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ACC Conference Tournament to MSG?
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thegalen Offline
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Post: #81
RE: ACC Conference Tournament to MSG?
(05-28-2013 10:50 AM)billyjack Wrote:  
(05-28-2013 09:20 AM)thegalen Wrote:  So, you know the bidding window closed prior to the Big East split, right? Everything you say MSG was aware of, they were only aware of after the fact when the September ACC deadline had come and gone. As for the number of students, it's about the size of the fan base. Hold the gap proportionally constant over the last 20 years or so. I'm not rooting for anything, by the way. I just think it's very likely that MSG and the ACC work something out, even if only for a few years.

With the Big East, because we're city schools, non-alums and non-students make up a big part of our fanbases (I didn't go to PC; neither did most other PC fans I know here in state). So student body size doesn't apply. This is an extremely important piece of information that gets overlooked by many non Big East posters.

Or, on the flip side, think of the Friars, with a student body of around 3,000 but with an average attendance last year of around 8,000... our attendance on average is more than 250% higher than our student body...!
Ok, but schools like UNC, Duke, Louisville etc. carry large portions of entire states, cities and all. Again, we're not just talking attendance. The value of MSG ad space for a telecast event like a conference tournament is predicated on expected viewership far more than it is on in-house attendance (unless of course fewer TV viewers are expected than attendees).
05-28-2013 06:52 PM
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NJRedMan Offline
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Post: #82
RE: ACC Conference Tournament to MSG?
(05-28-2013 06:52 PM)thegalen Wrote:  
(05-28-2013 10:50 AM)billyjack Wrote:  
(05-28-2013 09:20 AM)thegalen Wrote:  So, you know the bidding window closed prior to the Big East split, right? Everything you say MSG was aware of, they were only aware of after the fact when the September ACC deadline had come and gone. As for the number of students, it's about the size of the fan base. Hold the gap proportionally constant over the last 20 years or so. I'm not rooting for anything, by the way. I just think it's very likely that MSG and the ACC work something out, even if only for a few years.

With the Big East, because we're city schools, non-alums and non-students make up a big part of our fanbases (I didn't go to PC; neither did most other PC fans I know here in state). So student body size doesn't apply. This is an extremely important piece of information that gets overlooked by many non Big East posters.

Or, on the flip side, think of the Friars, with a student body of around 3,000 but with an average attendance last year of around 8,000... our attendance on average is more than 250% higher than our student body...!
Ok, but schools like UNC, Duke, Louisville etc. carry large portions of entire states, cities and all. Again, we're not just talking attendance. The value of MSG ad space for a telecast event like a conference tournament is predicated on expected viewership far more than it is on in-house attendance (unless of course fewer TV viewers are expected than attendees).

Dude, it's not happening. Let it go.
05-28-2013 07:10 PM
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thegalen Offline
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Post: #83
RE: ACC Conference Tournament to MSG?
(05-28-2013 07:10 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(05-28-2013 06:52 PM)thegalen Wrote:  
(05-28-2013 10:50 AM)billyjack Wrote:  
(05-28-2013 09:20 AM)thegalen Wrote:  So, you know the bidding window closed prior to the Big East split, right? Everything you say MSG was aware of, they were only aware of after the fact when the September ACC deadline had come and gone. As for the number of students, it's about the size of the fan base. Hold the gap proportionally constant over the last 20 years or so. I'm not rooting for anything, by the way. I just think it's very likely that MSG and the ACC work something out, even if only for a few years.

With the Big East, because we're city schools, non-alums and non-students make up a big part of our fanbases (I didn't go to PC; neither did most other PC fans I know here in state). So student body size doesn't apply. This is an extremely important piece of information that gets overlooked by many non Big East posters.

Or, on the flip side, think of the Friars, with a student body of around 3,000 but with an average attendance last year of around 8,000... our attendance on average is more than 250% higher than our student body...!
Ok, but schools like UNC, Duke, Louisville etc. carry large portions of entire states, cities and all. Again, we're not just talking attendance. The value of MSG ad space for a telecast event like a conference tournament is predicated on expected viewership far more than it is on in-house attendance (unless of course fewer TV viewers are expected than attendees).

