(06-08-2013 04:04 PM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 03:24 PM)bmorex Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 01:00 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 07:44 AM)bmorex Wrote:  

(06-07-2013 08:42 PM)ivet Wrote:  I use to think like this but you have to factor in the long term impact of not going over 12 right now. What if the A-10 becomes just as competitive and has their schools on lock for 20 years?

How do they have their schools on lock? A large TV contract? Hasn't happened in the past, even when the league had Temple and Xavier. An exit fee? Right now it's $1M. I just don't see SLU, UD, UMass, etc. voting to increase an exit fee if they themselves are looking to leave the conference.

The A10 surely could become more competitive and that is definitely a risk. But I don't think the conference could lock down its schools with ease like you suggest.

I am not going to discount anything especially looking at all the reshuffling that has happened the past few years and these ridiculous TV contracts that are being handed out.

The league signed an 8 year TV deal just last fall. It was worth $40M, or about $350k per team per year in a 14-team league.

Talk about a short-sighted move. Their TV deal is more internet streams.

Yeah, that deal is bad. The MVC's is worse but the A-10 is the premier mid-major basketball only league now, you'd think they could get someone like NBC sports network which has NHL, Ivy league football and CAA basketball to pony up atleast a million a team....

(06-08-2013 03:24 PM)bmorex Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 01:00 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 07:44 AM)bmorex Wrote:  

(06-07-2013 08:42 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(06-07-2013 07:30 PM)bmorex Wrote:  It only works if FOX wants to pony up more money. The 10 schools aren't (and shouldn't) going to expand if the pie is cut split smaller and smaller.

I use to think like this but you have to factor in the long term impact of not going over 12 right now. What if the A-10 becomes just as competitive and has their schools on lock for 20 years?

How do they have their schools on lock? A large TV contract? Hasn't happened in the past, even when the league had Temple and Xavier. An exit fee? Right now it's $1M. I just don't see SLU, UD, UMass, etc. voting to increase an exit fee if they themselves are looking to leave the conference.

The A10 surely could become more competitive and that is definitely a risk. But I don't think the conference could lock down its schools with ease like you suggest.

I am not going to discount anything especially looking at all the reshuffling that has happened the past few years and these ridiculous TV contracts that are being handed out.

The league signed an 8 year TV deal just last fall. It was worth $40M, or about $350k per team per year in a 14-team league.

Another thing I learned from this conference realignment, current contracts really don't mean anything. But maybe I'm just being pessimistic but seriously I wouldn't mind being a 12 team (minimum) conference.

(06-08-2013 04:07 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:04 PM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 03:24 PM)bmorex Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 01:00 PM)ivet Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 07:44 AM)bmorex Wrote:  How do they have their schools on lock? A large TV contract? Hasn't happened in the past, even when the league had Temple and Xavier. An exit fee? Right now it's $1M. I just don't see SLU, UD, UMass, etc. voting to increase an exit fee if they themselves are looking to leave the conference.

The A10 surely could become more competitive and that is definitely a risk. But I don't think the conference could lock down its schools with ease like you suggest.

I am not going to discount anything especially looking at all the reshuffling that has happened the past few years and these ridiculous TV contracts that are being handed out.

The league signed an 8 year TV deal just last fall. It was worth $40M, or about $350k per team per year in a 14-team league.

Talk about a short-sighted move. Their TV deal is more internet streams.

Yeah, that deal is bad. The MVC's is worse but the A-10 is the premier mid-major basketball only league now, you'd think they could get someone like NBC sports network which has NHL, Ivy league football and CAA basketball to pony up atleast a million a team....

The problem with the Atlantic Ten is that in its entire history, UMass '96 is the only team coming out of that league to make it to the Final Four. As they've added teams like Butler, VCU, & George Mason, who have made it to the Final four, they haven't been there long enough to boost the league's national profile, which is what they need to create demand for a TV contract.

Contrast that league with the revamped Big East in which new addition Butler is just one of 4 teams to have made the Final Four since 2003. Add to that the fact that the A10 doesn't have anyone who has won a national championship in the modern era and only LaSalle who has ever won one. In contrast, Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette are all past national champs in the modern era. In addition, St. John's, Seton Hall, and DePaul won NIT's back when those mattered. That kind of history makes the Big East full of teams that are house hold names, which is precisely what's lacking in the A10.

