There’s a lot of talk about “peer conferences” coming from the “contract conferences” when discussing aligning themselves with a certain other conference. It’s used often by AAC and MWC to try to distinguish themselves among the ”non-contract conferences” and they usually cite a 3/2 split. I agree that there is a 3/2 split, but I KNOW that the 3/2 split is the top 3 and the bottom two not the inverse, which is more often cited.

Someone on the Realignment Board posted a comparison of Institutional profiles, which I found interesting because I’ve been compiling a similar list. I looked at enrollment size but figures vary so much that I used it more as an approximation of the school’s size. I used the Carnegie Foundation Classifications because they are a good measure to gain an accurate Institutional profile. I also used AAU and URA membership to identify leading Research Universities. I did NOT include the “Yelp: College” rankings (aka USNWR), because they are nothing more than a popularity contest and a pay-to-play instrument for colleges buying advertising.

Judging by the actual Institutional Profile it is CLEAR that the MAC, AAC, and MWC are peer conferences. You can go to the Realignment Board thread and see just how disparate these 3 conferences are to the other 2 “non-contract” conferences.

Also in football, the MAC and MWC have sent teams to a BCS Bowl by “busting” their way in and earning a spot. Some AAC members have appeared in BCS Bowl but got there by an AQ bid, which will be disappearing. Many of those AAC teams would not have “busted” the BCS if they had to get there on merit. On the field accomplishments, AGAIN, separate these three from the other two. Many of the MAC, AAC, and MWC teams have rich football history that is lacking from the teams in the other two conferences.

To review, the MAC, AAC, and MWC are similar in Institutional Profile, enrollment size, on-field accomplishments, and football history and distinguish themselves from the other two conferences that make up the “non-contract” group of conferences.

The MAC needs to align itself with the MWC and the AAC in academic and athletic endeavors, i.e. bowls, OOC scheduling, etc.

When discussing PEER CONFERENCES, please be advised that this group for the MAC includes the AAC and the MWC. Thank you.

Carnegie Classifications Breakdown
MAC: 12 Research Universities, 1 Master’s College.
- RU/VH (2), RU/H (9), DRU (1), M/L (1)
AAC: 11 Research Universities, 1 Baccalaureate College.
- RU/VH (6), RU/H (3), DRU (2), Bac/A&S (1)
MWC: 9 Research Universities, 3 Master’s Colleges, 1 Baccalaureate College.
- RU/VH (3), RU/H (5), M/L (3), Bac/A&S (1)

Carnegie Grad Classifications Breakdown
MAC: 11 Comprehensive Doctoral, 2 Doctoral.
- CompDoc/MedVet (3), CompDoc/NMedVet (8), Doc-STEM (2)
AAC: 10 Comprehensive Doctoral, 1 Doctoral, 1 Military Academy.
- CompDoc/MedVet (5), CompDoc/NMedVet (5), Doc-Prof (1), N/A (1)
MWC: 4 Comprehensive Doctoral, 5 Doctoral, 1 Single-Doctoral, 1 Postbaccalaureate, 1 Military Academy.
- CompDoc/MedVet (4), Doc-Prof (3), Doc-STEM (2), S-Doc/Ed (1), Postbac-Comp (1), N/A (1)

Carnegie Selectivity Breakdown
MAC: More Selective (3), Selective (9), Inclusive (1).
AAC: More Selective (5), Selective (7) – 1 “More Selective” is Military Academy.
MWC: More Selective (1), Selective (10), Inclusive (1) – Only “More Selective” is Military Academy.

