My brother graduated second in his hs class and went to Rice.
One of his best friends was the son of the pastor of the local Christian church. He graduated third and went to TCU.

(06-10-2013 08:35 AM)RiceDad Wrote:  The original question was what is the attraction of TCU that would cause kids in a small town in Ohio to chose to go there. My response was that from an academic perspective, I thought there was no attraction. I had no animosity in my feelings, only indifference. I was trying to say that spending $100MM on a football stadium, but remaining a third or fourth tier university academically seemed like messed up priorities to me. If the question is,"What is the attraction of the TCU's athletic program", then that is a different question, IMO.

Yes, but your specific statement was, "Don't think anything about TCU offers a role model for Rice" (emphasis mine). That would include athletics as well. And while I don't see much for Rice to emulate about TCU's academic model, and I have no reason to believe that Rice is even considering emulating anything from TCU academically, I think we could definitely learn a few lessons from their athletic program.

First of all, there's nothing wrong with young people going to TCU. Certainly an achievement, and there are much worse things to do after high school.

Second, before becoming a grad student at Rice, I spent a few years as the college and career counselor at a high school in San Diego, and some schools are just much better at marketing to high school students than others. Mostly this comes down to targeted online ads, sending materials to schools, and commercials often paired with their schools' national sporting events. TCU was one of them. Others that stood out in this regard were Univ. of Florida, Miami (FL), NYU, Boston U, Carleton, Northern Arizona... and maybe some others I'm forgetting.

(06-09-2013 05:43 PM)Wiessman Wrote:  I knew two grad students at Rice that went to TCU for undergrad. Let's just say that they didn't measure up to the undergrads at Rice, and that is putting it nicely.

In all fairness, my one TCU undergrad friend (Phi Beta Kappa) did measure up at Rice and is now a tenured professor of Philosophy.

(06-10-2013 11:46 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-10-2013 08:35 AM)RiceDad Wrote:  The original question was what is the attraction of TCU that would cause kids in a small town in Ohio to chose to go there. My response was that from an academic perspective, I thought there was no attraction. I had no animosity in my feelings, only indifference. I was trying to say that spending $100MM on a football stadium, but remaining a third or fourth tier university academically seemed like messed up priorities to me. If the question is,"What is the attraction of the TCU's athletic program", then that is a different question, IMO.

Yes, but your specific statement was, "Don't think anything about TCU offers a role model for Rice" (emphasis mine). That would include athletics as well. And while I don't see much for Rice to emulate about TCU's academic model, and I have no reason to believe that Rice is even considering emulating anything from TCU academically, I think we could definitely learn a few lessons from their athletic program.

I do agree with you on that. Often, a conversation in this type of format is a bit more challenging than a verbal one.

(06-10-2013 09:58 AM)TCU2002 Wrote:  Wow, massive lack of charity here (which is not surprising).

What's the case for TCU? Guess what, it is not "top 20" academics, and there's not room in all the entering classes of such schools for all the capable students who might thrive in strong, private university environment. TCU does offer a private university experience in a unique city with incredibly updated living and learning facilities, the major college sports scene, and a wide range of academic programs that are plenty strong (even if not "elite"). If you wanted to study Business, Music, or Journalism, TCU could be a destination school. If you want the liberal arts, solid science/Pre-med prep, education, nursing, then TCU will provide a very solid experience with faculty who will go to bat for you, even if it is not "best" at these things.

Are there some vapid, shallow students attending TCU? Sure. But, lots of serious students too. The folks I knew best have gone on to great success in academic, professional school, and career. One of my roommates and best friends (groomsman at my wedding) was a Goldwater Scholar and earned his Ph.D in Mathematics from Rice.

Much of this was tongue in cheek, 2002.

(06-10-2013 01:03 PM)RiceDad Wrote:  Often, a conversation in this type of format is a bit more challenging than a verbal one.

