I am trying to get a grasp on the reason the Southland, and therefore my team, along with many other conferences dropped down to 1-AA after the 1981 season. I know The NCAA's Supreme Court case against Georgia and Oklahoma played a part, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_v._Boa..._Oklahoma.

I ran across an old thread started by arkstfan, that got into a little bit of detail, http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=25700.

I know the NCAA gave a deadline of 1982 for schools and conferences to decide. Some dropped willingly and some were made to by NCAA decree.

Any other information would be helpful.

Also, since Arkansas St was a member at the time, maybe arkstfan knows why the Independence Bowl didn't feature the SLC champ in 1981 and after. Did that play a part in why the SLC dropped? Many of the schools that went to 1-AA were indy's (like UNT and NELa, now UL-M). Were they forced down as well?

Any answers to these would be greatly appreciated and any other perspectives and information will be appreciated also.

(05-02-2013 07:29 AM)FoUTASportscaster Wrote:  I am trying to get a grasp on the reason the Southland, and therefore my team, along with many other conferences dropped down to 1-AA after the 1981 season. I know The NCAA's Supreme Court case against Georgia and Oklahoma played a part, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_v._Boa..._Oklahoma.

I ran across an old thread started by arkstfan, that got into a little bit of detail, http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=25700.

I know the NCAA gave a deadline of 1982 for schools and conferences to decide. Some dropped willingly and some were made to by NCAA decree.

Any other information would be helpful.

Also, since Arkansas St was a member at the time, maybe arkstfan knows why the Independence Bowl didn't feature the SLC champ in 1981 and after. Did that play a part in why the SLC dropped? Many of the schools that went to 1-AA were indy's (like UNT and NELa, now UL-M). Were they forced down as well?

Any answers to these would be greatly appreciated and any other perspectives and information will be appreciated also.

I dont really know all the answers to your questions, but I'd guess the Bowl thing after the move to 1-AA was due to 1-AA teams competing in Playoffs instead of Bowl games.

The force down moves may have been due to minium reqs on attendance levels, # of Scholarships etc. Just guessing on that though.

I know of a MAC program that received a letter just a few years ago from the NCAA telling them that they were no longer a FBS program due to not meeting the minum reqs for a few years - in which case that school had to file some paper work and bring themselves into compliance to avoid being forced out of an FBS conference and to the FCS and get back in good standing as an FBS program.

Didn't the NCAA also tell the MAC that they had to drop to 1-AA also, but they fought it in court
or threatened to do so?

I think it would be a good idea.

(05-02-2013 07:29 AM)FoUTASportscaster Wrote:  I am trying to get a grasp on the reason the Southland, and therefore my team, along with many other conferences dropped down to 1-AA after the 1981 season. I know The NCAA's Supreme Court case against Georgia and Oklahoma played a part, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_v._Boa..._Oklahoma.

I ran across an old thread started by arkstfan, that got into a little bit of detail, http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=25700.

I know the NCAA gave a deadline of 1982 for schools and conferences to decide. Some dropped willingly and some were made to by NCAA decree.

Any other information would be helpful.

Also, since Arkansas St was a member at the time, maybe arkstfan knows why the Independence Bowl didn't feature the SLC champ in 1981 and after. Did that play a part in why the SLC dropped? Many of the schools that went to 1-AA were indy's (like UNT and NELa, now UL-M). Were they forced down as well?

Any answers to these would be greatly appreciated and any other perspectives and information will be appreciated also.

Immediately after the 1981 season the stadium and attendance requirements that were an option to remain I-A for schools not sponsoring enough sports became the criteria. One waiver was for more than half of the league members to meet requirements.

In the Southland McNeese State and Louisiana met it. Arkansas State and La.Tech just barely missed. If the two had made it, Lamar and UTA would have made it.

There was nothing voluntary about it except for McNeese State and Yale agreeing to drop down.

^ Do you recall what the attendance and capacity requirements were?

(05-02-2013 09:00 AM)The4thOption Wrote:  

(05-02-2013 07:29 AM)FoUTASportscaster Wrote:  I am trying to get a grasp on the reason the Southland, and therefore my team, along with many other conferences dropped down to 1-AA after the 1981 season. I know The NCAA's Supreme Court case against Georgia and Oklahoma played a part, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_v._Boa..._Oklahoma.

I ran across an old thread started by arkstfan, that got into a little bit of detail, http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=25700.

I know the NCAA gave a deadline of 1982 for schools and conferences to decide. Some dropped willingly and some were made to by NCAA decree.

Any other information would be helpful.