Dude, it's not happening. Let it go.
Maybe it doesn't, but the idea that the BE is going to match our outdraw the ACC whether in terms of attendance or viewership, be it at MSG or the North Pole, is obviously not true.
05-28-2013 07:27 PM
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MU88 Offline
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Post: #84
RE: ACC Conference Tournament to MSG?
(05-28-2013 07:27 PM)thegalen Wrote:  Maybe it doesn't, but the idea that the BE is going to match our outdraw the ACC whether in terms of attendance or viewership, be it at MSG or the North Pole, is obviously not true.

Ratings depend on who provides better matchups. If SJU and Georgetown are in the top 5 at conference tournament time, the ratings will be sky high. If SJU or SHU is very good, a ticket at the Garden will be in huge demand. Fox will promote the heck out of the BE. It will be the marquee event on FoxSports 1 and maybe even Fox. It will be interesting to see what happens.

That said, being the best bball conference is far from a guarantee for the ACC. It will be considered the worst BCS football conference, by far (a title is just acquired from the BE). Bad football is going to mean the conference is going to be the but of jokes throughout the football season. How that translates to hoops will be interesting. You had 8 schools in the BE who didn't play football and could, for the most part, avoid the bad press associated with bad football. How will the continually ripping of Duke's, WF's and BC's football programs, effect their hoops programs? I think the BE football bashing certainly didn't help schools like Rutgers and USF turn their hoops programs around.

Further, the ACC pretty much dragged the BE teams that previously switched conferences down crapper over the past 10 years. I guess VT has been the most stable, but football has slid (although hoops may have improved a bit). However, but for Miami's miracle run last year (on a team dominated with seniors and Larkin, who is leaving), BC and Miami's athletic programs have bit the big one. Playing outside your region in BC's case really has hurt them. Will it effect SU and Pitt in the same way? Maybe. Hopefully for them, having ND, UL and BC in the same conference will lessen that effect.

While I anticipate Louisville and ND making seamless transitions to the ACC, I anticipate Pitt is going to struggle mightily. Being shut out of New York, for the most part will render them irrelevant, much like BC. I think Syracuse will also find the change difficult, especially when JB retires. Right now, their exposure in NY will decrease significantly. They will be just another school at the ACC tournament. How those factors effect them long term? No one knows.

I think people need to look at what happened after the 5 CUSA schools joined the BE. In short, you had 6 school that really couldn't turn their programs around for the long haul. DePaul, USF, PC, SHU, Rutgers and SJU all struggled, but for an isolated year or two. The top half of the conference was simply too difficult to allow a program to turn it around. I would expect the same in the ACC. You will have 6 schools that will not be able to complete on a yearly basis. Who will they be?

On the flip side, you will have a few schools dominate the conference. I would suspect, UNC, Duke, SU and UL will be strong for the next few years. However, I suspect Duke and SU spot on the top of the ladder is the most shakey, given the impending coaching changes at both schools. Duke has a small fan base in NC and its always difficult to follow a legend. Old arenas have charm when the coach is a legend. They are an issue when the new guy takes over.

Will schools like GT, Pitt and NC State become like UC or Marquette in the BE, or become a Rutgers or USF? Once you slip to doormat status, it is going to become very, very difficult to become competitive again in the ACC. How happy will BC, Wake or Clemson be if they finish worse than 12th for the next 10 years? The Garden may seem like a great idea now, but if Syracuse goes down the crapper and BC continues to blow, how many non-UL and non-UNC fans will make the trip year after year. Much like the 6 or 8 USF fans you used to see at the Garden, you may have similar numbers from FSU, NC State and Clemson.
05-29-2013 10:21 AM
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NJRedMan Offline
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Post: #85
RE: ACC Conference Tournament to MSG?
(05-29-2013 10:21 AM)MU88 Wrote:  
(05-28-2013 07:27 PM)thegalen Wrote:  Maybe it doesn't, but the idea that the BE is going to match our outdraw the ACC whether in terms of attendance or viewership, be it at MSG or the North Pole, is obviously not true.

