(03-30-2013 04:35 PM)Memphis Owl Wrote:  

(03-30-2013 01:17 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Luhnow helped build a good minor league system for the Cards, but he did not do it alone. Nor is the Cards' success due only to the minor league development. Judicious free agent signings and trades by Mozeliak also have been critical. One of the criticisms of Luhnow was his determination to hold onto high draft picks that could be traded (the "Farberge eggs" syndrome) even after major league management, including LaRussa and Duncan), had rejected them. For every Allen Craig, there's also been a Brett Wallace or Tyler Greene. I'm not saying he will be a failure here, but the jury is still out. What I see in the rest of the operation is not encouraging.

As for the AL move, I too am a Cards fans since childhood. But I have lived in Houston and always rooted for the Stros second. I just think that the forced move against the fans' desires was heinous. The only way fans can protest is to vote with their wallets, which they appear intent on doing. Selig's recent comments just insult everyone's intelligence. I would find it hard to spend any money on the Astros at this point and many of my Houston friends have said they feel the same.

Problem is that any type of boycott will only hurt the Astros and Houston. It can be argued that the Astros are as much a victim as the fan base itself. The new ownership did not have much choice here.

I did protest by not attending Astros games after the Astros ownership (McLane?) chose not to resign Nolan Ryan.

I don't agree on that "much choice" business. There were 600 million plus reasons for the other owners to let the team stay in the NL. Crane could have been a hero if he had insisted on it.

Nevertheless, there is no law that Houston fans have to support a team and league that disrespects them. We saw that with the Oilers and now there is a much better product to root for.

(03-30-2013 11:06 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  

(03-30-2013 04:35 PM)Memphis Owl Wrote:  

(03-30-2013 01:17 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Luhnow helped build a good minor league system for the Cards, but he did not do it alone. Nor is the Cards' success due only to the minor league development. Judicious free agent signings and trades by Mozeliak also have been critical. One of the criticisms of Luhnow was his determination to hold onto high draft picks that could be traded (the "Farberge eggs" syndrome) even after major league management, including LaRussa and Duncan), had rejected them. For every Allen Craig, there's also been a Brett Wallace or Tyler Greene. I'm not saying he will be a failure here, but the jury is still out. What I see in the rest of the operation is not encouraging.

As for the AL move, I too am a Cards fans since childhood. But I have lived in Houston and always rooted for the Stros second. I just think that the forced move against the fans' desires was heinous. The only way fans can protest is to vote with their wallets, which they appear intent on doing. Selig's recent comments just insult everyone's intelligence. I would find it hard to spend any money on the Astros at this point and many of my Houston friends have said they feel the same.

Problem is that any type of boycott will only hurt the Astros and Houston. It can be argued that the Astros are as much a victim as the fan base itself. The new ownership did not have much choice here.

I did protest by not attending Astros games after the Astros ownership (McLane?) chose not to resign Nolan Ryan.

I don't agree on that "much choice" business. There were 600 million plus reasons for the other owners to let the team stay in the NL. Crane could have been a hero if he had insisted on it.

Nevertheless, there is no law that Houston fans have to support a team and league that disrespects them. We saw that with the Oilers and now there is a much better product to root for.

If by "a better product", you mean that the Texans are better than the Oilers, that assertion is laughable. The Texans won a couple of division titles by default, but it would not surprise me if Indy were to pass them this season. The Oilers won 2 AFL championships in their first two seasons, and played in 2 more title games, all within their first 10 years of existence. Later, they had 2 good eras: first, with Earl Campbell, and later with Warren Moon. This includes 2 AFC title games. Many people don't remember that the Oilers had accumulated the best talent in the league by the early 90's, but the first wave of free agency decimated the franchise.

And with McNair, Kubiak, and Schaub, the Texans already have had their best seasons. I predict at least another decade before they win a total of two playoff games.

I listened to a local sportscaster tonight lamenting how things were terrible now that we no longer had an owner like Drayton who would do what it took to keep the team in contention. I really don't understand the local media's love affair with Drayton.

