(05-10-2013 10:26 PM)JMUNation Wrote:  I still am floored at why people think a school should give a player a scholarship for all four years. I played high school basketball and worked really hard. I think I deserve a scholarship too because I am a nice guy who loves JMU.

Marks received two years of a free education for his work on the court. If he loves JMU so much, he can pay to go to school there just like everyone else on that campus does. If he wants to play basketball somewhere, he can transfer. Nobody did anyone wrong here.

We really do live in the entitlement generation. You young guys have no clue. No one is going to give you anything in this world. You better get use to that. Put your big boy pants on cause life isn't fair. You better work your ass off and hope your boss or your bosses boss likes you because if they don't, you are looking for your next job unless you are a top notch performer that they just can't replace.

Marks is nothing more than a practice player. He is the guy at the end of the bench. He may be the nicest person in the world but he isn't good enough after two years to play significant minutes at JMU. That cost him his scholarship and it is completely fair.

Marks had his chance and it did not work out for him. Now it is next man up.

Completely agree!

(05-11-2013 07:15 AM)HolyCityDuke Wrote:  

(05-10-2013 10:26 PM)JMUNation Wrote:  I still am floored at why people think a school should give a player a scholarship for all four years. I played high school basketball and worked really hard. I think I deserve a scholarship too because I am a nice guy who loves JMU.

Marks received two years of a free education for his work on the court. If he loves JMU so much, he can pay to go to school there just like everyone else on that campus does. If he wants to play basketball somewhere, he can transfer. Nobody did anyone wrong here.

We really do live in the entitlement generation. You young guys have no clue. No one is going to give you anything in this world. You better get use to that. Put your big boy pants on cause life isn't fair. You better work your ass off and hope your boss or your bosses boss likes you because if they don't, you are looking for your next job unless you are a top notch performer that they just can't replace.

Marks is nothing more than a practice player. He is the guy at the end of the bench. He may be the nicest person in the world but he isn't good enough after two years to play significant minutes at JMU. That cost him his scholarship and it is completely fair.

Marks had his chance and it did not work out for him. Now it is next man up.

Completely agree!

Sorry, but this is an educational opportunity, not just a business. Many of these scholar-athletes wouldn't have the opportunity to complete college were it not for the "free ride" (which isn't exactly free given the extra work involved). Pulling a scholarship for anything other than some serious violation of team and university rules (which cover all illegal activities) is immoral in my opinion. And being "recruited over" is no reason to yank a scholarship.

Bottom line, JMUNation's analogy is flawed. A High School player cut because they aren't good enough for varsity ball isn't kicked out of High School, but losing a college scholarship may mean they won't be able to stay in school and complete their degree. Pulling a schollie should be done only under the most egregious of circumstances...when there is a serious violation of team rules. The coach-think of "hey, I found somebody better than you, now get lost" should never enter into the equation.

(05-11-2013 08:44 AM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(05-11-2013 07:15 AM)HolyCityDuke Wrote:  

(05-10-2013 10:26 PM)JMUNation Wrote:  I still am floored at why people think a school should give a player a scholarship for all four years. I played high school basketball and worked really hard. I think I deserve a scholarship too because I am a nice guy who loves JMU.

Marks received two years of a free education for his work on the court. If he loves JMU so much, he can pay to go to school there just like everyone else on that campus does. If he wants to play basketball somewhere, he can transfer. Nobody did anyone wrong here.

We really do live in the entitlement generation. You young guys have no clue. No one is going to give you anything in this world. You better get use to that. Put your big boy pants on cause life isn't fair. You better work your ass off and hope your boss or your bosses boss likes you because if they don't, you are looking for your next job unless you are a top notch performer that they just can't replace.

Marks is nothing more than a practice player. He is the guy at the end of the bench. He may be the nicest person in the world but he isn't good enough after two years to play significant minutes at JMU. That cost him his scholarship and it is completely fair.

Marks had his chance and it did not work out for him. Now it is next man up.

Completely agree!

Pulling a schollie should be done only under the most egregious of circumstances...when there is a serious violation of team rules.

New team rule: Help win basketball games.

(05-11-2013 08:44 AM)Longhorn Wrote:  Sorry, but this is an educational opportunity, not just a business. Many of these scholar-athletes wouldn't have the opportunity to complete college were it not for the "free ride" (which isn't exactly free given the extra work involved). Pulling a scholarship for anything other than some serious violation of team and university rules (which cover all illegal activities) is immoral in my opinion. And being "recruited over" is no reason to yank a scholarship.

Bottom line, JMUNation's analogy is flawed. A High School player cut because they aren't good enough for varsity ball isn't kicked out of High School, but losing a college scholarship may mean they won't be able to stay in school and complete their degree. Pulling a schollie should be done only under the most egregious of circumstances...when there is a serious violation of team rules. The coach-think of "hey, I found somebody better than you, now get lost" should never enter into the equation.

Agree. Plus what parent/recruit would ever want to chose a school where they've seen scholarships pulled just because the kid couldn't play at the level the coaches wanted despite (apparently) doing everything else asked of him.