Ratings depend on who provides better matchups. If SJU and Georgetown are in the top 5 at conference tournament time, the ratings will be sky high. If SJU or SHU is very good, a ticket at the Garden will be in huge demand. Fox will promote the heck out of the BE. It will be the marquee event on FoxSports 1 and maybe even Fox. It will be interesting to see what happens.

That said, being the best bball conference is far from a guarantee for the ACC. It will be considered the worst BCS football conference, by far (a title is just acquired from the BE). Bad football is going to mean the conference is going to be the but of jokes throughout the football season. How that translates to hoops will be interesting. You had 8 schools in the BE who didn't play football and could, for the most part, avoid the bad press associated with bad football. How will the continually ripping of Duke's, WF's and BC's football programs, effect their hoops programs? I think the BE football bashing certainly didn't help schools like Rutgers and USF turn their hoops programs around.

Further, the ACC pretty much dragged the BE teams that previously switched conferences down crapper over the past 10 years. I guess VT has been the most stable, but football has slid (although hoops may have improved a bit). However, but for Miami's miracle run last year (on a team dominated with seniors and Larkin, who is leaving), BC and Miami's athletic programs have bit the big one. Playing outside your region in BC's case really has hurt them. Will it effect SU and Pitt in the same way? Maybe. Hopefully for them, having ND, UL and BC in the same conference will lessen that effect.

While I anticipate Louisville and ND making seamless transitions to the ACC, I anticipate Pitt is going to struggle mightily. Being shut out of New York, for the most part will render them irrelevant, much like BC. I think Syracuse will also find the change difficult, especially when JB retires. Right now, their exposure in NY will decrease significantly. They will be just another school at the ACC tournament. How those factors effect them long term? No one knows.

I think people need to look at what happened after the 5 CUSA schools joined the BE. In short, you had 6 school that really couldn't turn their programs around for the long haul. DePaul, USF, PC, SHU, Rutgers and SJU all struggled, but for an isolated year or two. The top half of the conference was simply too difficult to allow a program to turn it around. I would expect the same in the ACC. You will have 6 schools that will not be able to complete on a yearly basis. Who will they be?

On the flip side, you will have a few schools dominate the conference. I would suspect, UNC, Duke, SU and UL will be strong for the next few years. However, I suspect Duke and SU spot on the top of the ladder is the most shakey, given the impending coaching changes at both schools. Duke has a small fan base in NC and its always difficult to follow a legend. Old arenas have charm when the coach is a legend. They are an issue when the new guy takes over.

Will schools like GT, Pitt and NC State become like UC or Marquette in the BE, or become a Rutgers or USF? Once you slip to doormat status, it is going to become very, very difficult to become competitive again in the ACC. How happy will BC, Wake or Clemson be if they finish worse than 12th for the next 10 years? The Garden may seem like a great idea now, but if Syracuse goes down the crapper and BC continues to blow, how many non-UL and non-UNC fans will make the trip year after year. Much like the 6 or 8 USF fans you used to see at the Garden, you may have similar numbers from FSU, NC State and Clemson.

I know who the 6 will be.

VT
BC
Clemson
Miami
UVA
Wake
05-29-2013 10:36 AM
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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Post: #86
RE: ACC Conference Tournament to MSG?
(05-29-2013 10:21 AM)MU88 Wrote:  
(05-28-2013 07:27 PM)thegalen Wrote:  Maybe it doesn't, but the idea that the BE is going to match our outdraw the ACC whether in terms of attendance or viewership, be it at MSG or the North Pole, is obviously not true.