Drayton inherited a scouting and player development system that was producing the likes of Craig Biggio, Bobby Abreu, and Johan Santana, and had added Jeff Bagwell through trade. He rode two Hall of Famers--and got out of the first round of the playoffs a grand total of twice--and screwed up everything else. He put a hard salary cap on the major league roster, and then would go out and spend half of it on 2-3 players, so that even the good Astros teams were giving more plate appearances and more innings pitched to sub-replacement level players than any other team save perennial losers Pittsburgh and Kansas City. He destroyed that scouting and player development system. During 2008-11, the Astros minor league affiliates had the worst combined record of any team's farms 3 out of 4 tyears, were 29th of 30 in the other year, and finished 30 games behind the 29th best system in 2011. And they did it with players who were a year older than league average up and down the system, meaning they were even worse prospects than that dismal record would indicate.

In 2012, the farm system record went from worst to first, helped by a good draft and trades for prospects. They're still older than league average, so don't get too excited just yet. But some of those kids will become players, and the Astros will be better when they do. I would not be shocked if a couple of the kids get to the majors later this year and start helping out.

They're probably going to be terrible this year, maybe even record-breaking. But they weren't going to be any good anyway. Would they have really been anywhere near .500 with Hunter Pence and Wandy, and Bourne gone to free agency? And a big league club that sucks but the minor league teams are smoking means help is in the way and things will get better, while a big league team that sucks with minor league teams that are worse means help isn't and they won't.

(03-30-2013 11:49 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I listened to a local sportscaster tonight lamenting how things were terrible now that we no longer had an owner like Drayton who would do what it took to keep the team in contention. I really don't understand the local media's love affair with Drayton.

Drayton inherited a scouting and player development system that was producing the likes of Craig Biggio, Bobby Abreu, and Johan Santana, and had added Jeff Bagwell through trade. He rode two Hall of Famers--and got out of the first round of the playoffs a grand total of twice--and screwed up everything else. He put a hard salary cap on the major league roster, and then would go out and spend half of it on 2-3 players, so that even the good Astros teams were giving more plate appearances and more innings pitched to sub-replacement level players than any other team save perennial losers Pittsburgh and Kansas City. He destroyed that scouting and player development system. During 2008-11, the Astros minor league affiliates had the worst combined record of any team's farms 3 out of 4 tyears, were 29th of 30 in the other year, and finished 30 games behind the 29th best system in 2011. And they did it with players who were a year older than league average up and down the system, meaning they were even worse prospects than that dismal record would indicate.

In 2012, the farm system record went from worst to first, helped by a good draft and trades for prospects. They're still older than league average, so don't get too excited just yet. But some of those kids will become players, and the Astros will be better when they do. I would not be shocked if a couple of the kids get to the majors later this year and start helping out.

They're probably going to be terrible this year, maybe even record-breaking. But they weren't going to be any good anyway. Would they have really been anywhere near .500 with Hunter Pence and Wandy, and Bourne gone to free agency? And a big league club that sucks but the minor league teams are smoking means help is in the way and things will get better, while a big league tem that sucks with minor league teams that are worse means help isn't and they won't.

I agree with all of your thoughts on McLane. However, I think it was unwise to eliminate Hunter Pence. He was still relatively young, and was very popular in the community. There now is no one on the team with whom the fans can relate. It might have cost them some prospects by not trading him, but people who get excited about minor leaguers remind me of those who love college football signing day. It's so easy to be optimistic about potential.

(03-30-2013 08:37 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I actually think the Astros might be a lot better this year than people expect and might even win as many as 65 games.

I have 64 in the SABR pot. But I think that's a few high, I just figure my chances of winning are a bit better if I go contrarian.

I think they'll be pretty bad the first half of the year, but I think some of the kids will be ready by mid-season, and as those guys start to break in they'll get better.

(03-31-2013 12:05 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-30-2013 08:37 PM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  I actually think the Astros might be a lot better this year than people expect and might even win as many as 65 games.

I have 64 in the SABR pot. But I think that's a few high, I just figure my chances of winning are a bit better if I go contrarian.

I think they'll be pretty bad the first half of the year, but I think some of the kids will be ready by mid-season, and as those guys start to break in they'll get better.

I took 53 in my pool.

(03-31-2013 12:04 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  I agree with all of your thoughts on McLane. However, I think it was unwise to eliminate Hunter Pence. He was still relatively young, and was very popular in the community. There now is no one on the team with whom the fans can relate. It might have cost them some prospects by not trading him, but people who get excited about minor leaguers remind me of those who love college football signing day. It's so easy to be optimistic about potential.