AAU Members
MAC (1): Buffalo
AAC (1): Tulane
MWC (0): None

URA Members
MAC (2): Buffalo, NIU
AAC (3): Tulane, SMU, Houston
MWC (1): New Mexico

Enrollment Size (Approximate)
MAC: Schools over 20k (12), Avg. 24k
AAC: Schools over 20k (8), Avg. 25k
MWC: Schools over 20k (7), Avg. 21.5k

Carnegie Classifications – Basic Classifications
Doctorate-granting Universities: Includes institutions that awarded at least 20 research doctoral degrees during the update year (excluding doctoral-level degrees that qualify recipients for entry into professional practice, such as the JD, MD, PharmD, DPT, etc.).
- RU/VH: Research Universities (very high research activity)
- RU/H: Research Universities (high research activity)
- DRU: Doctoral/Research Universities

Master's Colleges and Universities: Generally includes institutions that awarded at least 50 master's degrees and fewer than 20 doctoral degrees during the update year (with occasional exceptions – see Methodology).
- Master's/L: Master's Colleges and Universities (larger programs)
- Master's/M: Master's Colleges and Universities (medium programs)
- Master's/S: Master's Colleges and Universities (smaller programs)

Baccalaureate Colleges: Includes institutions where baccalaureate degrees represent at least 10 percent of all undergraduate degrees and where fewer than 50 master's degrees or 20 doctoral degrees were awarded during the update year. (Some institutions above the master's degree threshold are also included; see Methodology.)
- Bac/A&S: Baccalaureate Colleges—Arts & Sciences
- Bac/Diverse: Baccalaureate Colleges—Diverse Fields
- Bac/Assoc: Baccalaureate/Associate's Colleges

Carnegie Classifications – Graduate Instructional Program Classification
CompDoc/MedVet: Comprehensive doctoral with medical/veterinary
These institutions awarded research doctorate degrees in the humanities, social sciences, and STEM* fields, as well as in medicine, dentistry, and/or veterinary medicine. They also offer professional education in other health professions or in fields such as business, education, engineering, law, public policy, or social work.

CompDoc/NMedVet: Comprehensive doctoral (no medical/veterinary)
These institutions awarded research doctorate degrees in the humanities, social sciences, and STEM* fields. They also offer professional education in fields such as business, education, engineering, law, public policy, social work, or health professions other than medicine, dentistry, or veterinary medicine.

Doc/STEM: Doctoral, STEM dominant
These institutions awarded research doctorate degrees in a range of fields, and the largest number of research doctorates were in the STEM* fields. They may also offer professional education at the doctoral level or in fields such as law or medicine.

Doc/Prof: Doctoral, professions dominant
These institutions awarded research doctorate degrees in a range of fields, and the largest number of research doctorates were in professions other than engineering (such as education, health professions, public policy, or social work). They may also offer professional education in law or medicine.

S-Doc/Ed: Single doctoral (education)
These institutions awarded research doctorate degrees in education but not in other fields (they may have more extensive offerings at the master's or professional level).

Postbac-Comp: Postbaccalaureate comprehensive
These institutions awarded master’s degrees in the humanities, social sciences, and STEM* fields, as well as degrees in one or more professional fields.

Research Associations
AAU Member
The Association of American Universities (AAU) is an association of 60 U.S. and two Canadian preeminent public and private research universities, founded in 1900, that focuses on national and institutional issues that are important to research-intensive universities, including funding for research, research and education policy, and graduate and undergraduate education.

URA Member
The Universities Research Association, Inc. (URA) is a consortium of 86 leading research-oriented universities, located primarily in the United States with two other members in Canada and one each in Japan, Italy and the United Kingdom, founded in 1965 under the directive of the U.S. Presidential Advisory Committee and the National Academy of Sciences for management and operation of research facilities in the national interest.

Sound great...where does the MAC sign up?

Not sure why it matters...the pecking order for sports is based on performance on the field and the money you can bring to the table (attendance), not academics or enrollment (although that is related to attendance)...

One thing I left out of the original post was the "Pedigree" category that looks at the history and origin of the University.