(06-09-2013 06:32 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:07 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:04 PM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 03:24 PM)bmorex Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 01:00 PM)ivet Wrote:  I am not going to discount anything especially looking at all the reshuffling that has happened the past few years and these ridiculous TV contracts that are being handed out.

The league signed an 8 year TV deal just last fall. It was worth $40M, or about $350k per team per year in a 14-team league.

Talk about a short-sighted move. Their TV deal is more internet streams.

Yeah, that deal is bad. The MVC's is worse but the A-10 is the premier mid-major basketball only league now, you'd think they could get someone like NBC sports network which has NHL, Ivy league football and CAA basketball to pony up atleast a million a team....

The problem with the Atlantic Ten is that in its entire history, UMass '96 is the only team coming out of that league to make it to the Final Four. As they've added teams like Butler, VCU, & George Mason, who have made it to the Final four, they haven't been there long enough to boost the league's national profile, which is what they need to create demand for a TV contract.

Contrast that league with the revamped Big East in which new addition Butler is just one of 4 teams to have made the Final Four since 2003. Add to that the fact that the A10 doesn't have anyone who has won a national championship in the modern era and only LaSalle who has ever won one. In contrast, Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette are all past national champs in the modern era. In addition, St. John's, Seton Hall, and DePaul won NIT's back when those mattered. That kind of history makes the Big East full of teams that are house hold names, which is precisely what's lacking in the A10.

The A-10 lacks one other key quality: A sense of their worth. 350K a school for a TV deal is pathetic. If the Big East takes 2 more A-10 teams, it's curtains for the league in terms of national relevance. They have no one to blame but themselves.

(06-09-2013 06:32 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:07 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:04 PM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 03:24 PM)bmorex Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 01:00 PM)ivet Wrote:  I am not going to discount anything especially looking at all the reshuffling that has happened the past few years and these ridiculous TV contracts that are being handed out.

The league signed an 8 year TV deal just last fall. It was worth $40M, or about $350k per team per year in a 14-team league.

Talk about a short-sighted move. Their TV deal is more internet streams.

Yeah, that deal is bad. The MVC's is worse but the A-10 is the premier mid-major basketball only league now, you'd think they could get someone like NBC sports network which has NHL, Ivy league football and CAA basketball to pony up atleast a million a team....

The problem with the Atlantic Ten is that in its entire history, UMass '96 is the only team coming out of that league to make it to the Final Four. As they've added teams like Butler, VCU, & George Mason, who have made it to the Final four, they haven't been there long enough to boost the league's national profile, which is what they need to create demand for a TV contract.

Contrast that league with the revamped Big East in which new addition Butler is just one of 4 teams to have made the Final Four since 2003. Add to that the fact that the A10 doesn't have anyone who has won a national championship in the modern era and only LaSalle who has ever won one. In contrast, Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette are all past national champs in the modern era. In addition, St. John's, Seton Hall, and DePaul won NIT's back when those mattered. That kind of history makes the Big East full of teams that are house hold names, which is precisely what's lacking in the A10.

How did you forget the Friars and their NIT championships back when that mattered?!!!

(06-09-2013 10:14 AM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 06:32 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:07 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:04 PM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 03:24 PM)bmorex Wrote:  The league signed an 8 year TV deal just last fall. It was worth $40M, or about $350k per team per year in a 14-team league.

Talk about a short-sighted move. Their TV deal is more internet streams.

Yeah, that deal is bad. The MVC's is worse but the A-10 is the premier mid-major basketball only league now, you'd think they could get someone like NBC sports network which has NHL, Ivy league football and CAA basketball to pony up atleast a million a team....

The problem with the Atlantic Ten is that in its entire history, UMass '96 is the only team coming out of that league to make it to the Final Four. As they've added teams like Butler, VCU, & George Mason, who have made it to the Final Four, they haven't been there long enough to boost the league's national profile, which is what they need to create demand for a TV contract.