Indeed -- words to live by! That is one reason that, in "normal" (i.e. ordinary business and personal contexts), I always encourage people to just pick up the phone and call. The good ol' telephone is a great way to avoid misunderstandings and to get on common ground. But for whatever reason, some folks seem to really resist talking -- and it's not purely a generational thing either.

I know that lawyers have their own questionable practices, but one good thing is that they do return each other's phone calls.

(06-10-2013 01:03 PM)RiceDad Wrote:  

(06-10-2013 11:46 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-10-2013 08:35 AM)RiceDad Wrote:  The original question was what is the attraction of TCU that would cause kids in a small town in Ohio to chose to go there. My response was that from an academic perspective, I thought there was no attraction. I had no animosity in my feelings, only indifference. I was trying to say that spending $100MM on a football stadium, but remaining a third or fourth tier university academically seemed like messed up priorities to me. If the question is,"What is the attraction of the TCU's athletic program", then that is a different question, IMO.

Yes, but your specific statement was, "Don't think anything about TCU offers a role model for Rice" (emphasis mine). That would include athletics as well. And while I don't see much for Rice to emulate about TCU's academic model, and I have no reason to believe that Rice is even considering emulating anything from TCU academically, I think we could definitely learn a few lessons from their athletic program.

I do agree with you on that. Often, a conversation in this type of format is a bit more challenging than a verbal one.

Fair enough. Works for me.

Our family is new to the Rice community as our child is going to be an entering freshman in the fall. We live in the Midwest and I can tell you that TCU has been incredibly aggressive in recruiting students here. I know many who have been offered merit money and they are basically trying to make TCU the same cost as our flagship state university. I know how much college mail from TCU that our child received and it was absolutely among the most. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't average at least one piece of mail per week for more than two years. They are trying to recruit the top students with even more generous merit scholarships but they have been very active and successful in recruiting the good and very good students. It seems to me that they are trying to raise their profile by creating a more national student body. If successful they will be able to get better and better students over time.

First, I think TCU is usually ranked around 100 by USN&WR. I don't know what the tier breaks are, but it seems to me that this is well above third or fourth tier.

Second, if their marketing does bring in a higher (scholastically) class of student, this will eventually help their rankings. 1/GIGO.

Third, they may have been lucky in the timing of their Barnett Shale money - the Shale is beginning to play out. Give them credit for not wasting their windfall.

Fourth, I was stuck by the OP's notice of TWO TCU banners where there were none before. Lots of times, once student A decides on a school, other students are influenced to follow. Thus my BFFs comment.

I was impressed by the Amon Carter rebuild project. Having been at the old stadium many times, the new one is definitely a step up.

(06-10-2013 06:07 PM)Otts Wrote:  Our family is new to the Rice community as our child is going to be an entering freshman in the fall. We live in the Midwest and I can tell you that TCU has been incredibly aggressive in recruiting students here. I know many who have been offered merit money and they are basically trying to make TCU the same cost as our flagship state university. I know how much college mail from TCU that our child received and it was absolutely among the most. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't average at least one piece of mail per week for more than two years. They are trying to recruit the top students with even more generous merit scholarships but they have been very active and successful in recruiting the good and very good students. It seems to me that they are trying to raise their profile by creating a more national student body. If successful they will be able to get better and better students over time.

Thank you, Otts..and welcome to the Parliament!
I agree with you. I live in a "hotbed" of TCU alums. TCU is very aggressive at all of the area high schools in recruiting very good academic students..AND, they are gradually displacing UT and A&M in recruiting quality athletes. not just in football..but, especially baseball

Kind of a separate but not too off-base question here -- what percentage of high school kids these days will choose UT and what percentage will choose A&M? I know that it's the top 8 pct of each high school class that gets into UT and it's either 8 or 10 pct for A&M. I was struck by our local high school in the number of honors graduates who chose UT over A&M. Maybe it's just one of those years where it's more UT families at the top of the class, but I had thought A&M was closing the perception gap over UT.

