(04-04-2013 04:06 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Oh right...it fits your narrative better if you combine them. I should have known.

rwt not owning up to another mistake. so typical.

(04-04-2013 04:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Other than the manager, there is no job at McDonald's where the economic contribution of the worker is worth $15/hour or more. If employees have to be paid that much, the jobs will disappear. Why is this simple concept so hard to grasp?

greed, envy, willful denial...take your pick.

(04-04-2013 04:25 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The problem is that you're looking at where they work instead of what they do. Something tells me you wouldn't take a full time job like that for that little amount of money. I didn't read all the article so I don't know how long they've worked there. If they've been there awhile and are valued, dependable employees, then they probably deserve it. But no, a starting wage like that would be excessive.

Tom it's flipping burgers and I have put in my time working fast food. If I had no employment opportunities elsewhere you're damn skippy I would take that job.

I've stacked and sorted archived library books for 7$ an hour and I've worked fast food... Trust me the library is worse and yet, if its all I could muster, I would do it.

In your ignorance, did not read the article, you accuse me of being ignorant? Gosh that's tasty irony...

If you make buger flipping 15$ an hour you will speed up the automation of those jobs and add shrink opportunity for unemployment..

(04-04-2013 04:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Other than the manager, there is no job at McDonald's where the economic contribution of the worker is worth $15/hour or more. If employees have to be paid that much, the jobs will disappear. Why is this simple concept so hard to grasp?

I learned this in economics. One of the first things they show you is why a minimum wage creates loss and leads to higher unemployment. A market set wage is the most efficient. If the market can create a $15/hr burger flipper wage, then I'm okay with it.

(04-04-2013 04:52 PM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Other than the manager, there is no job at McDonald's where the economic contribution of the worker is worth $15/hour or more. If employees have to be paid that much, the jobs will disappear. Why is this simple concept so hard to grasp?

I learned this in economics. One of the first things they show you is why a minimum wage creates loss and leads to higher unemployment. A market set wage is the most efficient. If the market can create a $15/hr burger flipper wage, then I'm okay with it.

So it's a bad thing when a union demands higher wages?

(04-04-2013 04:49 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:25 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The problem is that you're looking at where they work instead of what they do. Something tells me you wouldn't take a full time job like that for that little amount of money. I didn't read all the article so I don't know how long they've worked there. If they've been there awhile and are valued, dependable employees, then they probably deserve it. But no, a starting wage like that would be excessive.

Tom it's flipping burgers and I have put in my time working fast food. If I had no employment opportunities elsewhere you're damn skippy I would take that job.

I've stacked and sorted archived library books for 7$ an hour and I've worked fast food... Trust me the library is worse and yet, if its all I could muster, I would do it.

In your ignorance, did not read the article, you accuse me of being ignorant? Gosh that's tasty irony...

If you make buger flipping 15$ an hour you will speed up the automation of those jobs and add shrink opportunity for unemployment..

I also would take a fast food job...maybe 2 of them if that is what it took. It would not be the first time for me. I was one hell of frycook.

(04-04-2013 04:39 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:33 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:21 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:14 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  Maybe if it was expensive people would stop eating that ****.

It would raise the price of the food. But then people wouldn't buy it and employees would be let go.

I dont really care about the employees. If making it more expensive meant people ate it less often and had less medical issues due to the long term effects of eating nothing but **** then our health care costs would be much lower.

So in the interest of public health we'd all be better off if the fast food joints simply shut down, is that how far you'd take this?

Did I say anywhere that I wanted the government to shut these restaurants down in the interest of public health? No, I didn't. People are free to make choices. Some of those choices are good and some are bad. At the same time, other people should be allowed to profit off of those decisions.

Because I think that people shouldn't be dumbasses and eat McDonalds all the time doesn't mean I think the government should ban McDonalds. Of course, I also think that health care should cost more for those that smoke, drink, eat ****, and don't exercise....on a private level.

(04-04-2013 04:55 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:49 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:25 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The problem is that you're looking at where they work instead of what they do. Something tells me you wouldn't take a full time job like that for that little amount of money. I didn't read all the article so I don't know how long they've worked there. If they've been there awhile and are valued, dependable employees, then they probably deserve it. But no, a starting wage like that would be excessive.

Tom it's flipping burgers and I have put in my time working fast food. If I had no employment opportunities elsewhere you're damn skippy I would take that job.

I've stacked and sorted archived library books for 7$ an hour and I've worked fast food... Trust me the library is worse and yet, if its all I could muster, I would do it.

In your ignorance, did not read the article, you accuse me of being ignorant? Gosh that's tasty irony...