Pedigree Breakdown
MAC
1 Flagship (UMass)
1 Private Medical School turn State Flagship (Buffalo)
1 Old Public/Public Ivy (Miami)
1 Old Public (Ohio)
6 Normal Schools (NIU, BGSU, Kent State, WMU, EMU, CentMich)
1 Private Normal turn State Normal (Ball State)
2 Private Schools turn Public (Toledo, Akron)

AAC
1 Agricultural School turn Land Grant Flagship (UConn)
1 Medical School (Tulane)
2 Private Religious (SMU, Tulsa)
1 Normal School (Memphis)
3 Public (Cincinnati, South Florida, Central Florida)
1 Teaching (East Carolina)
1 Private Night School turn Public (Temple)
1 Military Academy (Navy)
1 Junior College (Houston)

MWC
4 Flagships (New Mexico, Hawaii, Nevada, Wyoming)
2 Land Grants (Colorado State, Utah State)
3 Normal Schools (SJSU, SDSU, Fresno)
1 Extension/Branch turn separate University (UNLV)
1 Military Academy (Air Force)
1 Junior College (Boise State)

^ uh-oh, Ohio and NEW YORK-buffalo gonna be mad you didnt include them as flagships

Miami and I think also Ohio were Land Grant schools 60 years before the term "Land Grant Schools" existed.

Miami still owns a considerable amount of land.

(06-10-2013 07:37 PM)Bang Burger Wrote:  Miami and I think also Ohio were Land Grant schools 60 years before the term "Land Grant Schools" existed.

Miami still owns a considerable amount of land.

High rollers like Trump

(06-10-2013 07:37 PM)Bang Burger Wrote:  Miami and I think also Ohio were Land Grant schools 60 years before the term "Land Grant Schools" existed.

Miami still owns a considerable amount of land.

"Land Grant" is old hat. Akron, Toledo, and Ohio are space-grant universities.

(06-10-2013 07:37 PM)Bang Burger Wrote:  Miami and I think also Ohio were Land Grant schools 60 years before the term "Land Grant Schools" existed.

Miami still owns a considerable amount of land.

Exactly. Both Miami and Ohio were established long before the existence of the Morrill Land-Grant Acts. That's why I called both of those schools "Old Publics" with Miami having the added "Public Ivy" distinction. Being an "Old Public" is pretty exclusive company.

(06-10-2013 06:08 PM)TARDledo Wrote:  One thing I left out of the original post was the "Pedigree" category that looks at the history and origin of the University.

Pedigree Breakdown
MAC
1 Flagship (UMass)
1 Private Medical School turn State Flagship (Buffalo)
1 Old Public/Private Ivy (Miami)
1 Old Public (Ohio)
6 Normal Schools (NIU, BGSU, Kent State, WMU, EMU, CentMich)
1 Private Normal turn State Normal (Ball State)
2 Private Schools turn Public (Toledo, Akron)

AAC
1 Agricultural School turn Land Grant Flagship (UConn)
1 Medical School (Tulane)
2 Private Religious (SMU, Tulsa)
3 Public (Cincinnati, South Florida, Central Florida)
1 Normal School (Memphis)
1 Teaching (East Carolina)
1 Private Night School (Temple)
1 Military Academy (Navy)
1 Junior College (Houston)

MWC
4 Flagships (New Mexico, Hawaii, Nevada, Wyoming)
2 Land Grants (Colorado State, Utah State)
3 Normal Schools (SJSU, SDSU, Fresno)
1 Extension/Branch turn separate University (UNLV)
1 Military Academy (Air Force)
1 Junior College (Boise State)

Ball State doesn't recognize a link between the earlier schools at its site and is not related at all to them except via the original campus building which was purchased out of bankruptcy.


Also, CUSA should stand fairly well against at least the MWC and pretty close to the MAC, and Rice is head and shoulders above any other Go5 school.

