid to bring this prosecution. If they really wanted to reach and bring a prosecution they should've tried voluntary manslaughter but even that's a reach with the lack of evidence.

Zimmerman could have been in fear for his life with the next MMA blow.

Yeah, I think most would have reasonable doubt in that scenario. Having your head punched and smashed against concrete could cause "great bodily harm" which entitles a person to use deadly force in self-defense.
06-26-2013 07:30 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 06:58 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 06:38 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I don't know guys. A 16 kid walking back to the place he is staying and a grown man following him?

16 years old, and four inches taller.

Quote:Regardless of who at the moment it became physical was the aggressor you have a fight. A fight between a kid and an adult.

Talk to teachers about how well they might fare against some of the kids in their room... Are you saying you can tell a 16 year old from say and 18 year old on sight?

Have you sen teens playing "the knock out game"

Quote:The kid was tall and possibly in good shape, at least in good shape by virtue of being 16 if nothing else. The adult while shorter is much heavier and if I'm not mistaken had worked as a bouncer.

30 pounds is not all that much, I'd rather have the reach because a strong 160 pound kid can throw with enough force to drop someone.

Quote:Now even if he was out of shape, a bouncer knows how to handle physical confrontations. The kid has no weapon, the adult has a handgun.

And yet Z had the marks on the back of his head and Martin did not. Who had a hand gun is immaterial, beating someone stupid, or to death, is not complicated.

Quote:If they stood and boxed I would give the advantage to the kid but we all know that fights seldom unfold like that. Most real fights end up on the ground.

True, but even there reach is damn important because if Martin was on top he had Z down, immobile, and still had superior reach. You're also dismissing the impact of that firs shot, a good bare fist punch to the head can stun you pretty good. In fact it's not hard to put someone nearly out with a well placed punch.

Quote:On the ground Zimmerman has the advantage and in all likelihood would end up on top fairly quickly unless the kid has MMA skills. The kid gets shot and the adult walks away with a few scraps and bruises.

Well at least people are acknowledging Z's injusries, you know the ones to the back of his head, and his broken nose... The ones consistent with his version of what happened.

Quote:The only way I see Zimmerman walking on this is if the defense can convince the jury that Zimmerman was about to be beaten to death by this kid.


That went out the door with the Murder charge. The defense has to prove intent, intent before the confrontation or that when Z pulled the trigger the confrontation was not ongoing..

Prove beyond a reasonable doubt. The state screwed this up when the went murder rather than manslaughter because the "Z created the environment" while true is not at all relevant.

Quote:He says that Martin was on top, slamming his head on the sidewalk. Is their any evidence that this is true? Or is that a way to justify what he did?


Injuries on the back of his head. Now the front where he would have them if he was on top but the back, where his head would have hit the ground.

Quote:Of course we can speculate all we want but it only matters what the jury believes. All we are basing any of this on is preconceived notions, media coverage, conjecture and personal bias.

FWIW I did study martial arts for 4 or five years after college. The best student in our school was a girl who was maybe 5'10" and weighed all of 115 pounds.

Nobody lasted against her she was sick. I was ok and if I got in close I could make a go of it but even on the ground it was like fighting s freakin fire hose.

It does not take being in a different weight class to knock someone out.




Actually I am a public school teacher. I've broken up a number of fights in my 26 years in the classroom. I'm no great big guy or anything but my biggest asset is my weight.
06-26-2013 07:36 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 07:24 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:20 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 06:54 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 06:38 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  I don't know guys. A 16 kid walking back to the place he is staying and a grown man following him? Regardless of who at the moment it became physical was the aggressor you have a fight. A fight between a kid and an adult. The kid was tall and possibly in good shape, at least in good shape by virtue of being 16 if nothing else. The adult while shorter is much heavier and if I'm not mistaken had worked as a bouncer. Now even if he was out of shape, a bouncer knows how to handle physical confrontations. The kid has no weapon, the adult has a handgun. If they stood and boxed I would give the advantage to the kid but we all know that fights seldom unfold like that. Most real fights end up on the ground. On the ground Zimmerman has the advantage and in all likelihood would end up on top fairly quickly unless the kid has MMA skills. The kid gets shot and the adult walks away with a few scraps and bruises. The only way I see Zimmerman walking on this is if the defense can convince the jury that Zimmerman was about to be beaten to death by this kid. He says that Martin was on top, slamming his head on the sidewalk. Is their any evidence that this is true? Or is that a way to justify what he did?

Of course we can speculate all we want but it only matters what the jury believes. All we are basing any of this on is preconceived notions, media coverage, conjecture and personal bias.

If you know anything about Street fights or bouncing it's the first good shot, especially by surprise, can almost always eliminate a size advantage. For all we know Zman was a wuss, which is why he carried a gun.

That is an interesting observation. It the girl's testimony is true it was Zimmerman that was behind Martin just before the confrontation started and Martin speaks to him so that would eliminate surprise. If she is lying and Zimmerman was jumped from behind then that would hold true.