I am with Longhorn on this

While I too am a Arman Marks fan and am troubled by "cutting" a player, there are other means (financial aid, student loans) to allow Arman to continue his education here, albeit not the free ride he got for two years. I hope that the rest of the university allows him to continue his education here.

(05-11-2013 09:37 AM)Phlegmish Wrote:  While I too am a Arman Marks fan and am troubled by "cutting" a player, there are other means (financial aid, student loans) to allow Arman to continue his education here, albeit not the free ride he got for two years. I hope that the rest of the university allows him to continue his education here.

That's a work-around that is restricted by the NCAA...so while your "solution" sounds "kind" it may not in fact be a solution, and in any case it doesn't address the moral and ethical question I posed earlier. Pulling a scholarship because a player has been "recruited over" should never, ever happen.

(05-11-2013 09:37 AM)Phlegmish Wrote:  While I too am a Arman Marks fan and am troubled by "cutting" a player, there are other means (financial aid, student loans) to allow Arman to continue his education here, albeit not the free ride he got for two years. I hope that the rest of the university allows him to continue his education here.

I doubt he remains here. While I agree with the sentiment of most that he may not have figured into the rotation in the next two years, he's still good enough to play at many other schools, D-1 and below, so I would expect you will see news of him transferring out of here sooner rather than later.

(05-11-2013 09:58 AM)Dukes86 Wrote:  

(05-11-2013 09:37 AM)Phlegmish Wrote:  While I too am a Arman Marks fan and am troubled by "cutting" a player, there are other means (financial aid, student loans) to allow Arman to continue his education here, albeit not the free ride he got for two years. I hope that the rest of the university allows him to continue his education here.

I doubt he remains here. While I agree with the sentiment of most that he may not have figured into the rotation in the next two years, he's still good enough to play at many other schools, D-1 and below, so I would expect you will see news of him transferring out of here sooner rather than later.

I am in complete agreement with Longhorn.

How is it any different than a student who is dismissed for academic purposes? I'm not sure what the GPA threshold is now but there is one and if you're below it, you are asked to move on for another student who wants to attend the university who has demonstrated superior academic competency. Hood and Marks weren't going to see much PT anyway. Better for them to go somewhere else and actually get to play. It's not like they were starters. Both primarily saw mop up duty last year.

Alex Kline ‏@TheRecruitScoop
James Madison has emerged as the leader for 2013 Lower Merion (PA) PF Yohanny Dalembert, a source says.

(05-11-2013 10:38 AM)DoubleDDuke Wrote:  How is it any different than a student who is dismissed for academic purposes? I'm not sure what the GPA threshold is now but there is one and if you're below it, you are asked to move on for another student who wants to attend the university who has demonstrated superior academic competency. Hood and Marks weren't going to see much PT anyway. Better for them to go somewhere else and actually get to play. It's not like they were starters. Both primarily saw mop up duty last year.

There is a huge difference! JMU recruited Hood and Marks and they chose JMU based on the sales job of the coaching staff. As long as they worked at being basketball players and stayed academic eligible then JMU (I strongly feel) should be obligated to fulfill their part of the agreement.
It is Brady’s decision who he recruits. Brady makes these decisions based on his opinion of the projected player development. Once signed, it is Brady’s job to coach and develop the skills. As far as I am concerned it is the coaches mistake when he under recruits and the coach obligation to live with the miscalculation.
Brady has a poor track record with player retention. It looks bad on him as a coach and JMU as a university. Player retention is the coach’s responsibility.
Brady has made recruiting like a fishing trip. He keeps what he has until a bigger or better one comes along.

(05-11-2013 12:03 PM)HMK Wrote:  There is a huge difference! JMU recruited Hood and Marks and they chose JMU based on the sales job of the coaching staff. As long as they worked at being basketball players and stayed academic eligible then JMU (I strongly feel) should be obligated to fulfill their part of the agreement.
It is Brady’s decision who he recruits. Brady makes these decisions based on his opinion of the projected player development. Once signed, it is Brady’s job to coach and develop the skills. As far as I am concerned it is the coaches mistake when he under recruits and the coach obligation to live with the miscalculation.
Brady has a poor track record with player retention. It looks bad on him as a coach and JMU as a university. Player retention is the coach’s responsibility.
Brady has made recruiting like a fishing trip. He keeps what he has until a bigger or better one comes along.

I understand your point but I respectfully disagree. Enoch Hood doesn't looked like he has gained one pound since he showed up at JMU. He was a guy who should have lived in the weight room. It's Division 1 athletics (insert Dan Hawkins clip here). Scholarships are granted on an annual basis. Mr. Nice Guy doesn't win basketball games.

Most of me dislikes the whole pulling of the scholarship because the player is not good enough or doesn't fit the system. We don't really know the day in & day out dealings between player and coach. But short of not practicing hard, running afoul of academics/ the law or being a team cancer, I just don't like pulling the scholarship. And what I don't get and what never gets mentioned is that OUR coaches said "We want you....You can play here". It's not like the kids sought out the coach and badgered him to award the student a schollie.