If you make buger flipping 15$ an hour you will speed up the automation of those jobs and add shrink opportunity for unemployment..

I also would take a fast food job...maybe 2 of them if that is what it took. It would not be the first time for me. I was one hell of frycook.

But there is no skill set like a fry cook might have. Everything in a fast food joint is programmed; put a burger here and take it out there. Put the fries here, hit the timer and take them out when it goes off. Where is the skill?

(04-04-2013 04:54 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:52 PM)pharaoh0 Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Other than the manager, there is no job at McDonald's where the economic contribution of the worker is worth $15/hour or more. If employees have to be paid that much, the jobs will disappear. Why is this simple concept so hard to grasp?

I learned this in economics. One of the first things they show you is why a minimum wage creates loss and leads to higher unemployment. A market set wage is the most efficient. If the market can create a $15/hr burger flipper wage, then I'm okay with it.

So it's a bad thing when a union demands higher wages?

A union is free to demand whatever they want. The business in this case is also free to tell that union to go **** themselves.

(04-04-2013 04:57 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:39 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:33 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:21 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:14 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  Maybe if it was expensive people would stop eating that ****.

It would raise the price of the food. But then people wouldn't buy it and employees would be let go.

I dont really care about the employees. If making it more expensive meant people ate it less often and had less medical issues due to the long term effects of eating nothing but **** then our health care costs would be much lower.

So in the interest of public health we'd all be better off if the fast food joints simply shut down, is that how far you'd take this?

Did I say anywhere that I wanted the government to shut these restaurants down in the interest of public health? No, I didn't. People are free to make choices. Some of those choices are good and some are bad. At the same time, other people should be allowed to profit off of those decisions.

Because I think that people shouldn't be dumbasses and eat McDonalds all the time doesn't mean I think the government should ban McDonalds. Of course, I also think that health care should cost more for those that smoke, drink, eat ****, and don't exercise....on a private level.

Sorry bro, but your post could have been taken as somewhat Bloombergesque.

(04-04-2013 04:06 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Oh right...it fits your narrative better if you combine them. I should have known.

Serious question for you, Tom....

Should someone whose skills only lend themselves to being a fry cook be living on their own? If they are living on their own, what should their bills be? 31k generates virtually no taxes, but let's go ahead and say they earn 25k after taxes. call it 2100/mo. Rent can be anywhere from 400-1200, even living on their own... let's say 800. leaves 1300. 300 for a car. 200 for gas. 100 for car insurance (because lord knows they can't ride the bus to McDonalds). 200 for groceries and 100 for a cell phone and basic cable. They STILL have $400 left over... and I haven't touched any social services, other than healthcare.

Oh yeah... not only should they be able to live on their own, but they should be able to support a family on their "basic" skills.

THAT is where your argument falls flat. When you decide that a person whose skills only lend themselves to a minimum wage job should be able to support a family on their skills. I know you'll trot out the guy with more skills who takes the job because that is all that is available... and where I tell you that you can supliment THAT guy for a short time and improve the economy so there are more jobs that utilize his skills, rather than just pay EVERYONE more because of the one "tough-luck" guy.

(04-04-2013 05:03 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:57 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:39 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:33 PM)aTxTIGER Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 04:21 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  It would raise the price of the food. But then people wouldn't buy it and employees would be let go.

I dont really care about the employees. If making it more expensive meant people ate it less often and had less medical issues due to the long term effects of eating nothing but **** then our health care costs would be much lower.

So in the interest of public health we'd all be better off if the fast food joints simply shut down, is that how far you'd take this?

Did I say anywhere that I wanted the government to shut these restaurants down in the interest of public health? No, I didn't. People are free to make choices. Some of those choices are good and some are bad. At the same time, other people should be allowed to profit off of those decisions.

Because I think that people shouldn't be dumbasses and eat McDonalds all the time doesn't mean I think the government should ban McDonalds. Of course, I also think that health care should cost more for those that smoke, drink, eat ****, and don't exercise....on a private level.

Sorry bro, but your post could have been taken as somewhat Bloombergesque.

Understood, but that wasnt my intention.

Until they can get a simple order right and COUNT change, they aren't EARNING minimum wage.

Let's put this in perspective...

Some jobs which would be doing worse than McDonalds workers under this proposal..