A surprise punch does not need to come from behind..

I once worked with a guy who said he was a bouncer at some point in his life. He was small and hardly intimidating at all. I asked him how a tiny guy like him (5'8") could handle rowdy people? He said he would get pretty close to them, put his hand on his chin and act like he was talking and listening to the trouble maker, and then with his hand just 2 feet away from the guy's face he would snap punch the guy in the nose. This would cause not only surprise, but the guy's eyes would immediately create tears and no matter how big he was, my buddy had at least a few seconds to kick him in the nuts or punch him in the throat.

Knowing how to fight is often more important than size.
06-26-2013 07:38 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.
06-26-2013 07:44 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

Huh? I could have been kill or be killed. How does the guy who is getting his ass kicked know when it will stop?
06-26-2013 07:48 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

Then clearly you don't know what murder is..
06-26-2013 07:51 PM
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Jugnaut Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

If it was a mutual fight, you might have an argument for manslaughter, not murder, but if Martin started the physical altercation, i.e. threw the first punch, then Zimmerman is not guilty of anything. But there's no evidence on that issue, so there has to be reasonable doubt.
06-26-2013 07:54 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
The problem with street fights is that often, no matter who started it, the guy who wins goes to jail and pays the other guys doctor bills unless there is a video somewhere which would exonerate him.
06-26-2013 07:59 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 07:54 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

If it was a mutual fight, you might have an argument for manslaughter, not murder, but if Martin started the physical altercation, i.e. threw the first punch, then Zimmerman is not guilty of anything. But there's no evidence on that issue, so there has to be reasonable doubt.

Given that logic wouldn't someone that gets in a fight but doesn't throw the first punch have the right to shoot the other guy?
06-26-2013 07:59 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 07:59 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:54 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

If it was a mutual fight, you might have an argument for manslaughter, not murder, but if Martin started the physical altercation, i.e. threw the first punch, then Zimmerman is not guilty of anything. But there's no evidence on that issue, so there has to be reasonable doubt.

Given that logic wouldn't someone that gets in a fight but doesn't throw the first punch have the right to shoot the other guy?

Yes.
06-26-2013 08:00 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
dawgitall,

It's the Casey Anthony thing all over again. She was guilty as sin of many, many things but the prosecution went for the kill shot and because of that they fell short. Now it's not clear who did what and we can banter about what we think happened all day long.

But at the end of the day the prosecution needs to *prove* *beyond a reasonable doubt* that Zimmerman went after martin with the intention of killing him. Not that he is dumb, not that he started it, not that he did not have the upper hand... They have to prove the whole thing started with the intent to shoot and kill the kid.

Juries clearly consider the weight of a sentence and the bar of proof needed for the charge. Someone who *might* have found for manslaughter and not going to find for murder.

The absolute best case here for hte prosecution is a hung jury.
06-26-2013 08:01 PM
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dawgitall Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
05-ban
(06-26-2013 07:51 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

Then clearly you don't know what murder is..

Maybe not. I'm not an attorney in Florida. I just know a kid was walking home and ended up in a fight with a grown man that had been following him around and that man shot and killed him. That is screwed up.
06-26-2013 08:08 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 08:08 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  05-ban
(06-26-2013 07:51 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

Then clearly you don't know what murder is..

Maybe not. I'm not an attorney in Florida. I just know a kid was walking home and ended up in a fight with a grown man that had been following him around and that man shot and killed him. That is screwed up.

Well, if that's all you know then you need to let the trial play out and hear Zman's side of the story.
06-26-2013 08:10 PM
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Post: #60
RE: Zimmerman Trial Updates
(06-26-2013 08:00 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:59 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:54 PM)Jugnaut Wrote:  
(06-26-2013 07:44 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  It is just hard for me to wrap my mind around two people getting in a fight, the guy that is getting their ass kicked pulls a gun out and shoots the other guy, and he can be found not guilty. To me that seems like murder.

If it was a mutual fight, you might have an argument for manslaughter, not murder, but if Martin started the physical altercation, i.e. threw the first punch, then Zimmerman is not guilty of anything. But there's no evidence on that issue, so there has to be reasonable doubt.

Given that logic wouldn't someone that gets in a fight but doesn't throw the first punch have the right to shoot the other guy?

Yes.

Yes, but only if at the time they shot they were reasonably in fear of great bodily harm. Here, Zimmerman can argue that getting wailed on MMA style and having his head smashed against concrete could cause great bodily harm, e.g. damage to his eyes, brain, or bone fractures. If there is any reasonable doubt about whether Zimmerman was reasonably in fear of great bodily harm, then he is not guilty.

If Zimmerman got into a mutual fight or started the fight and then got overpowered and killed Martin then he would be guilty of voluntary manslaughter. But again, the prosecution would need some evidence of who started the fight (which it apparently doesn't have).
(This post was last modified: 06-26-2013 08:20 PM by Jugnaut.)
06-26-2013 08:17 PM
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