Who knows? Maybe it goes on more than I'm aware at our peer programs? Perhaps in contract renegotiation, Matt said I need to be able to do this to be competitive?

edit: didn't see HMKs post, but sounds like we basically agree on the "coaches" part.

I appreciate the compassion expressed by Longhorn and HMK. There is a part of me that feels the same way they do. Here is a different spin. Matt gave both players a chance to compete and play at JMU. They failed. Recruited over? Seriously? Matt almost lost his job this year because JMU did not win enough games in prior years. So he should recruit players not as good as Marks and Hood to ensure they are able to play ahead of the new players?

I know HMK well. He is a good person. He works at a university. Longhorn is a professor at a university. Neither of them understand how the business world works. You get your spot as long as you out produce the guy behind you. It doesn't matter how long you have been there or what you did last year. In the business world and in the world of sports (which is a business) the only thing that matters is production. If you want seniority or what you did in the past to count, go to work for the government or make sure your company has a strong union. Virginia is a right to work state. You better bring it ever day of your life or you are going to be looking for a job. There is no tenure.

I don't know Mark's or Hood's financial situation. If they need basketball to get a degree, there are lower level D1 and D2 schools that likely would offer them a scholarship. If they can't afford to pay their own way, then they can find a school that will offer them a scholarship. There is also this thing called a job if they are not good enough to transfer down.

I worked all the way through college to earn a degree. A lot of students do this. HMK and Longhorn seem to think the only way to pay for a degree is to come from a family with enough money to pay for it or get a scholarship. My family could not afford to send me to college. Lots of students work their way through school and use loans too. Why is it Marks and Hood are somehow enabled from doing what so many in the general population do?

Big boy pants people. If you want something bad enough, you find a way to make it happen. Necessity is the mother of invention. It is what this country was built on.

(05-11-2013 08:00 PM)JMUNation Wrote:  I appreciate the compassion expressed by Longhorn and HMK. There is a part of me that feels the same way they do. Here is a different spin. Matt gave both players a chance to compete and play at JMU. They failed. Recruited over? Seriously? Matt almost lost his job this year because JMU did not win enough games in prior years. So he should recruit players not as good as Marks and Hood to ensure they are able to play ahead of the new players?

I know HMK well. He is a good person. He works at a university. Longhorn is a professor at a university. Neither of them understand how the business world works. You get your spot as long as you out produce the guy behind you. It doesn't matter how long you have been there or what you did last year. In the business world and in the world of sports (which is a business) the only thing that matters is production. If you want seniority or what you did in the past to count, go to work for the government or make sure your company has a strong union. Virginia is a right to work state. You better bring it ever day of your life or you are going to be looking for a job. There is no tenure.

I don't know Mark's or Hood's financial situation. If they need basketball to get a degree, there are lower level D1 and D2 schools that likely would offer them a scholarship. If they can't afford to pay their own way, then they can find a school that will offer them a scholarship. There is also this thing called a job if they are not good enough to transfer down.

I worked all the way through college to earn a degree. A lot of students do this. HMK and Longhorn seem to think the only way to pay for a degree is to come from a family with enough money to pay for it or get a scholarship. My family could not afford to send me to college. Lots of students work their way through school and use loans too. Why is it Marks and Hood are somehow enabled from doing what so many in the general population do?

Big boy pants people. If you want something bad enough, you find a way to make it happen. Necessity is the mother of invention. It is what this country was built on.

Amen. +1

(05-11-2013 08:00 PM)JMUNation Wrote:  I appreciate the compassion expressed by Longhorn and HMK. There is a part of me that feels the same way they do. Here is a different spin. Matt gave both players a chance to compete and play at JMU. They failed. Recruited over? Seriously? Matt almost lost his job this year because JMU did not win enough games in prior years. So he should recruit players not as good as Marks and Hood to ensure they are able to play ahead of the new players?

I know HMK well. He is a good person. He works at a university. Longhorn is a professor at a university. Neither of them understand how the business world works. You get your spot as long as you out produce the guy behind you. It doesn't matter how long you have been there or what you did last year. In the business world and in the world of sports (which is a business) the only thing that matters is production. If you want seniority or what you did in the past to count, go to work for the government or make sure your company has a strong union. Virginia is a right to work state. You better bring it ever day of your life or you are going to be looking for a job. There is no tenure.

I don't know Mark's or Hood's financial situation. If they need basketball to get a degree, there are lower level D1 and D2 schools that likely would offer them a scholarship. If they can't afford to pay their own way, then they can find a school that will offer them a scholarship. There is also this thing called a job if they are not good enough to transfer down.

I worked all the way through college to earn a degree. A lot of students do this. HMK and Longhorn seem to think the only way to pay for a degree is to come from a family with enough money to pay for it or get a scholarship. My family could not afford to send me to college. Lots of students work their way through school and use loans too. Why is it Marks and Hood are somehow enabled from doing what so many in the general population do?

Big boy pants people. If you want something bad enough, you find a way to make it happen. Necessity is the mother of invention. It is what this country was built on.

Agree. Well said.

How will this affect our overseas recruiting success?