2 RU/VH, 8 RU/H, 2 DRU, 2 M/L

edit:

I went ahead and did the rest of the breakdown:

CompDoc/NMedVet: Comprehensive doctoral, no med/vet- 7
Doc/STEM: Doctoral, STEM dominant- 1
Doc/Prof: Doctoral, professional dominant- 5
Postbac-Comp: Postbaccalaureate comprehensive- 1


more selective- 1
selective- 11
inclusive- 2

AAU- 1
URA- 2

schools over 20K- 9
average- 18,512*


*heavily skewed by Rice's enrollment of 6,000. Removing just Rice, the average becomes 24,771; however, to properly cut the sample, FIU also needs to be removed which puts the average at 22,838

(06-10-2013 07:41 PM)Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Wrote:  

(06-10-2013 07:37 PM)Bang Burger Wrote:  Miami and I think also Ohio were Land Grant schools 60 years before the term "Land Grant Schools" existed.

Miami still owns a considerable amount of land.

High rollers like Trump

That's not fair. MiamiU only shut down once, over a century ago, not multiple times in the past few decades like Trump.

The following speaks specifically to the similarities in football history/profile that I mentioned in the original post.

At least one AAC poster gets it (link):

(07-24-2013 06:52 PM)CougarRed Wrote:  There are 10 conferences.

From the Group of 5, there are 3 leagues where 75%+ of the members have been playing the highest level of college football since D-1A was created in 1978:

MAC
MWC
American

Out of the SunBelt and C-USA combined, only Rice, Southern Miss, UTEP, NM St and ULaLa have been playing the top level of college football continuously since 1978. You aren't losing much in the history and tradition of college football if those 2 leagues are not invited.

Accordingly, I hope the MAC, MWC and American (along with BYU and Army) band together and demand to be grandfathered in based on history, assuming we are willing to commit to the new Divisional structure.

For example, currently schools must sponsor at least 14 sports to be a FBS football program. I can see that number jumping to 20 or more to stay upper division football. See this article.

Of the 65 teams in the Power 5 conferences, 23 sponsor 16-19 sports. 26 sponsor 20-23 sports. And only 16 sponsor 24+ sports.

He goes into a little more detail here.

(07-24-2013 01:51 PM)CougarRed Wrote:  The division I, II, and III structure was created in 1973. Division I-A and I-AA started in 1978.

Originally, there were ~140 teams in I-A. In 1982, it dropped to ~114. And in 1986, it dropped again to the 104-108 range where it stayed for nearly 10 years.

In 1995, I-A membership started to swell, and today there are ~125 FBS schools.

Aside from the power 5 (assuming the big 12 is the successor to the Big 8), the only conference that has been division I-A every year is the MAC.

There are 102 schools that have played at the highest level of college football continuously since 1978...

...Historically speaking, if the power 5 want to create a new football division, then the MAC, MWC and American should be given the option to join in addition to Army and BYU.

This would get I-A or FBS back to 104 teams, the smallest it ever was in the mid 1980s.

I suggested something similar here.

(05-30-2013 09:19 PM)TARDledo Wrote:  Eight 14-team conferences make for 112 teams.

The contract conferences are at 64 teams. MAC, MWC, AAC, plus 3 Independents of Notre Dame, BYU, Army are 40. That's 104 teams, leaving room for up to 8 more teams.

The CUSA and Sun Belt can drop to FCS since they are full of FCS call ups anyway. Just need to bring up the few teams stuck there now that belong with the group of 112 (Southern Miss, Rice).

Eight Conferences, Eight Conference Champions, Eight Playoff spots.

It's hilarious and SAD that both of his threads got ZERO responses (Don't look behind the curtain and see that the AAC is no better than the MAC).

Once again, MAC ≥ MWC/AAC.

"For example, currently schools must sponsor at least 14 sports to be a FBS football program. I can see that number jumping to 20 or more to stay upper division football."

This is how I can see the power leagues weed out the lesser leagues. With all the money that is coming in through TV contracts, the teams already in the Big 5 that fall below the 20 (or 24) limit, would have the resources to add programs to get to that limit.

But what about the MAC? It seems like it would be tough for most schools to reach that mark.

I looked up each MAC school and the number of sports they sponsor (according to the official sites).