BTW, I don't think we had any kids going to Rice this year. One was accepted but couldn't afford it, even with the scholarship aid. But I think that's unusual too and I would imagine that on average, we send 1-2 to Rice a year (more on the years where we have some athletes going there).

(06-10-2013 06:07 PM)Otts Wrote:  Our family is new to the Rice community as our child is going to be an entering freshman in the fall. We live in the Midwest and I can tell you that TCU has been incredibly aggressive in recruiting students here. I know many who have been offered merit money and they are basically trying to make TCU the same cost as our flagship state university. I know how much college mail from TCU that our child received and it was absolutely among the most. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't average at least one piece of mail per week for more than two years. They are trying to recruit the top students with even more generous merit scholarships but they have been very active and successful in recruiting the good and very good students. It seems to me that they are trying to raise their profile by creating a more national student body. If successful they will be able to get better and better students over time.

Welcome.

How heavily was your son/daughter 'recruited' by Rice?
What influenced their decision to select Rice?

(06-11-2013 07:07 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  Kind of a separate but not too off-base question here -- what percentage of high school kids these days will choose UT and what percentage will choose A&M? I know that it's the top 8 pct of each high school class that gets into UT and it's either 8 or 10 pct for A&M. I was struck by our local high school in the number of honors graduates who chose UT over A&M. Maybe it's just one of those years where it's more UT families at the top of the class, but I had thought A&M was closing the perception gap over UT.

BTW, I don't think we had any kids going to Rice this year. One was accepted but couldn't afford it, even with the scholarship aid. But I think that's unusual too and I would imagine that on average, we send 1-2 to Rice a year (more on the years where we have some athletes going there).

My son just graduated in a class of 110. This school is the top school in HISD (CVHS). All classes are AP/pre-AP. They sent 2 kids to Rice this year, probably 5 to UT, and only 1 or 2 to aTm, 1(?)to TCU. But what struck me was the number of kids choosing to go to UT-Dallas. I think there were 5.

(06-10-2013 05:46 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-10-2013 12:44 AM)RiceDad Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 11:40 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 11:32 PM)RiceDad Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 11:21 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  From this thread, I gather that all TCU has going for it is plenty of money, successful marketing, and successful sports, and so far all it has to show for all that is increased interest around the country. Which sort of reminds of Buddy Ryan's criticism of Cris Carter: "All he does is catch touchdowns."

So, George, surely you don't think TCU is the model we should pursue.....they may be doing a good marketing job.......for a Tier 3pr 4 uni!

I think the combination of plenty of money, successful marketing, and successful sports is an excellent model for a university to pursue. The fact that in a particular case those attributes are on top of a thinner academic foundation does not make them attributes we should look down on. (And even in that particular case, we may find before long that those attributes have led to a strengthening of the foundation as well.)

Really? Don't think anything about TCU offers a role model for Rice.

Why such animosity toward TCU?

I certainly don't think we can--or should--do everything the way they have, but that certainly doesn't mean there aren't plenty of things we could learn from them. They had a vision, lined up support, and made it happen. It helped a bunch the the Barnett shale came in and a bunch of it was under land belonging to their alumni, but without the vision and commitment to get it done that would not have mattered.

I think there's a hell of a lot that we could learn from TCU, and that we're idiots if we don't learn from them as well as Boise and South Florida and Cincinnati, and earlier Florida State, and even UH and SMU. You take any program that's been worse off than we were at any time in the last 50 years and is better off than we are today, and there are lessons there that we can and should learn. That's what it means to adopt "best practices."

Rice + TCU "best practices" = Stanford

(06-11-2013 08:47 AM)Owl1991 Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 11:40 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  I think the combination of plenty of money, successful marketing, and successful sports is an excellent model for a university to pursue. The fact that in a particular case those attributes are on top of a thinner academic foundation does not make them attributes we should look down on. (And even in that particular case, we may find before long that those attributes have led to a strengthening of the foundation as well.)