Textile, Apparel, and Furnishings Workers
Farming, Fishing, and Forestry Occupations
Nursing, Psychiatric, and Home Health Aides
Cooks, Institution and Cafeteria
Personal Care and Service Occupations
Helpers--Production Workers
Veterinary Assistants and Laboratory Animal Caretakers
Janitors and Cleaners, Except Maids and Housekeeping Cleaners
Ambulance Drivers and Attendants, Except Emergency Medical Technicians
Slaughterers and Meat Packers
Bakers
Taxi Drivers and Chauffeurs
Bicycle Repairers
Retail Salespersons
Physical Therapist Aides
Textile Cutting Machine Setters, Operators, and Tenders
Baggage Porters, Bellhops, and Concierges
Textile Bleaching and Dyeing Machine Operators and Tenders
Floral Designers
Shoe Machine Operators and Tenders
Nursing Assistants
Building and Grounds Cleaning and Maintenance Occupations
Orderlies
Library Assistants, Clerical
Gaming Change Persons and Booth Cashiers
Tellers
Landscaping and Groundskeeping Workers
Shoe and Leather Workers
Textile Winding, Twisting, and Drawing Out Machine Setters, Operators, and Tenders
Shoe and Leather Workers and Repairers
Gaming Cage Workers
Textile Machine Setters, Operators, and Tenders
Models
Photographic Process Workers and Processing Machine Operators
Butchers and Other Meat, Poultry, and Fish Processing Workers
Tour Guides and Escorts
Personal Appearance Workers
Door-to-Door Sales Workers, News and Street Vendors, and Related Workers
Helpers--Painters, Paperhangers, Plasterers, and Stucco Masons
Food Processing Workers
Miscellaneous Vehicle and Mobile Equipment Mechanics, Installers, and Repairers
Laborers and Freight, Stock, and Material Movers, Hand
Grounds Maintenance Workers
Residential Advisors
Gaming Service Workers, All Other
Cutters and Trimmers, Hand
Psychiatric Aides
Hairdressers, Hairstylists, and Cosmetologists
Helpers--Installation, Maintenance, and Repair Workers
Barbers, Hairdressers, Hairstylists and Cosmetologists
Switchboard Operators, Including Answering Service
Counter and Rental Clerks
Textile Knitting and Weaving Machine Setters, Operators, and Tenders
Couriers and Messengers
Receptionists and Information Clerks
Other Transportation Workers
Helpers--Carpenters
Security Guards
Material Moving Workers
Entertainment Attendants and Related Workers, All Other
Agricultural Equipment Operators
Helpers, Construction Trades, All Other
Tour and Travel Guides
Barbers
Sawing Machine Setters, Operators, and Tenders, Wood
Miscellaneous Protective Service Workers
Driver/Sales Workers
Communications Equipment Operators
Miscellaneous Food Processing Workers
Healthcare Support Occupations
Other Protective Service Workers
Cooks, Private Household
Woodworking Machine Setters, Operators, and Tenders
File Clerks
Models, Demonstrators, and Product Promoters
Food Cooking Machine Operators and Tenders
Woodworking Machine Setters, Operators, and Tenders, Except Sawing
Mail Clerks and Mail Machine Operators, Except Postal Service
Packaging and Filling Machine Operators and Tenders
Demonstrators and Product Promoters
Helpers, Construction Trades
Miscellaneous Production Workers
Cleaning, Washing, and Metal Pickling Equipment Operators and Tenders
Food Batchmakers
Helpers--Pipelayers, Plumbers, Pipefitters, and Steamfitters
Tailors, Dressmakers, and Sewers
Fabric Menders, Except Garment
Forest and Conservation Workers
Dietetic Technicians
Machine Feeders and Offbearers
Counter and Rental Clerks and Parts Salespersons
Helpers--Electricians
Merchandise Displayers and Window Trimmers
Textile, Apparel, and Furnishings Workers, All Other
Timing Device Assemblers and Adjusters
Assemblers and Fabricators, All Other
Agricultural Workers, All Other
Bus Drivers, School or Special Client
Tailors, Dressmakers, and Custom Sewers
Data Entry Keyers
Grinding and Polishing Workers, Hand
Office Clerks, General
Painting, Coating, and Decorating Workers
Concierges
Building Cleaning Workers, All Other
Substitute Teachers
Office Machine Operators, Except Computer
Food and Tobacco Roasting, Baking, and Drying Machine Operators and Tenders
Weighers, Measurers, Checkers, and Samplers, Recordkeeping
Miscellaneous Assemblers and Fabricators
Ophthalmic Laboratory Technicians
Occupational Therapy Aides
Team Assemblers
Furniture Finishers
Fiberglass Laminators and Fabricators
Butchers and Meat Cutters
Cooling and Freezing Equipment Operators and Tenders
Woodworkers
Miscellaneous Woodworkers
Woodworkers, All Other
Manufactured Building and Mobile Home Installers
Etchers and Engravers
Animal Trainers
Recreation and Fitness Workers
Production Workers, All Other
Other Office and Administrative Support Workers
Molding, Coremaking, and Casting Machine Setters, Operators, and Tenders, Metal and Plastic
Pharmacy Technicians
Molders and Molding Machine Setters, Operators, and Tenders, Metal and Plastic
Medical Assistants
Grounds Maintenance Workers, All Other
Miscellaneous Religious Workers
Religious Workers, All Other
Shipping, Receiving, and Traffic Clerks
Preschool Teachers, Except Special Education
Molders, Shapers, and Casters, Except Metal and Plastic
Social and Human Service Assistants
Phlebotomists
Assemblers and Fabricators
Electrical and Electronic Equipment Assemblers
Helpers--Brickmasons, Blockmasons, Stonemasons, and Tile and Marble Setters
Cutting, Punching, and Press Machine Setters, Operators, and Tenders, Metal and Plastic