Ratings depend on who provides better matchups. If SJU and Georgetown are in the top 5 at conference tournament time, the ratings will be sky high. If SJU or SHU is very good, a ticket at the Garden will be in huge demand. Fox will promote the heck out of the BE. It will be the marquee event on FoxSports 1 and maybe even Fox. It will be interesting to see what happens.

That said, being the best bball conference is far from a guarantee for the ACC. It will be considered the worst BCS football conference, by far (a title is just acquired from the BE). Bad football is going to mean the conference is going to be the but of jokes throughout the football season. How that translates to hoops will be interesting. You had 8 schools in the BE who didn't play football and could, for the most part, avoid the bad press associated with bad football. How will the continually ripping of Duke's, WF's and BC's football programs, effect their hoops programs? I think the BE football bashing certainly didn't help schools like Rutgers and USF turn their hoops programs around.

Further, the ACC pretty much dragged the BE teams that previously switched conferences down crapper over the past 10 years. I guess VT has been the most stable, but football has slid (although hoops may have improved a bit). However, but for Miami's miracle run last year (on a team dominated with seniors and Larkin, who is leaving), BC and Miami's athletic programs have bit the big one. Playing outside your region in BC's case really has hurt them. Will it effect SU and Pitt in the same way? Maybe. Hopefully for them, having ND, UL and BC in the same conference will lessen that effect.

While I anticipate Louisville and ND making seamless transitions to the ACC, I anticipate Pitt is going to struggle mightily. Being shut out of New York, for the most part will render them irrelevant, much like BC. I think Syracuse will also find the change difficult, especially when JB retires. Right now, their exposure in NY will decrease significantly. They will be just another school at the ACC tournament. How those factors effect them long term? No one knows.

I think people need to look at what happened after the 5 CUSA schools joined the BE. In short, you had 6 school that really couldn't turn their programs around for the long haul. DePaul, USF, PC, SHU, Rutgers and SJU all struggled, but for an isolated year or two. The top half of the conference was simply too difficult to allow a program to turn it around. I would expect the same in the ACC. You will have 6 schools that will not be able to complete on a yearly basis. Who will they be?

On the flip side, you will have a few schools dominate the conference. I would suspect, UNC, Duke, SU and UL will be strong for the next few years. However, I suspect Duke and SU spot on the top of the ladder is the most shakey, given the impending coaching changes at both schools. Duke has a small fan base in NC and its always difficult to follow a legend. Old arenas have charm when the coach is a legend. They are an issue when the new guy takes over.

Will schools like GT, Pitt and NC State become like UC or Marquette in the BE, or become a Rutgers or USF? Once you slip to doormat status, it is going to become very, very difficult to become competitive again in the ACC. How happy will BC, Wake or Clemson be if they finish worse than 12th for the next 10 years? The Garden may seem like a great idea now, but if Syracuse goes down the crapper and BC continues to blow, how many non-UL and non-UNC fans will make the trip year after year. Much like the 6 or 8 USF fans you used to see at the Garden, you may have similar numbers from FSU, NC State and Clemson.

MU88, you make many great points here. I can't improve on what you said. 04-bow 04-rock

I'll give special emphasis to several:

1. BC and Miami have declined since joining the ACC. Great point!

2. BC has cut itself off from a sizeable fan base in the try-state area and Syracuse faces the possibility of doing the same. Another great point!

3. Pitt is cutting itself off from it's NYC recruiting base. That will hurt. Absolutely.

4. The problem with all of these bloated leagues is (just as you said) that it's almost impossible for the bottom teams to crawl their way out of the basis and to become competitive again. We learned that in the Big East as it got too big and the rest of these leagues are going to learn the same thing. Right on the money!

5. Attendance declines with fewer wins and increases with success. Some of these teams are going to see attendance declines - as has happened with BC and Miami. As losing becomes chronic, attendance problems will increase.
Yup.

6. The Big East will flourish in those cities where the teams have success. Hopefully the reconstituted Big East can rotate teams at the top as the league did in the 80s and 90s.

Great post! 04-cheers
05-29-2013 04:58 PM
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