Also, since Arkansas St was a member at the time, maybe arkstfan knows why the Independence Bowl didn't feature the SLC champ in 1981 and after. Did that play a part in why the SLC dropped? Many of the schools that went to 1-AA were indy's (like UNT and NELa, now UL-M). Were they forced down as well?

Any answers to these would be greatly appreciated and any other perspectives and information will be appreciated also.

I dont really know all the answers to your questions, but I'd guess the Bowl thing after the move to 1-AA was due to 1-AA teams competing in Playoffs instead of Bowl games.

The force down moves may have been due to minium reqs on attendance levels, # of Scholarships etc. Just guessing on that though.

I know of a MAC program that received a letter just a few years ago from the NCAA telling them that they were no longer a FBS program due to not meeting the minum reqs for a few years - in which case that school had to file some paper work and bring themselves into compliance to avoid being forced out of an FBS conference and to the FCS and get back in good standing as an FBS program.

No, the SLC champ (in this case UTA) in 1981 was in 1-A and did not play in a bowl game.

(05-02-2013 10:21 AM)FoUTASportscaster Wrote:  ^ Do you recall what the attendance and capacity requirements were?

Four ways to do it.
1. If your stadium had 30,000 or more seats. Average 17,000 paid attendance in one of the prior four years.
2. Less than 30,000 seats. Average 17,000 paid attendance over the past four years combined.
3. If your stadium had 30,000 or more seats. Average 20,000 paid HOME AND AWAY COMBINED in one of the four prior years.
4. If your stadium had less than 30,000 seats. Average 20,000 paid home and away combined over the past four years combined.

As to the I-Bowl. They had dropped the Southland tie after the 1980 game.

This is going to be a little long.

I-AA was created in 1978 as a "cost containment" level of football. The NCAA created sub division with hope conferences would move on their own thinking a lower number ot total sports, less scholarships and coaches would help struggling budgets. The center piece was the lure of playing for a national championship, but didn't convince everyone to take the plunge. The Missouri Valley, MAC, Southern and Southland held out. The NCAA then mandated attendance and stadium size requirements most of the holdouts couldn't meet. At the time many Big Ten schools scheduled MAC opponents and sponsored a waiver for the MAC to give them 10 years to reach the requirements. Much of the resistance had to do with TV revenues. As conferences were guaranteed a certain number of regionally televised games. Once that was wiped out the ides of "cost containment" became more relevant.

The NCAA had complete rights to college football TV rights and mandated each D-I conference get a certain number of regional and national appearances. In 1979 the CFA (College Football Assn) was formed by major college football programs to fight the NCAA for the right to negotiate their own TV contracts. The CFA and NBC and came to an agreement on August 8, 1981. The NCAA responded saying universities that participated in the CFA contract would face NCAA sanctions, not just in football, but in all other sports as well. The University of Oklahoma and the University of Georgia filed suit in the United States District Court seeking an injunction to prevent the NCAA from taking action against CFA members.

Ironically it was a game between App State & The Citadel that brought everything to a head. On September 26, 1981 Oklahoma and the University of Southern California, both ranked in the top 5, appeared on 200 stations in a regional broadcast. On the same weekend Georgia and South Carolina, also ranked in the Top 20, played but was not shown in the Southeast by ABC who televised the game between The Citadel and Appalachian State. ASU and The Citadel received the same amount of money as USC and Oklahoma per the NCAA contract with ABC.

Oklahoma and Southern Cal were not happy that ASU & The Citadel got the same payday. UGA & USC were not happy their game was not televised. Later in 1981 the courts ruled the the NCAA violated antitrust laws and issued a permanent injunction prohibiting the NCAA from interfering with the individual universities television contracts and declaring the NCAA-ABC contract null and void. The NCAA appealed all the way to the Supreme Court who upheld the ruling of the District Court.

With guaranteed NCAA TV money down the drain many conferences voluntarily made the move down to 1-AA.

(05-02-2013 10:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  As to the I-Bowl. They had dropped the Southland tie after the 1980 game.

Do you know why? I know they 1981 champ didn't play, because it was my team. I wonder if it was out of competitiveness, since they had dropped three in a row after winning the first two, or if it was to try and attract bigger-name schools.

(05-02-2013 10:44 AM)Wild Bill Kelso Wrote:  This is going to be a little long.