Rice + TCU "best practices" = Stanford

Agreed.

(06-11-2013 08:05 AM)JSA Wrote:  

(06-10-2013 06:07 PM)Otts Wrote:  Our family is new to the Rice community as our child is going to be an entering freshman in the fall. We live in the Midwest and I can tell you that TCU has been incredibly aggressive in recruiting students here. I know many who have been offered merit money and they are basically trying to make TCU the same cost as our flagship state university. I know how much college mail from TCU that our child received and it was absolutely among the most. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't average at least one piece of mail per week for more than two years. They are trying to recruit the top students with even more generous merit scholarships but they have been very active and successful in recruiting the good and very good students. It seems to me that they are trying to raise their profile by creating a more national student body. If successful they will be able to get better and better students over time.

Welcome.

How heavily was your son/daughter 'recruited' by Rice?
What influenced their decision to select Rice?

Candidly, and I don't mean this negatively at all, Rice did very little personal recruiting. I do not think she got any materials from Rice until she put herself on the mailing list. We live in a state where Rice is far from a brand name. The best thing Rice did was to participate in a traveling college fair with Brown, Columbia, the University of Chicago and Dartmouth. While my wife and I were aware of Rice and know it to be a great school, that roadshow made a good impression with many top students. While it shouldn't be this way, it gave Rice validation among some families who were unaware of Rice's academic pedigree. We initially went because Brown was at the top of her college list but left that session with a much greater awareness of Rice. That session motivated her to learn more. When she did interact, however, Rice did everything right. Her search initially focused east but all the interactions made her very at ease with Rice. She loved the undergraduate focus and undergraduate research opportunities. When she visited the students treated her fabulously and she loved the residential college system and felt she would fit in immediately. She thought Rice had the serious academic environment she wanted without the pretentiousness of many of the east coast schools. At the end of the day she decided to apply Early Decision and hasn't regretted it for a moment since. She cannot wait to start.

Great choice by your daughter. I think (and hope) she'll find it be everything she expects.

It's been almost 20 years now, but I went through a very similar process learning about, liking, and ultimately choosing Rice. One of the things that caught my eye was Rice's perennial place at the top of Money magazine's college "Best Buys" list. That was great publicity, particularly (in my mind) with the type of student who thrives at Rice. Too bad that no longer exists (although we may not top it anymore, given the tuition increases of late).

If there's one non-obvious thing I'd recommend to your daughter, it's to give Houston a chance. I spent 4 years behind the hedges thinking of Houston as the hot, ugly, always-under-construction ocean surrounding our beautiful island of a campus. Within a year or so of actually living in the city after graduation, I found I liked it very much. Later, after a year working in Paris, my wife and I decided Houston is where we actually wanted to be. And it's been our home base ever since.

(06-11-2013 07:07 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  Kind of a separate but not too off-base question here -- what percentage of high school kids these days will choose UT and what percentage will choose A&M? I know that it's the top 8 pct of each high school class that gets into UT and it's either 8 or 10 pct for A&M. I was struck by our local high school in the number of honors graduates who chose UT over A&M. Maybe it's just one of those years where it's more UT families at the top of the class, but I had thought A&M was closing the perception gap over UT.

My wife is a hs guidance counselor so this is dinner table talk. My perception is as follows

1. The auto admit threshold is the same for both schools. I believe it is top 8%

2. A&M admits a larger freshman class than UT

3. I believe more auto-admit students choose UT than A&M

4. The net result is that UT is substantially more selective for admission than is A&M for students who are not auto-admits.

5. UT offers an alternate path which is to go to UTSA or UT-Dallas. If you earn a 3.2 in freshman year, you are automatically in to Austin as a soph.

6. This strikes me as a cynical but statically certain belief that a huge number of the auto-admit freshmen who matriculate to Austin will not return as sophomores.