You act like it's Jones or Smith. Who's ever even heard this name before today. Good grief nitpick stalker go stalk rep someone else and get banned again why don't you.

(05-16-2013 04:32 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(05-16-2013 03:16 PM)CharSFNiner Wrote:  

(05-16-2013 02:57 PM)PirateMarv Wrote:  

(05-16-2013 02:40 PM)StillJonesing Wrote:  Quick whip out some 3 year old Ahole's opinion and high school recruiting ranking as something tangible and better Marv. You know opposed to this year's pace adjusted real college data with a nice sample size

Moneyball is overrated.

As an A's fan, I can attest to this.

Opposed to what 3 year old opinion high school recruiting rankings Marv and others hold up as gospel? What's overatted is SHHI tons of prospects on these recruiting list every year, which is exactly why many get recruited and later have to transfer. Didn't about half the teams in the MLB mimick the A's system including world champ Red Sox? Perhaps the A's just got out moneyballed eventually in the end by moneyball metric using teams with more money. Regardless it's beats a 3 year old recruiting ranking.

The Memphis Grizzlies hired John Hollenger in the front office this year, and once he got there made a series of trades that cleared a lot of payroll and dumped overrated high salary crap like Rudy Gay. They might be the only team with a real chance to beat the Heat this year, with a team of largely underated/unappreciated players. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his metrics or teams like the Grizzlies valuing it. You can knock it but for basketball stats it's as good as it gets.

The A's most definitely were out money-balled by teams with money, but even before other teams picked up on it, they weren't winning titles. They were choking away their chances versus teams with better talent.

Look, I know the PER is virtually gospel to you, but it tends to lack certain aspects of context and as some have said it doesn't take into account the role a player may be playing at the demand of his coach. It also is heavily weighed towards the offensive side of the ball, which is fine so long as it isn't the end all be all. It's a tool.

As for Hollinger and his advanced metric, if he needed that to tell him Rudy Gay was overrated and overpaid, then I pity the man. I could have told him that in a 5 minute conversation.

(05-17-2013 08:32 AM)CharSFNiner Wrote:  The A's most definitely were out money-balled by teams with money, but even before other teams picked up on it, they weren't winning titles. They were choking away their chances versus teams with better talent.

So? That doesn't mean they weren't successful or FAR out performing their level of resources. What did you need to see miracles. They were close.

Quote:Look, I know the PER is virtually gospel to you, but it tends to lack certain aspects of context and as some have said it doesn't take into account the role a player may be playing at the demand of his coach. It also is heavily weighed towards the offensive side of the ball, which is fine so long as it isn't the end all be all. It's a tool.

I agree it's just a tool but it's the best there is out there. I also try to balance the data out with +/- and how the team is actually performing when players are on the court beyond individual and I think together that encompass a lot of data average fans dont see. You don’t get a better or more simple stat than does your team outscore the other team when a certain player plays. I could also break it down to just the defensive side of the ball but who cares if you are outscoring them by a certain number how you are doing it. That's really all that matters.

People like Marv and others swore 2 years ago Kemp sucked at PF his JR year defensively (which is where he played 99% of his minutes) and that that was why Lebo didn’t play him more. They were absolutely wrong. The team was better defensively with him on the court than all but 7 other players in CUSA and one of the better teams in the nation defensivly when he played. It was like 93 points per every 100 possessions given up when he was on the court. Sometimes because a player is skinny, short, slow whatever people like Marv dream they see $hit that’s not there at all. The numbers are what actually happened.

Quote:As for Hollinger and his advanced metric, if he needed that to tell him Rudy Gay was overrated and overpaid, then I pity the man. I could have told him that in a 5 minute conversation.

It was more important to get the right replacements. Tons of teams would have taken Gay for nothing. I think he helped them pick guys that would compliment the team with budget in mind.

I read every team but the Kings have a stat guy on their payroll. It’s become very important.

Meanwhile, the Bobcats picked up Cho as their stat guy off of Presti's coattails and they continue to suck. It's not all it's cracked up to be.

(05-17-2013 10:35 AM)CharSFNiner Wrote:  Meanwhile, the Bobcats picked up Cho as their stat guy off of Presti's coattails and they continue to suck. It's not all it's cracked up to be.

The bobcats actually improved a lot this year and have made some nice moves for the future like getting a 1st round draft pick for essentially Cory Maggette somehow. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken $hit overnight. Not the stink level that $hit was at.

I'd only put my faith in Hollienger anyway. I don't know enough about what those other stat guys value, but I've read Hollienger's breakdowns and analyzes for years now and I don't think there is anyone better personally. The only problem is I suspected others have also read his books/ articles as well and they will know exactly what he values. Going to be hard for Memphis to go into trade discussions without their cards already on the table.

Unfortunately he will probably continue to improve his formula's and the general public will never get access to them now he's in a front office.

Bobcats is a work in progress, let them get rid of all the payroll mess MJ let them slide into and it'll start to payoff

(05-17-2013 10:57 AM)PurpleReigns2012 Wrote:  Bobcats is a work in progress, let them get rid of all the payroll mess MJ let them slide into and it'll start to payoff

They almost got James Harden for the #2 pick last year so it shows they are on the right track. You got to have assets to be able to make moves though and they just didn't have enough. I don't think they mind sucking though until the Andrew Wiggins draft next year. That's everyones goal is a chance at him because he's seems to be the next big thing coming in the NBA. Just as well clear cap space and wait until his draft at this point.

(05-17-2013 10:57 AM)PurpleReigns2012 Wrote:  Bobcats is a work in progress, let them get rid of all the payroll mess MJ let them slide into and it'll start to payoff

Getting rid of MJ would help a lot.

(05-17-2013 11:52 AM)StillJonesing Wrote:  

(05-17-2013 10:57 AM)PurpleReigns2012 Wrote:  Bobcats is a work in progress, let them get rid of all the payroll mess MJ let them slide into and it'll start to payoff

They almost got James Harden for the #2 pick last year so it shows they are on the right track. You got to have assets to be able to make moves though and they just didn't have enough. I don't think they mind sucking though until the Andrew Wiggins draft next year. That's everyones goal is a chance at him because he's seems to be the next big thing coming in the NBA. Just as well clear cap space and wait until his draft at this point.

Haven't seen a ton of Wiggins on video, but from what I have seen, can't say I'm convinced he's the next big thing.

(05-17-2013 12:47 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(05-17-2013 10:57 AM)PurpleReigns2012 Wrote:  Bobcats is a work in progress, let them get rid of all the payroll mess MJ let them slide into and it'll start to payoff

Getting rid of MJ would help a lot.

Why? MJ has been mostly hands off and has put a good manager in charge. He has been handcuffed by his cap situation which will finally not be an issue.

If he blows it in free agency / the draft in the next 2 years then I might change my mind.

Hands off? MJ had final say n all player dealings until Cho