The thing these workers haven't thought about is what if they are successful. Do they really think they will keep their jobs? Bull-in-Exile has a nice list of people that make less. If I am a fast-food joint owner, why would I keep minimum wage caliber employees when I can now attract from better workers, given my new pay amount. I would probably fire all of them if I had to pay $15/hr. This is what happened to high school kids when the minimum wage was raised. At the higher salary, employers were willing to forego these workers in favor of older, more seasoned employees.

The market should set wages. If your job is more skilled and less people can do it, you will make more money. If a trained monkey can do your job, you are going to make very little. If you don't like it, then do something to better yourself instead of trying to steal money from your employer that you did not earn.

If a McDonald's fry cook is making $15/hr, how much should the person who disinfects your hospital room? How about the person who handles your medical specimens and assists the nurse... and "maintains" the doctor and his office and monitors the telemetry station? How about the pharmacy tech? All of those people have your LIFE, and not your next meal in their hands.

and how does that translate into healthcare costs?

My point being, there are a LOT of people in a hospital making much less than $15 and many of those who make $15 or slightly above are highly skilled and valuable... and the government is telling THEM they make too much money.

And don't anyone BS me about what doctors make. My doc today billed 15 patients $198 each for a 30-45 minute encounter... Medicare pays $28 per encounter. Let's be generous and call that $40/hr... and remember that unlike the McDonald's worker, that includes taxes and benefits (the doc is a contractor)... but the hospital DOES cover his malpractice here... and in addition to practicing medicine, he has to manage all of the paperwork to make sure that he gets paid etc etc etc. Let's assume that only takes 1 hour per 12 hour shift... unpaid...

We're paying doctors about $30/hour equivalent and telling them that is too much, but a fry cook deserves $15... not to mention that I'm still waiting for someone to tell me where any "economies of scale" play into this equation.... Unless you are going to have doctors spend even less time with patients, or allow 1 nurse to support 7 patients instead of 5, without affecting quality.

If you just think about that poor fry cook as if that is all he can ever do, then I suppose I can imagine someone can think of "minimum wage" as a living wage... but when you think of all of the other things that it impacts, and how it compares, It's just crazy.

and I haven't even talked about the implications on food costs if a marginally trained cook in front of a computerized fryer and a microwave, not even a trained chef is paid $15/hr.

Quote:The market should set wages. If your job is more skilled and less people can do it, you will make more money. If a trained monkey can do your job, you are going to make very little. If you don't like it, then do something to better yourself instead of trying to steal money from your employer that you did not earn.

This x2!

At $15/hour, those that order a Big Mac should get a happy ending.....

Economics is one heck of an important field. It's even more important that people understand the impact of raising the minimum wage.

Neoclassical economic model (understand that the Suppliers are employees and that companies are the Demanders. Oh, and that blue colored part is a surplus of employees which is called unemployment):


Now, there are some arguments against the neoclassical model of economics but I'm too tired to get into that.

(04-04-2013 04:00 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(04-04-2013 03:48 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Yup... That won't eliminate jobs!

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest...uble-wages

Quote:Employees from familiar chains such as McDonald's Corp , Burger King and Yum Inc's KFC are seeking to roughly double their hourly wage to $15. They also say they want the right to form a union without interference.

Winning such concessions will be an uphill battle. Low-wage, low-skill workers lack political clout and face significantly higher unemployment than college graduates.

So two fast food workers in NYC should be making 60-65 K a year?

#mathfail...lol

15 x 40 x 52 = $31,200

#readfail
#mathfail

he said two workers....