1. Eastern Michigan - 19
2. Akron - 18
2. Ball State - 18
2. Bowling Green - 18
2. Buffalo - 18
2. Miami - 18
7. Kent State - 16
7. Northern Illinois - 16
10. Central Michigan - 15
10. Ohio - 15 (nice to see the "flagship" leading the way)
10. Toledo - 15
10. Western Michigan - 15

*UMass also offers 19

If the minimum is raised to 24, is it realistic to think that any MAC school school would be able to add between 5-9 sports?

Even 20 will be tough for for everybody, especially outside of EMU, Akron, Ball State, Bowling Green and Miami. I just don't see where the money will come from to support so many additional teams. ... even with a bigger football payout if the MAC gets in with the big boys, the money is still going to be a fraction of what the Big Ten, Big 12, PAC 12, ACC and SEC schools are going to rake.

I didn't look up the Mountain West, AAC, Sun Belt or CUSA schools, but I imagine most fall below the 20 (or 24 mark) too.

If they were to put a number on the amount of sports would it fall on the conference to sponsor 20/24 or the individual schools? It should fall on the conferences themselves which then would cause problems even for the big boys. Only the B1G and PAC-12 offer 24 sports and the SEC would have to add a sport just to get to 20. Looking at the PAC-12 list of sports it makes me wonder who they compete against in most of them. If the MAC needed to get to 24 I would recommend just from looking the other conferences sports list would be bowling and m/w rifling. Each rifling team would have 14 athletes while the bowling team would have 10.

MAC - 21
B12 - 20
B10 - 28
P12 - 33
ACC - 21
SEC - 19
CUSA - 18
MWC - 18
AAC - 21
SB - 17

Agreed that MAC ≥ MWC/AAC.

We need to rebrand, start a campaign, something to shake off any perceptions from days gone by.

(08-05-2013 01:34 PM)NIUfilmmaker Wrote:  Agreed that MAC ≥ MWC/AAC.

We need to rebrand, start a campaign, something to shake off any perceptions from days gone by.

No, the MAC needs to build loyalty from within.

I wrote back in 1994-95 that MAC teams should be working to build up their fan bases from students and alumni. I said they should have started that 20 years prior, but if they didn't do it "now" they'd have the same problems in 20 years.

*sigh*

(08-05-2013 02:59 AM)Wadszip Wrote:  "For example, currently schools must sponsor at least 14 sports to be a FBS football program. I can see that number jumping to 20 or more to stay upper division football."

This is how I can see the power leagues weed out the lesser leagues. With all the money that is coming in through TV contracts, the teams already in the Big 5 that fall below the 20 (or 24) limit, would have the resources to add programs to get to that limit.

But what about the MAC? It seems like it would be tough for most schools to reach that mark.

I looked up each MAC school and the number of sports they sponsor (according to the official sites).

1. Eastern Michigan - 19
2. Akron - 18
2. Ball State - 18
2. Bowling Green - 18
2. Buffalo - 18
2. Miami - 18
7. Kent State - 16
7. Northern Illinois - 16
10. Central Michigan - 15
10. Ohio - 15 (nice to see the "flagship" leading the way)
10. Toledo - 15
10. Western Michigan - 15

*UMass also offers 19

If the minimum is raised to 24, is it realistic to think that any MAC school school would be able to add between 5-9 sports?

Even 20 will be tough for for everybody, especially outside of EMU, Akron, Ball State, Bowling Green and Miami. I just don't see where the money will come from to support so many additional teams. ... even with a bigger football payout if the MAC gets in with the big boys, the money is still going to be a fraction of what the Big Ten, Big 12, PAC 12, ACC and SEC schools are going to rake.

I didn't look up the Mountain West, AAC, Sun Belt or CUSA schools, but I imagine most fall below the 20 (or 24 mark) too.

What the heck, more mis-information. We have 21 sports down from 27 in the past decade plus.