Contrast that league with the revamped Big East in which new addition Butler is just one of 4 teams to have made the Final Four since 2003. Add to that the fact that the A10 doesn't have anyone who has won a national championship in the modern era and only LaSalle who has ever won one. In contrast, Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette are all past national champs in the modern era. In addition, St. John's, Seton Hall, and DePaul won NIT's back when those mattered. That kind of history makes the Big East full of teams that are house hold names, which is precisely what's lacking in the A10.

How did you forget the Friars and their NIT championships back when that mattered?!!!

I agree that those NIT championships from the early 1960's mattered. An NIT championship then was probably the equivalent of a Final Four team and in some cases the NIT champ was clearly better than some of the Final Four teams. However, by that time I don't think that anyone would make the case that the NIT champ was on par with the NCAA champ.

The earlier NIT championships that I mentioned put those teams in the conversation for national championship. In fact the 1944 St. John's team could easily claim that the NIT tournament that year was in fact the national championship tournament since it included NCAA champ Utah. In 1953, Indiana and Seton Hall finished 1-2 in the polls and both had been ranked #1 in the polls at some point in the season. Seton Hall (31-2) had the better record. I'm not a big fan of resolving these things by a vote or a poll. When #1 and #2 don't get to face off on the court, that seems to me to be as clear a case for co-champions as you'll find.

I admire your enthusiasm for sticking up for Friar Power! No doubt that those 2 NIT championships were in fact significant and put the Friars on the map.

(06-09-2013 10:09 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 06:32 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:07 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:04 PM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 03:24 PM)bmorex Wrote:  The league signed an 8 year TV deal just last fall. It was worth $40M, or about $350k per team per year in a 14-team league.

Talk about a short-sighted move. Their TV deal is more internet streams.

Yeah, that deal is bad. The MVC's is worse but the A-10 is the premier mid-major basketball only league now, you'd think they could get someone like NBC sports network which has NHL, Ivy league football and CAA basketball to pony up atleast a million a team....

The problem with the Atlantic Ten is that in its entire history, UMass '96 is the only team coming out of that league to make it to the Final Four. As they've added teams like Butler, VCU, & George Mason, who have made it to the Final four, they haven't been there long enough to boost the league's national profile, which is what they need to create demand for a TV contract.

Contrast that league with the revamped Big East in which new addition Butler is just one of 4 teams to have made the Final Four since 2003. Add to that the fact that the A10 doesn't have anyone who has won a national championship in the modern era and only LaSalle who has ever won one. In contrast, Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette are all past national champs in the modern era. In addition, St. John's, Seton Hall, and DePaul won NIT's back when those mattered. That kind of history makes the Big East full of teams that are house hold names, which is precisely what's lacking in the A10.

The A-10 lacks one other key quality: A sense of their worth. 350K a school for a TV deal is pathetic. If the Big East takes 2 more A-10 teams, it's curtains for the league in terms of national relevance. They have no one to blame but themselves.

So, Lou, would you favor standing pat or adding a couple of non-A10 schools like VCU and Wichita State or even a western wing of Gonzaga and St. Mary's?

(06-09-2013 10:33 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:09 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 06:32 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:07 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:04 PM)LouPower Wrote:  Talk about a short-sighted move. Their TV deal is more internet streams.

Yeah, that deal is bad. The MVC's is worse but the A-10 is the premier mid-major basketball only league now, you'd think they could get someone like NBC sports network which has NHL, Ivy league football and CAA basketball to pony up atleast a million a team....

The problem with the Atlantic Ten is that in its entire history, UMass '96 is the only team coming out of that league to make it to the Final Four. As they've added teams like Butler, VCU, & George Mason, who have made it to the Final four, they haven't been there long enough to boost the league's national profile, which is what they need to create demand for a TV contract.

Contrast that league with the revamped Big East in which new addition Butler is just one of 4 teams to have made the Final Four since 2003. Add to that the fact that the A10 doesn't have anyone who has won a national championship in the modern era and only LaSalle who has ever won one. In contrast, Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette are all past national champs in the modern era. In addition, St. John's, Seton Hall, and DePaul won NIT's back when those mattered. That kind of history makes the Big East full of teams that are house hold names, which is precisely what's lacking in the A10.

The A-10 lacks one other key quality: A sense of their worth. 350K a school for a TV deal is pathetic. If the Big East takes 2 more A-10 teams, it's curtains for the league in terms of national relevance. They have no one to blame but themselves.