As one who is consistently critical of signing day excitement, I have to concede the point to some extent. But it's not like this team was going to be any good if they had kept the older guys, including Pence. For Pence they got Jonathan Singleton, Jared Cosart, Josh Zeid, and Domingo Santana. Singleton is typically ranked in the top 20 prospects in the game (if he can stay off marijuana) and Cosart in the top 50. Pence declined pretty significantly last year (career low OPS of .743) and does so many things in unorthodox fashion that early decline is a significant risk. And remember, the Pence trade was a McLane/Ed Wade deal, not a Crane/Luhnow deal.

I'd rather have a team that wins 85-90 over a team that wins 55-60, obviously. But that was never going to be the choice here. This was nothing like breaking up the Marlins after they won the World Series. The choice was to win 70 with no prospects on the farm, or 55-60 with a loaded farm system. And given that choice, blow it up and get the corner turned on the rebuilding process sooner.

Crane and Luhnow have gone "all in" with the idea of doing this through scouting and player development, with a considerable dose of sabermetrics thrown in for good measure. I think that has a better chance of success than where they were headed.

(03-30-2013 08:38 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(03-30-2013 04:30 PM)Memphis Owl Wrote:  I will never accept that it needed to be HOUSTON to be moved from the NL to the AL.

1) Milwaukee could have been moved from the NL back to the AL.

2) Colorado came into the NL after refusing to be in the AL when they were awarded an expansion franchise.

3) Milwaukee, Colorado, and Arizona all have shorter tenures in the NL than Houston.

And don't forget Washington -- an American League city for 6 decades or so.

But none of those teams had owners who had both the desire and the opportunity to throw their city under the bus. Houston did.

What!!???

Twice the owners of the Washington Senators (Clark Griffith and Bob Short) tossed the Nation's Capital under D.C. Transit carriages ... leaving after the 1960 and 1971 seasons for Minneapolis (Twins) and Arlington (Rangers), respectively.

(03-30-2013 11:42 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  

(03-30-2013 11:06 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  

(03-30-2013 04:35 PM)Memphis Owl Wrote:  

(03-30-2013 01:17 PM)NolaOwl Wrote:  Luhnow helped build a good minor league system for the Cards, but he did not do it alone. Nor is the Cards' success due only to the minor league development. Judicious free agent signings and trades by Mozeliak also have been critical. One of the criticisms of Luhnow was his determination to hold onto high draft picks that could be traded (the "Farberge eggs" syndrome) even after major league management, including LaRussa and Duncan), had rejected them. For every Allen Craig, there's also been a Brett Wallace or Tyler Greene. I'm not saying he will be a failure here, but the jury is still out. What I see in the rest of the operation is not encouraging.

As for the AL move, I too am a Cards fans since childhood. But I have lived in Houston and always rooted for the Stros second. I just think that the forced move against the fans' desires was heinous. The only way fans can protest is to vote with their wallets, which they appear intent on doing. Selig's recent comments just insult everyone's intelligence. I would find it hard to spend any money on the Astros at this point and many of my Houston friends have said they feel the same.

Problem is that any type of boycott will only hurt the Astros and Houston. It can be argued that the Astros are as much a victim as the fan base itself. The new ownership did not have much choice here.

I did protest by not attending Astros games after the Astros ownership (McLane?) chose not to resign Nolan Ryan.

I don't agree on that "much choice" business. There were 600 million plus reasons for the other owners to let the team stay in the NL. Crane could have been a hero if he had insisted on it.

Nevertheless, there is no law that Houston fans have to support a team and league that disrespects them. We saw that with the Oilers and now there is a much better product to root for.

If by "a better product", you mean that the Texans are better than the Oilers, that assertion is laughable. The Texans won a couple of division titles by default, but it would not surprise me if Indy were to pass them this season. The Oilers won 2 AFL championships in their first two seasons, and played in 2 more title games, all within their first 10 years of existence. Later, they had 2 good eras: first, with Earl Campbell, and later with Warren Moon. This includes 2 AFC title games. Many people don't remember that the Oilers had accumulated the best talent in the league by the early 90's, but the first wave of free agency decimated the franchise.

And with McNair, Kubiak, and Schaub, the Texans already have had their best seasons. I predict at least another decade before they win a total of two playoff games.

I was referring to the last few years before the move to Tennessee. And, would Reliant have been built for Bud Adams to play in? Doubtful. Bud alienated the fans much as Crane has done.