C'mon, flagship...we expect better from you!

(08-05-2013 08:38 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(08-05-2013 02:59 AM)Wadszip Wrote:  "For example, currently schools must sponsor at least 14 sports to be a FBS football program. I can see that number jumping to 20 or more to stay upper division football."

This is how I can see the power leagues weed out the lesser leagues. With all the money that is coming in through TV contracts, the teams already in the Big 5 that fall below the 20 (or 24) limit, would have the resources to add programs to get to that limit.

But what about the MAC? It seems like it would be tough for most schools to reach that mark.

I looked up each MAC school and the number of sports they sponsor (according to the official sites).

1. Eastern Michigan - 19
2. Akron - 18
2. Ball State - 18
2. Bowling Green - 18
2. Buffalo - 18
2. Miami - 18
7. Kent State - 16
7. Northern Illinois - 16
10. Central Michigan - 15
10. Ohio - 15 (nice to see the "flagship" leading the way)
10. Toledo - 15
10. Western Michigan - 15

*UMass also offers 19

If the minimum is raised to 24, is it realistic to think that any MAC school school would be able to add between 5-9 sports?

Even 20 will be tough for for everybody, especially outside of EMU, Akron, Ball State, Bowling Green and Miami. I just don't see where the money will come from to support so many additional teams. ... even with a bigger football payout if the MAC gets in with the big boys, the money is still going to be a fraction of what the Big Ten, Big 12, PAC 12, ACC and SEC schools are going to rake.

I didn't look up the Mountain West, AAC, Sun Belt or CUSA schools, but I imagine most fall below the 20 (or 24 mark) too.

What the heck, more mis-information. We have 21 sports down from 27 in the past decade plus.

Don't blame me, blame your athletic department for the "misinformation". I took that straight from umassathletics.com.

I guess if you count indoor and outdoor track and field (men's and women's) as two seperate sports (does that count?), then UMass has 21.

BTW, I looked up the AAC and Mountain West (and from that, I won't waste my time on the Sun Belt or CUSA ... outside of Marshall, which sponsors 15 sports).

Both leagues look a lot like the MAC:

AAC
1. Navy - 26
2. Connecticut -22
2. Temple - 22
4. Memphis - 18
5. Cincinnati - 17
5. South Florida - 17
7. SMU - 16
7. Tulsa - 16
9. Central Florida - 15
9. Houston - 15
9. Tulane - 15
12. East Carolina - 14

Mountain West
1. Air Force - 27
2. New Mexico - 19
3. UNLV - 18 (that counts men's and women's cheer. Serious question, does that count?)
3. Fresno State - 18
3. San Diego State - 18
6. Boise State - 17
6. San Jose State - 17
8. Nevada-Reno - 16
9. Colorado State - 15
9. Wyoming - 15
11. Utah State -12 (how is this possible?)

The service academies and private school Temple skews things. Take those out and the only public school in any of the three leagues (MAC, AAC, Mountain West) that is above 20 is Connecticut, which I don't think anybody will argue is next in line for a spot with the big boys.

Overall, the MAC is pretty much equal to the Mountain West in terms of schools that offer the most sports. The MAC is not that far off from the AAC, either, especially if you only compare public schools.

The eye-opener was Cincinnati only offering 17 sports. Three Ohio MAC schools (Akron, BG and Miami) offer more sports. I never would've guessed that without looking it up. Then again, I never would've guessed "the flagship" only offered15.

EDIT: Based on average No. of sports, it breaks down like this:

AAC-17.75
MTW- 17.45
MAC - 16.75 (16.92 counting UMass)

However, take the service academies out of the AAC (Navy) and MTW (Air Force), it looks like this:
AAC- 17
MAC - 16.75 (16.92 counting UMass)
MTW- 16.5

Or how about Army joining the MAC? (I know it's been discussed)
AAC-17.75
MTW- 17.45
MAC- 17.42 (assuming UMass and Army would join full-time to make it 14).