So, Lou, would you favor standing pat or adding a couple of non-A10 schools like VCU and Wichita State or even a western wing of Gonzaga and St. Mary's?

Well, I want the A-10 destroyed. SLU/VCU to the Big East does that.

(06-09-2013 10:38 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:33 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:09 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 06:32 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-08-2013 04:07 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  Yeah, that deal is bad. The MVC's is worse but the A-10 is the premier mid-major basketball only league now, you'd think they could get someone like NBC sports network which has NHL, Ivy league football and CAA basketball to pony up atleast a million a team....

The problem with the Atlantic Ten is that in its entire history, UMass '96 is the only team coming out of that league to make it to the Final Four. As they've added teams like Butler, VCU, & George Mason, who have made it to the Final four, they haven't been there long enough to boost the league's national profile, which is what they need to create demand for a TV contract.

Contrast that league with the revamped Big East in which new addition Butler is just one of 4 teams to have made the Final Four since 2003. Add to that the fact that the A10 doesn't have anyone who has won a national championship in the modern era and only LaSalle who has ever won one. In contrast, Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette are all past national champs in the modern era. In addition, St. John's, Seton Hall, and DePaul won NIT's back when those mattered. That kind of history makes the Big East full of teams that are house hold names, which is precisely what's lacking in the A10.

The A-10 lacks one other key quality: A sense of their worth. 350K a school for a TV deal is pathetic. If the Big East takes 2 more A-10 teams, it's curtains for the league in terms of national relevance. They have no one to blame but themselves.

So, Lou, would you favor standing pat or adding a couple of non-A10 schools like VCU and Wichita State or even a western wing of Gonzaga and St. Mary's?

Well, I want the A-10 destroyed. SLU/VCU to the Big East does that.

SLU/VCU makes the most sense to me.

Why the anger with the A10, which I expect will survive in some form?

(06-09-2013 10:42 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:38 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:33 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:09 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 06:32 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  The problem with the Atlantic Ten is that in its entire history, UMass '96 is the only team coming out of that league to make it to the Final Four. As they've added teams like Butler, VCU, & George Mason, who have made it to the Final four, they haven't been there long enough to boost the league's national profile, which is what they need to create demand for a TV contract.

Contrast that league with the revamped Big East in which new addition Butler is just one of 4 teams to have made the Final Four since 2003. Add to that the fact that the A10 doesn't have anyone who has won a national championship in the modern era and only LaSalle who has ever won one. In contrast, Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette are all past national champs in the modern era. In addition, St. John's, Seton Hall, and DePaul won NIT's back when those mattered. That kind of history makes the Big East full of teams that are house hold names, which is precisely what's lacking in the A10.

The A-10 lacks one other key quality: A sense of their worth. 350K a school for a TV deal is pathetic. If the Big East takes 2 more A-10 teams, it's curtains for the league in terms of national relevance. They have no one to blame but themselves.

So, Lou, would you favor standing pat or adding a couple of non-A10 schools like VCU and Wichita State or even a western wing of Gonzaga and St. Mary's?

Well, I want the A-10 destroyed. SLU/VCU to the Big East does that.

SLU/VCU makes the most sense to me.

Why the anger with the A10, which I expect will survive in some form?

I agree with you that it will survive no matter who goes. SLU/VCU leave, it is close to 1-bid hell. A league that took that TV package obviously doesn't care much about its product.

(06-09-2013 10:49 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:42 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:38 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:33 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:09 AM)LouPower Wrote:  The A-10 lacks one other key quality: A sense of their worth. 350K a school for a TV deal is pathetic. If the Big East takes 2 more A-10 teams, it's curtains for the league in terms of national relevance. They have no one to blame but themselves.

So, Lou, would you favor standing pat or adding a couple of non-A10 schools like VCU and Wichita State or even a western wing of Gonzaga and St. Mary's?

Well, I want the A-10 destroyed. SLU/VCU to the Big East does that.

SLU/VCU makes the most sense to me.

Why the anger with the A10, which I expect will survive in some form?

I agree with you that it will survive no matter who goes. SLU/VCU leave, it is close to 1-bid hell. A league that took that TV package obviously doesn't care much about its product.