I-AA was created in 1978 as a "cost containment" level of football. The NCAA created sub division with hope conferences would move on their own thinking a lower number ot total sports, less scholarships and coaches would help struggling budgets. The center piece was the lure of playing for a national championship, but didn't convince everyone to take the plunge. The Missouri Valley, MAC, Southern and Southland held out. The NCAA then mandated attendance and stadium size requirements most of the holdouts couldn't meet. At the time many Big Ten schools scheduled MAC opponents and sponsored a waiver for the MAC to give them 10 years to reach the requirements. Much of the resistance had to do with TV revenues. As conferences were guaranteed a certain number of regionally televised games. Once that was wiped out the ides of "cost containment" became more relevant.

The NCAA had complete rights to college football TV rights and mandated each D-I conference get a certain number of regional and national appearances. In 1979 the CFA (College Football Assn) was formed by major college football programs to fight the NCAA for the right to negotiate their own TV contracts. The CFA and NBC and came to an agreement on August 8, 1981. The NCAA responded saying universities that participated in the CFA contract would face NCAA sanctions, not just in football, but in all other sports as well. The University of Oklahoma and the University of Georgia filed suit in the United States District Court seeking an injunction to prevent the NCAA from taking action against CFA members.

Ironically it was a game between App State & The Citadel that brought everything to a head. On September 26, 1981 Oklahoma and the University of Southern California, both ranked in the top 5, appeared on 200 stations in a regional broadcast. On the same weekend Georgia and South Carolina, also ranked in the Top 20, played but was not shown in the Southeast by ABC who televised the game between The Citadel and Appalachian State. ASU and The Citadel received the same amount of money as USC and Oklahoma per the NCAA contract with ABC.

Oklahoma and Southern Cal were not happy that ASU & The Citadel got the same payday. UGA & USC were not happy their game was not televised. Later in 1981 the courts ruled the the NCAA violated antitrust laws and issued a permanent injunction prohibiting the NCAA from interfering with the individual universities television contracts and declaring the NCAA-ABC contract null and void. The NCAA appealed all the way to the Supreme Court who upheld the ruling of the District Court.

With guaranteed NCAA TV money down the drain many conferences voluntarily made the move down to 1-AA.

Let me also add that this was a big reason UTA would eventually drop their program.

Thanks for the info. It is starting to make a little more sense.

(05-02-2013 11:00 AM)FoUTASportscaster Wrote:  

(05-02-2013 10:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  As to the I-Bowl. They had dropped the Southland tie after the 1980 game.

Do you know why?

Visions of grandeur.

At one point a few years later they proposed a three year rotation moving the game between Shreveport, Little Rock, and Jackson who all said no thanks because it was a money pit. Later got their house in order.

Is it fair to say the MAC owes the Big 10 big time for keeping them 1A?

(05-02-2013 12:07 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Is it fair to say the MAC owes the Big 10 big time for keeping them 1A?

The MAC is why the Big 10 does not have to scheadule FCS teams. MAC FBS in name only.

Be careful what you say. You could insert SBC and SEC in that statement and find agreement amongst many people.

(05-02-2013 12:29 PM)FoUTASportscaster Wrote:  Be careful what you say. You could insert SBC and SEC in that statement and find agreement amongst many people.

You could say that BAMA is top dog in the SEC and they have lost to a Sun Belt team. When was the last time a MAC team beat Michagan or Ohio St. the top dogs of the Big 10.

(05-02-2013 12:29 PM)FoUTASportscaster Wrote:  Be careful what you say. You could insert SBC and SEC in that statement and find agreement amongst many people.

Historically though it seems the Big 10 has looked after the MAC in regards to keeping them 1A. The same cannot be said of the Sunbelt as they have a much shorter 1A/FBS football history.

(05-02-2013 12:36 PM)ValleyBoy Wrote:  

(05-02-2013 12:29 PM)FoUTASportscaster Wrote:  Be careful what you say. You could insert SBC and SEC in that statement and find agreement amongst many people.

You could say that BAMA is top dog in the SEC and they have lost to a Sun Belt team. When was the last time a MAC team beat Michagan or Ohio St. the top dogs of the Big 10.

Toledo beat Michigan a year after App beat them. The Michigan fans I know feel this was a bigger blow than App's win, which could passed off as a fluke a lot easier.

(05-02-2013 12:36 PM)ValleyBoy Wrote:  

(05-02-2013 12:29 PM)FoUTASportscaster Wrote:  Be careful what you say. You could insert SBC and SEC in that statement and find agreement amongst many people.

You could say that BAMA is top dog in the SEC and they have lost to a Sun Belt team. When was the last time a MAC team beat Michagan or Ohio St. the top dogs of the Big 10.

Bama wasn't the Top Dog at that time. And the MAC won against the Big 10 last year if I'm not mistaken. I get your point but you are really reaching on this one.

Sure would have been a different world if the NCAA had won that law suit.