I don't know. It could still be a pretty decent league. Not a 4 bid league any more but 2 bids annually are within reach. What they'll be missing are programs like Temple and Xavier who have been strong teams just about every year.

Consider this. Within the past decade alone, the following have each had a season in which they went at least into the 2nd weekend of the tournament within the past decade:

Davidson
LaSalle
George Mason
Richmond
St. Joe's

That's a pretty strong group of schools who have demonstrated that they can periodically come up with highly competitive teams. Throw in Dayton, GW, UMass, and URI who have all had their moments in the not too distant past and you've got a pretty strong group even if they lose St. Louis and VCU.

(06-09-2013 11:05 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:49 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:42 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:38 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:33 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  So, Lou, would you favor standing pat or adding a couple of non-A10 schools like VCU and Wichita State or even a western wing of Gonzaga and St. Mary's?

Well, I want the A-10 destroyed. SLU/VCU to the Big East does that.

SLU/VCU makes the most sense to me.

Why the anger with the A10, which I expect will survive in some form?

I agree with you that it will survive no matter who goes. SLU/VCU leave, it is close to 1-bid hell. A league that took that TV package obviously doesn't care much about its product.

I don't know. It could still be a pretty decent league. Not a 4 bid league any more but 2 bids annually are within reach. What they'll be missing are programs like Temple and Xavier who have been strong teams just about every year.

Consider this. Within the past decade alone, the following have each had a season in which they went at least into the 2nd weekend of the tournament within the past decade:

Davidson
LaSalle
George Mason
Richmond
St. Joe's

That's a pretty strong group of schools who have demonstrated that they can periodically come up with highly competitive teams. Throw in Dayton, GW, UMass, and URI who have all had their moments in the not too distant past and you've got a pretty strong group even if they lose St. Louis and VCU.

Davidson was a great move. George Mason (assuming SLU is stuck in the A-10) I didn't like at all, but that's mostly based on Paul Hewitt. With that group, 2 bids is going to be the exception, not the rule.

(06-09-2013 02:13 PM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 11:05 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:49 AM)LouPower Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:42 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(06-09-2013 10:38 AM)LouPower Wrote:  Well, I want the A-10 destroyed. SLU/VCU to the Big East does that.

SLU/VCU makes the most sense to me.

Why the anger with the A10, which I expect will survive in some form?

I agree with you that it will survive no matter who goes. SLU/VCU leave, it is close to 1-bid hell. A league that took that TV package obviously doesn't care much about its product.

I don't know. It could still be a pretty decent league. Not a 4 bid league any more but 2 bids annually are within reach. What they'll be missing are programs like Temple and Xavier who have been strong teams just about every year.

Consider this. Within the past decade alone, the following have each had a season in which they went at least into the 2nd weekend of the tournament within the past decade:

Davidson
LaSalle
George Mason
Richmond
St. Joe's

That's a pretty strong group of schools who have demonstrated that they can periodically come up with highly competitive teams. Throw in Dayton, GW, UMass, and URI who have all had their moments in the not too distant past and you've got a pretty strong group even if they lose St. Louis and VCU.

Davidson was a great move. George Mason (assuming SLU is stuck in the A-10) I didn't like at all, but that's mostly based on Paul Hewitt. With that group, 2 bids is going to be the exception, not the rule.

Without St. Louis and VCU, the remaining group has 21 bids in the past decade, so history would suggest a 2 bid league.

(06-07-2013 04:56 PM)hoops22 Wrote:  One of the problems the Big East has had in recent years was a total misreading of the athletic landscape as well as a lack of vision concerning what exactly they wanted to be.

I completely agree with this, but your proposal then largely flies in the face of that. The old Big East put together about as great of a powerhouse basketball conference that anyone could reasonably arrange, yet it also decidedly flew in the face of having a conference that "knew what it wanted to be".

To me, conferences built for the long-term have a combination of institutional fit, similarly situated athletic departments, and geography. Simply putting together a list of the best basketball and/or football programs over the past 10 years is as short-sighted as what the old Big East did.

Now, it might have been different if there were more viable western options besides Gonzaga and BYU where you could truly put together a great western division, but the depth simply isn't there. The marginal gain for the Big East going far outside of its footprint while losing its geographic and institutional cohesiveness isn't large enough to justify it.